Christianity of Jesus vs. Christianity of Paul

c20H25N3o: I tell you it is truth in all purity but you reject what I have said.
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M*W: I reject all that you have said, because I found it to be a pack of lies.
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c20H25N3o: Paul did certainly not hate women, that is your perception of him because you feel threatened by male dominance.
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M*W: You are wrong. Go back and re-read what Paul said about women. He was a perverted male chauvinist pig. He did hate women probably because he fears the power of women, which was nearly non-existent in those days, except for the temple priestesses/prostitutes. Those women were of independent means and held higher offices in the temples than did men. Male dominance is a key theme of a lot of your posts and is the source of all of your frustrations.
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M*W: Wrong again! I have never feared male dominance in my entire life! Actually, it's been the other way around for me. I've met too many weak men.
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c20H25N3o: This is why you exalt Mary Magdelane above Jesus, because it makes you feel better about yourself.
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M*W: No. The reason I have more respect for MM is that Jesus was her student, not the other way around! I really don't believe anyone out there, god or no god, could help me feel better about myself. I've accomplished a lot in my life. I feel that I have lived at least three full lifetimes in one that is probably more than half-way over. I have no regrets, and I don't need a fantasy god to believe in.
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c20H25N3o: Is this to do with your own human father? Do you feel like you could never meet his expectations? This is a common cause of doubt. My own father was a beast to me, I could never be good enough for him to love unconditionally. There were always conditions. Always.
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M*W: You're way off center by trying to analyze me and my relationship with my father. He loved me. He taught me that being fair and just is the only way to succeed. He was proud of my accomplishments, and gave me a great value system. Although my dad had a long list of his own accomplishments, war hero, Navy Seal, he always told me I was his greatest gift to the world, so, no, I have no unresolved issues with my dad. I'm sorry you had to experience what you did with yours.
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c20H25N3o: With Jesus there are no conditions because it is already done! You are set free. God loves you Medicine Woman and your knowledge of scripture would be of much benefit to believers. You are wasting your precious time fighting with the truth when you could be setting others free with it. I wish you would turn back to that which you know to be good.
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M*W: I've been there, done the religion thing, and found the truth. God doesn't love me OR you, because the God you believe in doesn't exist. It's just a delusion. You believe in a narrow-minded delusion based on your inner-neediness of unresolved grief. There was a time when I taught catechism for a number of years, but I realized the christianity Paul professed was totally a lie based upon his own neediness. Christianity is not 'good,' it is evil, and it is represented by the the Anti-Jesus -- Paul.
 
WOMEN & SAUL/ST.PAUL

WOMEN ---> Jesus' radical treatment towards women were revolutionary as written in John 4:7-26. He refused to follow the behavioral rules established by the three major Jewish religious groups, Essenes, Pharisees and Sadducees of the day, who restricted women to roles of little or no authority, and also were considered to be inferior and under the authority of men.

Saul/St.Paul said, "I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not: After the Damascus road event Saul cried out, "I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee.-( Acts 23:6 ). Here what Jesus said about the Pharisee, "Ye are of your father the Devil, and the lust of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.(John 8:44).

Here are some of Saul's commendments for women that christian fundamentalists believe to be the Word of God:

"---women adorn themselves in modest apparrel, with shamefaceness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold or prearls, or costly array;"

"---train the younger women---to be subject to their husbands."( Titus 2:4 )

--- "WIVES, submitt yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the chruch:"-(Eph. 5:22-23)

"---women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says, If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."( 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 )

--- "Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over man, but to be in slience." --- " ---but woman being deceived was in the transgression. Not withstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue faith and charity and holiness with sobriety." (1 Tim. 2:11-15)
"---Christ is the head of every man, and a husband the head of his wife, and the head of Christ is God."( 1 Corinthians 11:3 )

Because of these kind of doctrines, women have been enslaved , imprisoned, disgraced and made silent if at all possible by their fathers, husbands, and brothers, and the religious community. For the women that did not believe and accept these doctrines of Saul's Lord (the Devil), the punishments that many women have suffered were to wicked to mention. The History on how women were and are treated in the religious world was and is an abomination. In recent years, as in the twentith century, women have been rebeling against the words of Saul's Christ, without even recognizing that Saul's testimony is of the Devil who claimed to be The Jesus of Nazareth. No wonder so many cruse Jesus' name.

All these written commandments for women, from Saul the Pharisee, are not in agreement with Jesus' words and examples. It's important to know how Jesus treated women. Women that were treated as outcast by the mainstream, Jesus demonstrated both tender compassion and insight. Jesus was also approachable by those that were considered the lowest of the low, or the rejects by the status quo. In the four gospels, there are many examples of how Jesus treated women. One good example is about the woman of Samaria ---> ( John 4:6-26 ).

Saul's Lord Jesus Christ is the The Beast, and Saul/St.Paul is the greastest of false prophet who has deceived the christian world.

Peace be with you, Paul
 
battig1370: WOMEN & SAUL/ST.PAUL

WOMEN ---> Jesus' radical treatment towards women were revolutionary as written in John 4:7-26. He refused to follow the behavioral rules established by the three major Jewish religious groups, Essenes, Pharisees and Sadducees of the day, who restricted women to roles of little or no authority, and also were considered to be inferior and under the authority of men.

Saul/St.Paul said, "I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not: After the Damascus road event Saul cried out, "I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee.-( Acts 23:6 ). Here what Jesus said about the Pharisee, "Ye are of your father the Devil, and the lust of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.(John 8:44).

Here are some of Saul's commendments for women that christian fundamentalists believe to be the Word of God:

"---women adorn themselves in modest apparrel, with shamefaceness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold or prearls, or costly array;"

"---train the younger women---to be subject to their husbands."(Titus 2:4)

--- "WIVES, submitt yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the chruch:"-(Eph. 5:22-23)

"---women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says, If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."(1 Corinthians 14:34-35)

--- "Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over man, but to be in slience." --- " ---but woman being deceived was in the transgression. Not withstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue faith and charity and holiness with sobriety." (1 Tim. 2:11-15)

"---Christ is the head of every man, and a husband the head of his wife, and the head of Christ is God."(1 Corinthians 11:3)

Because of these kind of doctrines, women have been enslaved , imprisoned, disgraced and made silent if at all possible by their fathers, husbands, and brothers, and the religious community. For the women that did not believe and accept these doctrines of Saul's Lord (the Devil), the punishments that many women have suffered were to wicked to mention. The History on how women were and are treated in the religious world was and is an abomination. In recent years, as in the twentith century, women have been rebeling against the words of Saul's Christ, without even recognizing that Saul's testimony is of the Devil who claimed to be The Jesus of Nazareth. No wonder so many cruse Jesus' name.

All these written commandments for women, from Saul the Pharisee, are not in agreement with Jesus' words and examples. It's important to know how Jesus treated women. Women that were treated as outcