Christmas is Getting Earlier Every Year

[Jenyar]

Trilarian, you're English, right? Have you ever tried to make the same argument using Hebrew or Egyptian, or even Biblical Greek? Do you think your similarities will still exist in the original languages?

But your key claim seems to be that "Modern Christianity is more strongly influenced by Egyptian mythology than by the mythology of the Jews", which is easily refuted. Please read this article by atheist Richard Carrier. And you also might like to compare your story with the Egyptian Book of the Dead, which tells the story of Horus and his parents (who was "Meri" and "Jo-Sep"?).

Remember that the Jews had just come out of Egypt when they began writing down their history. They knew the difference between their expected Messiah (which means "Anointed" in Hebrew. "Christ" in Greek) and the Egyptian gods.

Is Santa Claus more real than God, just as real or less real? Remember, it may be different for a kid than an adult.

Just as real for those who believe in him. Here's another question: does spiderman exist or not?

 

[charles cure]

Charles have you read my posts? Haven’t i made it clear that i do not celebrate christmas? You ask me why Christianity replaced it's own holidays with pagan ones. I tell you true Christianity never adopted pagan holidays. I am against that religion that calls itself Christianity that took on pagan holidays. You ask if the truth should have been enough, Yes the truth was and is enough to those who embrace the truth. For others who do not embrace the truth the traditions of man are very important. My faith is my faith and it is not the faith of many of those who call themselves Christians.





The catholic church started when a group of false Christians decided disregard The teachings of Jesus and decided to follow and support Constantine to become emperor of the roman empire. Jesus said love your enemies. To take worldly power required killing your enemies a basic break from the teachings of Jesus was made. Anyone who calls themselves a Christian but supports physical warfare and killing of others is not a follower of the Messiah Jesus. This man made religion has been in league with worldly power ever since then. It is not the Only church that serves the satanic powers that rule on earth this harlot has many daughters. The claim that Peter established the catholic church is just that, a claim. The truth made glaringly obvious by the total disregard of the teachings of Jesus makes this claim a lie. Many who have read the Message have seen this and they have got out of her.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

so youre saying that you know "the truth" of jesus's teachings better than people that lived in his own time and knew him. thats interesting. how is it that you have come into that kind of knowledge?

by the way, emperor constantine was not a christian until he was on his deathbed. he was a worshiper of the pagan sun deity and only made christianity the official religion of the empire because he was obsessed with keeping it united and saw the rise in wealth and power of the new christian church as a convenient instrument of acheiving that goal. in addition to that, the story about how he had a vision of a shield with a cross on it and heard a voice say "under this sign ye shall conquer" is of dubious origin, and was probably added later to make constantine look like he was doing more than pretending to be christian as a means to a political end. the catholic church most definitely existed in some sense before that, all he did was enable the various sects to be brought together under that one banner. learn some history.

 

[Trilairian]

Trilarian, you're English, right? Have you ever tried to make the same argument using Hebrew or Egyptian, or even Biblical Greek? Do you think your similarities will still exist in the original languages?

I am using them in that I am subtley expounding on them. The english Mary in this particular case came from meri a pronunciation of the godess Meh. Jo was hebrew for god or Lord a title that when used to say god Sep in Hebrew becomes Jo-Sep or Jo-Seph. ...

But your key claim seems to be that "Modern Christianity is more strongly influenced by Egyptian mythology than by the mythology of the Jews", which is easily refuted.

No it isn't.

Please read this article by atheist Richard Carrier. And you also might like to compare your story with the Egyptian Book of the Dead, which tells the story of Horus and his parents (who was "Meri" and "Jo-Sep"?).

Which both support my views in ways you haven't realised apparently. For example in the book of the dead the father was Sep, the left eye of Horus and Meh was the right eye of Horus and as Hathor was the eye of Ra and the eye of Ra became the eye of Horus synchretistically so then the identity of Hathor became absoarbed into Meh as Ra into Horus and later Meh into Isis.

Remember that the Jews had just come out of Egypt when they began writing down their history.

No, thats a myth. There was no great exodus. The Jews are descendents of the Caananites. There was a Caananite occupation of Egypt, but then the Egyptians were occupied by those who later would call themselves Israelites. Many of the early Caananites were nomads until about the time that the bible has Joshua on his genocidal rampage. What really happened at this time is the nomadic Caananites started to settle and form tribes for militery protection. Some of the Caananaite tribes united for a common defence and called themselfs Israelites which means fighters for El. It seems El is the root for Allah.

They knew the difference between their expected Messiah (which means "Anointed" in Hebrew. "Christ" in Greek) and the Egyptian gods.

Nope. They were polytheists up until the time of king Josiah who practically wrote the old testament up to his time and who asserted Yahweh as the national god. Things start corresponding with archeological history more and more after Omri and Ahaz, but practically everything from Solomon back was fabrication based partly on myth very little on written story and mostly on Josiah's political agenda to assert that Judah had a god given claim to the land in asserting their independence from Babylon. Just prior to his reign Israel had three gods worshiped in most temple cerimonies, El who they were the fighters for, Yahwey the jealous god who you think you know of, and Ashera who was the consort of Yahweh and of El and probably the mother of Yahweh, yuck. Yahweh seems to have come from a Sumarian Baal god of all things. And was able to slip into the place of Ehyeh who was the name of Moses's god in the earlier myth of the Exodus and was able to do so because the people were to afraid to speak the name Ehyeh to pass on who their god was! Ashera and El had a sun Baal, though that doesn't tell you much about who Baal was as there were multiple Baal gods. It seems this son was Yahweh. Now get this, El, but more often asherah were represented as cow gods as was Seb and Meh in the book of the dead. Asherah was known as "she who walks the sea" a definite reference to a water godess. Meh was a water godess of the nile. It seems that the Isrealites certainly did not distinguish their gods from egypt. Seb and Meh correspond to El and Asherah, and Horus to the Baal son of Ashera for who this particular Baal was yahweh. The Baal that Yahweh was so much against was probably Moloch.

 

[Asguard]

Adstar i notieced you didnt respond to my point that there is something bigger than god

 

[spidergoat]

I like Christmas, as long as people remember what it's really about, the gifts.

 

[Adstar]

so youre saying that you know "the truth" of jesus's teachings better than people that lived in his own time and knew him. thats interesting. how is it that you have come into that kind of knowledge?

Now where did i ever say that? Why do you continue to put words into my mouth that i have never said?

by the way, emperor constantine was not a christian until he was on his deathbed.

Of course he was not a Christian. But i do not know if he accepted Jesus as Lord and savior on His deathbed? Maybe he did. One thing is sure i do not trust in historical accounts of his conversion. His actions speak louder than any claim.

he was a worshiper of the pagan sun deity and only made christianity the official religion of the empire because he was obsessed with keeping it united and saw the rise in wealth and power of the new christian church as a convenient instrument of acheiving that goal.

Yes He wanted power and He saw a source of power and at a critical stage took the chance and sought to access that power. The reason he made his play for the support of Christians was to get that extra critical support he needed to get worldly power. Just like politicians do today. The objective has nothing to do with supporting religion the objective is using religion to obtain power.

in addition to that, the story about how he had a vision of a shield with a cross on it and heard a voice say "under this sign ye shall conquer" is of dubious origin,

Of cource it was dubious. I do not believe it for a moment.

and was probably added later to make constantine look like he was doing more than pretending to be christian as a means to a political end.

No the claim had to be made early to attract to support at the time that it was needed. That was when he was struggling for the position of emperor. Yes it was political His political end was worldly power.

the catholic church most definitely existed in some sense before that, all he did was enable the various sects to be brought together under that one banner. learn some history.

Yes there where many different factions but there was only and has ever been only One Body of Christ. Constantine took advantage of the factions to gather false christians to support his cause and in return He gave power to them to establish their false religion as the official religion of state.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Adstar i notieced you didnt respond to my point that there is something bigger than god

Why should i respond?

If you think something is bigger than God why not just make the claim?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Asguard]

i am, actually alot of people have claimed that. As i said god+ universe = bigger than god. LOGIC says that there has to be something bigger than the big beared in the sky kind of god which most people seem to belive in

 

[charles cure]

Now where did i ever say that? Why do you continue to put words into my mouth that i have never said?

you said it right here basically:

The catholic church started when a group of false Christians decided disregard The teachings of Jesus and decided to follow and support Constantine to become emperor of the roman empire

i mean who are you to call any christians false to begin with? you must have some claim on the true knowledge of christ in order to label someone else's belief a falsity. just like you think you're following christ's real teachings, the early catholics did too, and so did the arians and the Kleists and the manicheans and the calvinists and hugeunots and eidguenots and methodists and anabaptists and mormons and even the amish. thats whats basically wrong with the christian religion (and many others), there's only one path to salvation, and its a one lane road with no room for anyone else who doesnt believe exactly what you think is the true version of christs teachings, as if anybody alive now could attest to what the man himself originally taught. shit, people cant even agree on where he came from or whether he was a carpenter or not, and he never wrote a word down in his own hand.

Of course he was not a Christian. But i do not know if he accepted Jesus as Lord and savior on His deathbed? Maybe he did. One thing is sure i do not trust in historical accounts of his conversion. His actions speak louder than any claim.

he wasnt even a pretend christian, he was a devout supporter of Sol Invictus, the sun god. there is historical evidence that he converted when he was ill and close to death, the original claim that he converted because of a vision was a catholic fabrication. supposedly he announced his conversion to christianity in order to lend creedence to it as a state sponsered religion, but he was often seen and overheard praying to the sun god in its former temples. at the very least, he seems to have come to regard the two seperate religions as pretty much totally interchangeable. his only actions in favor of christianity were to allow the christians to become the most powerful religion in rome, which they were on their way to doing anyway and he saw in them a powerful potential source of opposition, so he just gave in and turned them into a powerful ally. i mean come on, by most accounts he didnt even show his face for more than the first couple of days of the council of nicea (which to a devout christian would have been an important thing to stick around for), and he was the one who called it to begin with.

Yes there where many different factions but there was only and has ever been only One Body of Christ. Constantine took advantage of the factions to gather false christians to support his cause and in return He gave power to them to establish their false religion as the official religion of state.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

if there is only one true body of christ then why do factional interpretations exist? is it that christ did not make his message clear enough, or imparts it unequally? if that is true, how do you know that the christ you believe in is the true one and the others are false? how do you know that there isnt a truer one out there somewhere that makes the claim of yours seem idiotic and childish? would you be ashamed to have unwittingly lent your support to a false god? how do you know that the pagan gods werent the real gods and that christ is a demon that overtook them?

 

[Adstar]

Charles
Lets step back a bit and read what you said:

Your said:

Charles
so youre saying that you know "the truth" of jesus's teachings better than people that lived in his own time and knew him. that’s interesting. how is it that you have come into that kind of knowledge?

Now was I or was I not referring to constantine and false Christians who aligned themselves with him? The answer is Yes, I was referring to constantine and the false christians who aligned themselves with him.

Now I replied with an answer to your quoted question thus:

Adstar
Now where did i ever say that? Why do you continue to put words into my mouth that i have never said?

And you replied:

Charles
you said it right here basically:


“ Originally Posted by Adstar
The catholic church started when a group of false Christians decided disregard The teachings of Jesus and decided to follow and support Constantine to become emperor of the roman empire

Now you also gave me some advice:

Charles
learn some history.

Well that is good advice. It’s so good that you should take your own advice and learn some history. Let me teach you some history.

Constantine and the false Christians who aligned themselves to Him did not Live in the time of Jesus and did not meet Him. Historical records say that constantine was born near the year 273. Now the date of Jesus death is not exactly known but most people think it was around the year 33. So constantine lived over 200 years after the death of Jesus. They never met. It is also safe to say that the false Christians who aligned themselves with him never met Jesus as well.

So Charles when you claim that:

“so youre saying that you know "the truth" of jesus's teachings better than people that lived in his own time and knew him.”

You are wrong. I did not say that ok?



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Charles

Lets move on to the rest of your post.

i mean who are you to call any christians false to begin with?

I am a follower of the Messiah Jesus and a part of that is to reveal deception. If i see someone representing Jesus teach something in direct opposition to the teachings of Jesus then i will call the teaching false and if they obstinately defend the false teaching i will call them false. I do not care if i am calling one person false or i am calling a billion people false, my only loyalty is to the Messiah Jesus and no one else.

you must have some claim on the true knowledge of christ in order to label someone else's belief a falsity.

Yes it is called the Bible. In it Jesus tells His followers what to do and what not to do. those who do what Jesus said not to do and claim that they are doing good are false pure and simple.

just like you think you're following christ's real teachings, the early catholics did too,

No they did not, And they still do not. They took part in warfare. Read what Jesus said about how His followers are to treat their enemies.

and so did the arians and the Kleists and the manicheans and the calvinists and hugeunots and eidguenots and methodists and anabaptists and mormons and even the amish. thats whats basically wrong with the christian religion (and many others), there's only one path to salvation, and its a one lane road with no room for anyone else who doesnt believe exactly what you think is the true version of christs teachings, as if anybody alive now could attest to what the man himself originally taught.

Most of these denominations have the same recording of The Messiah's speech on the mount. The beatitudes. How many of them believe Jesus? how many of them believe His word? How many go against His word and use doctrines of men to justify their rebellion against the Lord Jesus?

he wasnt even a pretend christian, he was a devout supporter of Sol Invictus, the sun god. there is historical evidence that he converted when he was ill and close to death, the original claim that he converted because of a vision was a catholic fabrication. supposedly he announced his conversion to christianity in order to lend creedence to it as a state sponsered religion, but he was often seen and overheard praying to the sun god in its former temples. at the very least, he seems to have come to regard the two seperate religions as pretty much totally interchangeable. his only actions in favor of christianity were to allow the christians to become the most powerful religion in rome, which they were on their way to doing anyway and he saw in them a powerful potential source of opposition, so he just gave in and turned them into a powerful ally. i mean come on, by most accounts he didnt even show his face for more than the first couple of days of the council of nicea (which to a devout christian would have been an important thing to stick around for), and he was the one who called it to begin with.

Charles i am mightily confused here. Why are you righting this to me as if i am a supporter of constantine? It seems you are trying to continue arguing with me on something we are in agreement with? You say constantine was not a christian,,, Now read this... I AGREE WITH YOU ....

if there is only one true body of christ then why do factional interpretations exist?

Because people want to do what they want to do. But they also want to feel their actions are supported by God. There is a market out there for people who want to kill their enemies and feel justified by God in doing so. They want Jesus as their Savior it's the Lord bit they want toned down.

is it that christ did not make his message clear enough, or imparts it unequally?

He did make His message clear enough. Go and read the beatitude’s Matthew chapters 5,6,7 Its very clear and when you put it up against the history and traditions and doctrines of the catholic church you will see that church is false.

if that is true, how do you know that the christ you believe in is the true one and the others are false? how do you know that there isnt a truer one out there somewhere that makes the claim of yours seem idiotic and childish?

Well one has not shown itself to me. But i know that many people in here claim that belief in the Messiah Jesus is idiotic and childish so i am well used to that.

would you be ashamed to have unwittingly lent your support to a false god? how do you know that the pagan gods werent the real gods and that christ is a demon that overtook them?

Why would i be ashamed? If one genuinely believes with a clear conscience what they believe in. Then to be wrong is never shameful. Being human leads it’s self to being wrong. I don't witness to a catholic or a mormon or a muslim or an athiest seeking to shame them.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[c20H25N3o]

They want Jesus as their Savior it's the Lord bit they want toned down.

that made me smile. how true.

peace

c20

 

[charles cure]

Charles
Now was I or was I not referring to constantine and false Christians who aligned themselves with him? The answer is Yes, I was referring to constantine and the false christians who aligned themselves with him.

actually, no you werent, originally you were referring to the catholic church as false christianity, and as i pointed out, the catholic tradition begins with peter and not constantine. peter knew jesus if there ever was a jesus to know, you have got the beginning of the catholic church confused with the consolidation of christian power under one authority (which turned out to be the catholic church) that constantine helped facilitate in 325 by calling the first ecumenical council.

Well that is good advice. It’s so good that you should take your own advice and learn some history. Let me teach you some history.

Constantine and the false Christians who aligned themselves to Him did not Live in the time of Jesus and did not meet Him. Historical records say that constantine was born near the year 273. Now the date of Jesus death is not exactly known but most people think it was around the year 33. So constantine lived over 200 years after the death of Jesus. They never met. It is also safe to say that the false Christians who aligned themselves with him never met Jesus as well.

nobody was disputing when constantine lived or that by the time he was born it was way too late for him to have known jesus. thats pretty basic. you are saying the catholic church began under constantines rule, which it didnt. the catholic tradition begins with and is based on the accounts of someone who was a supposed disciple of jesus. so when you call the catholics false christians, you are saying that you know better than the religion whose foundation is a man that knew jesus. lets not get that confused ok.

So Charles when you claim that:

“so youre saying that you know "the truth" of jesus's teachings better than people that lived in his own time and knew him.”

You are wrong. I did not say that ok?

you did say it when you called catholics false christians, you and i just disagree about when and how the church started.
besides, lets put that aside, because your intolerance for other beliefs within your same sect is irrelevant here. how do you know that what you believe is true at all? how do you know that you havent been led astray by the machinations of some false god? you cant say that you just know, because thats everybody else's answer too, and they just know exactly like you do. what makes one set of dogmas within christianity true and others false? how can you be so arrogant as to think you know the true intentions of any deity or religious text? how do you guess at the intent of a god that there is no physical evidence for in the first place? your beliefs are no better than those of the pagans.

 

[charles cure]

Charles

Lets move on to the rest of your post.




I am a follower of the Messiah Jesus and a part of that is to reveal deception. If i see someone representing Jesus teach something in direct opposition to the teachings of Jesus then i will call the teaching false and if they obstinately defend the false teaching i will call them false. I do not care if i am calling one person false or i am calling a billion people false, my only loyalty is to the Messiah Jesus and no one else.

yeah but how do you define what jesus taught, because thats the crucial issue, jesus said lots of things that are in complete conflict with each other. all you really do is choose the things you want to think he really meant, and then live by them. well thats what every believer in every different sect of christianity does, they selectively interpret the syaings of jesus to be commands, or metaphors, or jokes that just didnt mean anything. well that doesnt constitute true knowledge, its just a convenient justification for a lifestyle that probably has nothing to do with what jesus would have wanted or could even have imagined.

Yes it is called the Bible. In it Jesus tells His followers what to do and what not to do. those who do what Jesus said not to do and claim that they are doing good are false pure and simple.

so you take jesus's saying in the bible as literal commands? all of them? or do you pare them down to what you think are the most important ones and then try to approach it that way? because if you dont live by the rules he laid down in every single line of the bible, then you are doing exactly what every other christian in every other sect does, interpreting jesus's will and intentions, and this makes your interpretation just as open to being true or false as theirs. in the absence of any real proof other than the bible itself to corroborate your claim to be following the letter of gods law, who are you to call anyone else false at all, except someone who just cant see the probable error of his own beliefs?

No they did not, And they still do not. They took part in warfare. Read what Jesus said about how His followers are to treat their enemies.

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 - Matthew 10:34-38
the truth is, he probably wasnt as opposed to warfare as you think, in fact he comes out and says right there, "hey if you thought i came to bring peace, you are wrong, i have just set you all against each other" that makes warfare pretty inevitable. so if jesus came down and said "hey i know i told you to fight for your belief in me, but i dont want you to go to war about it or youre being a false christian", then he's a pretty cruel and useless god. if you believe that this particular line is to be taken metaphorically and not literally, then how do you know that the ban(s) on warfare and gaining earthly power through jesus's word arent metaphorical as well? or how do you know that all the passages arent meant to be taken literally? since there is just as much of a lack of evidence to support both positions, who are you to call anyone a false christian with any certainty beyond some delusion of grandeur on your own part?

Most of these denominations have the same recording of The Messiah's speech on the mount. The beatitudes. How many of them believe Jesus? how many of them believe His word? How many go against His word and use doctrines of men to justify their rebellion against the Lord Jesus?

how many people go against at least one or two lines in the new testament every few minutes without realizing it? i bet you do. do you sometimes not abide by every dietary restriction in the bible? do you not give as many of your worldly possessions as possible to the poor? do you not always take strangers into your home whenever they ask and treat them as if it were their home? do you ever feel jealous? proud? have you ever had sex out of wedlock? have you ever been in a fistfight? have you ever stepped on and killed an insect? have you ever indirectly contributed to the death of someone you dont know by financial or other means of political support? probably every single one of these things violates some teaching of jesus, just like engaging in warfare and political manipulation does. those are what the bible calls sins, and supposedly the good part about christianity is that sinning doesnt make you a false christian, it just makes you a person who has to beg for gods forgiveness. you have called the cahtolic church a purveyor of false christianity just because they sinned a few times...welcome to the real world, every religion is fraught with sin. every faith misinterprets, disrespects, and judges others, including yours, so that makes you just as false as everyone else who does something wrong here and there.

Because people want to do what they want to do. But they also want to feel their actions are supported by God. There is a market out there for people who want to kill their enemies and feel justified by God in doing so. They want Jesus as their Savior it's the Lord bit they want toned down.

right, but how do you know that that isnt ok with god? you are just one among many factional interpretations. gods will isnt clear in the bible, its contradictory, open ended, and sometimes nearly impossible to live with, its written ambiguously in the bible so as to be open to interpretation. the reason there are factional interpretations is because gods word or jesus's is meant to have a different significance to every single person that reads it. its meant to be used to justify a whole range of possible actions, even some that are considered crimes by some people. the reason its structured like that is because the open-ended nature of the teachings make it possible for anyone to mold christianity around their already existing lifestyle. that means people can convert without destroying their identities or even altering their pre-existing beliefs that much. that simple fact is the reason christianity flourishes and has any power over anyone at all in the world right now. if it were too hard to convert it would have died out long ago and we'd be having this debate about Islam or Buddhism instead, because it would dominate our culture and not christianity. the teachings of jesus are purposely unclear so that everyone can believe and still be themselves. this is the same characteristic of the teachings that make it possible to use them as justification for wars and genocide and oppression and slavery. there is no such thing as a false christian because after reading the bible and attempting to live by all of its teachings, you come to the necessary conclusion that there is no such thing as a true christian.

He did make His message clear enough. Go and read the beatitude’s Matthew chapters 5,6,7 Its very clear and when you put it up against the history and traditions and doctrines of the catholic church you will see that church is false.

yeah but i bet if you debated a catholic priest about it, he would give you scriptural quotation that justifies nearly every act of the catholic chruch throughout history. your pronouncement of the catholic church as false turns on your interpretation, which is by definition just as flawed as theirs. i mean whose to say that the sermon on the mount is any more important than any other words that jesus said?

Well one has not shown itself to me. But i know that many people in here claim that belief in the Messiah Jesus is idiotic and childish so i am well used to that.

how does something like that show itself to you in the first place? in a dream, a vision, an out of body experience? do you almost drown in a swimming pool and decide to devote yourself to god because you fear death? a god that doesnt show itself to everyone in a substantial way is never going to accomplish anything except to breed bitterness and enmity between people who disagree about the evidence that isnt there.

Why would i be ashamed? If one genuinely believes with a clear conscience what they believe in. Then to be wrong is never shameful. Being human leads it’s self to being wrong. I don't witness to a catholic or a mormon or a muslim or an athiest seeking to shame them.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

so then why do you do it at all? to show them the way? you clearly have no means of actually convincing them with proof that you are right, so why pronounce anyone else as false? why not just go about your business secure in the knowledge that if you found the "true" way, then everyone else probably can and will too?

 

[Adstar]

Well charles you have been busy. So much to reply to well i will just have to grind my way through your points.

actually, no you werent, originally you were referring to the catholic church as false christianity, and as i pointed out, the catholic tradition begins with peter and not constantine.

That’s where your wrong. The claim by the catholic church that peter has successors is false. Jesus words to peter where to peter Jesus never said peter would have successors. That is a creation of the catholic church to justify the infallibility of the pope. The catholic church was indeed the creation of constantine's alliance with false Christians.

peter knew jesus if there ever was a jesus to know, you have got the beginning of the catholic church confused with the consolidation of christian power under one authority (which turned out to be the catholic church) that constantine helped facilitate in 325 by calling the first ecumenical council.

Yes peter knew Jesus but even Peter did not fully understand Jesus until the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came into Him. I am not confused about the establishment of the Holy Spirit lead body of Christ on the day of Pentecost and the establishment of the catholic church by constantine. they are two very different animals.

how do you know that what you believe is true at all? how do you know that you havent been led astray by the machinations of some false god? you cant say that you just know, because thats everybody else's answer too, and they just know exactly like you do. what makes one set of dogmas within christianity true and others false? how can you be so arrogant as to think you know the true intentions of any deity or religious text? how do you guess at the intent of a god that there is no physical evidence for in the first place? your beliefs are no better than those of the pagans.

Arrogance has nothing to do with it. If i bend down and snap off a blade of grass hold it up and declare it to be green then i am either right or i am wrong. If someone tells me that the blade of grass is orange then i will disagree with them and tell everyone that they are wrong. I have Gods Word the Bible to show me the Words Of Jesus I also have the Holy Spirit guiding my understanding. People either believe what i say or they don't its their call. I do not care about creating some kind of following i do not run a church or a cult. I do not seek political power or riches. No one pays me for what i preach.

how do you define what jesus taught, because thats the crucial issue, jesus said lots of things that are in complete conflict with each other. all you really do is choose the things you want to think he really meant, and then live by them. well thats what every believer in every different sect of christianity does, they selectively interpret the syaings of jesus to be commands, or metaphors, or jokes that just didnt mean anything. well that doesnt constitute true knowledge, its just a convenient justification for a lifestyle that probably has nothing to do with what jesus would have wanted or could even have imagined.

Jesus words are in the bible. that’s where they are defined. I believe Jesus that all His words are true. The message must be read as a whole and one must be guided by the Holy Spirit in their reading. It is impossible to fully understand the Bible without first believing in God.

so you take jesus's saying in the bible as literal commands? all of them? or do you pare them down to what you think are the most important ones and then try to approach it that way? because if you dont live by the rules he laid down in every single line of the bible, then you are doing exactly what every other christian in every other sect does, interpreting jesus's will and intentions, and this makes your interpretation just as open to being true or false as theirs. in the absence of any real proof other than the bible itself to corroborate your claim to be following the letter of gods law, who are you to call anyone else false at all, except someone who just cant see the probable error of his own beliefs?

I believe every word Jesus said and that His message is the truth. the only proof i need to support the stance that i have is the Bible. Its a take it or leave it proposition. I will call doctrines false when they go against the Bible and i will not be apologizing for that. People who see the error in their own belief once that error is shown them will repent of the error and acknowledge the truth. Those who place their desires for revenge and worldly power above the Will of God will resist the truth to the bitter end.

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 - Matthew 10:34-38
the truth is, he probably wasnt as opposed to warfare as you think, in fact he comes out and says right there, "hey if you thought i came to bring peace, you are wrong, i have just set you all against each other" that makes warfare pretty inevitable. so if jesus came down and said "hey i know i told you to fight for your belief in me, but i dont want you to go to war about it or youre being a false christian", then he's a pretty cruel and useless god. if you believe that this particular line is to be taken metaphorically and not literally, then how do you know that the ban(s) on warfare and gaining earthly power through jesus's word arent metaphorical as well? or how do you know that all the passages arent meant to be taken literally? since there is just as much of a lack of evidence to support both positions, who are you to call anyone a false christian with any certainty beyond some delusion of grandeur on your own part?

Matthew 10
34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’ 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.

Jesus is talking about division not warfare. I know what He is talking about, i lived this. My parents and family are catholic. I had to leave them to follow Jesus. That’s what Jesus was talking about. Many of the early Christians where from Jewish families. The Jews persecuted the early Christians Saul was a leader of this persecution many of the new Christians where betrayed by their own family members. Their enemies where in their own households. They ended up dying for their faith. Jesus made it clear that warfare was not for His followers and many of the letters backed that up.


Matthew 5:38-39
38 "You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. 39But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.


Matthew 5: 43-48
43 "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.


Matthew 26
51 And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.
52 But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.


Romans 12:17-21
17Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. 20Therefore "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head." 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.


Matthew 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God.


II Corinthians 10:3,4
"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds."


Ephesians 6:12
"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places."


Ephesians 6:4
"And you, fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath, but bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord."


Zechariah 4:6
"Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit, says the Lord of Hosts."


1 John 5:19
"The whole world lieth in the evil one."


Revelation 13:10
He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

So i have no doubt what so ever that taking part in warfare is against the teachings of Jesus.

how many people go against at least one or two lines in the new testament every few minutes without realizing it?

Yes but we are not saved by our ability to live the Law successfully we are saved by believing Jesus. This is a basic concept that many religionists and atheist just do not get. Its not about achieving its about believing. All men are sinners and fall short of the law Me Included. That’s why Jesus died for me so that i will be forgiven my shortcomings. But as i have said so many times before just because i am forgiven does not make sinning ok. I agree with God that sin is wrong and that sinning must be resisted. I resist sin out of agreement of God and love for His act of love for me. I do not resist sin to earn my place in eternity with God. You say that anyone who sins against the law is a false Christian. No, you are very wrong. It is those who sin against God and try to justify their sin by using false doctrine, they are the false ones.

i bet you do. do you sometimes not abide by every dietary restriction in the bible?

I acknowledge the best diet ever given was the Kosher diet in the bible. But once again i am not saved by my ability to always eat kosher. Actually there is a big difference between the moral laws like the 10 commandments and the dietary laws. One is not made moral by what food one eats. One is made more healthy by the food one eats.

do you not give as many of your worldly possessions as possible to the poor? do you not always take strangers into your home whenever they ask and treat them as if it were their home? do you ever feel jealous? proud? have you ever had sex out of wedlock? have you ever been in a fistfight? have you ever stepped on and killed an insect? have you ever indirectly contributed to the death of someone you dont know by financial or other means of political support? probably every single one of these things violates some teaching of jesus, just like engaging in warfare and political manipulation does. those are what the bible calls sins, and supposedly the good part about christianity is that sinning doesnt make you a false christian, it just makes you a person who has to beg for gods forgiveness. you have called the cahtolic church a purveyor of false christianity just because they sinned a few times...welcome to the real world, every religion is fraught with sin. every faith misinterprets, disrespects, and judges others, including yours, so that makes you just as false as everyone else who does something wrong here and there.

Yes of course i have sinned in what i have done and in what i have failed to do But i AKNOWLEDGE IT. I do not get an army of theologians to twist the truth so that i can say that "No that sin that i did is not a sin." Or "don't worry guys go and kill the pagans because its alright to kill non-believers".

Doing something wrong does not make one false. Doing something wrong and claiming that it is not wrong makes someone false.

gods will isnt clear in the bible, its contradictory, open ended, and sometimes nearly impossible to live with, its written ambiguously in the bible so as to be open to interpretation.

It is open to misinterpretation to only allow those who truly love the truth to understand. But those who are in rebellion to be side tracked. God helps the meek but resists the proud.

the reason there are factional interpretations is because gods word or jesus's is meant to have a different significance to every single person that reads it. its meant to be used to justify a whole range of possible actions, even some that are considered crimes by some people. the reason its structured like that is because the open-ended nature of the teachings make it possible for anyone to mold christianity around their already existing lifestyle. that means people can convert without destroying their identities or even altering their pre-existing beliefs that much. that simple fact is the reason christianity flourishes and has any power over anyone at all in the world right now.

No no no. God does not measure success like a politician does. Jesus said that few would find the right way and that many would go the wrong way that leads to destruction. The many different denominations and religions of today clearly show that man have created different ways leading people who reject the love of the truth away from the truth.

If it were too hard to convert it would have died out long ago and we'd be having this debate about Islam or Buddhism instead, because it would dominate our culture and not christianity.

That’s my point. True Christianity has never dominated any culture or nation but of course false Christianity has been a good servant of the worldly powers. The number of true Christians on this world has always been a very low number.

the teachings of jesus are purposely unclear so that everyone can believe and still be themselves. this is the same characteristic of the teachings that make it possible to use them as justification for wars and genocide and oppression and slavery. there is no such thing as a false christian because after reading the bible and attempting to live by all of its teachings, you come to the necessary conclusion that there is no such thing as a true christian.

That’s because you do not understand what a true Christian is. You do not understand why it is unclear but at the same time very clear to those who love the truth. I assure you the "anything goes Christianity" is not true Christianity.

how does something like that show itself to you in the first place? in a dream, a vision, an out of body experience? do you almost drown in a swimming pool and decide to devote yourself to god because you fear death? a god that doesnt show itself to everyone in a substantial way is never going to accomplish anything except to breed bitterness and enmity between people who disagree about the evidence that isn’t there.

I do not trust dreams or visions I Believed in God and read the Bible and came to accept Jesus as my Redeemer. Once again you do not know what God wants to accomplish. you measure success in numbers of adherents? sorry Gods people have always been a minority on the face of the earth. those who a bitter and are filled with enmity don't need religion to be bitter and filled with enmity. They are already set on enmity they just bring their bitterness along with them and find a religion that justifies their bitterness and enmity.

so then why do you do it at all? to show them the way? you clearly have no means of actually convincing them with proof that you are right, so why pronounce anyone else as false? why not just go about your business secure in the knowledge that if you found the "true" way, then everyone else probably can and will too?

I do not witness because of the level of success i have, or to win a head count for God. If that was my motivation then i would consider myself a very big looser especially in here. I don't think i have been able to bring anyone in this place to belief in Jesus. I witness because i want to help others find the right way, success or otherwise i do it because i want to give a chance to those who would not normally ever come into open contact with a Christian. I have the Words of Jesus to convince those who have been mislead. That’s all i have. I cannot just shut up shop and leave someone who may still be open to the truth. How could i live with myself if i did that. God uses His word to convict people that they need Jesus and God uses Christians to deliver that word.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days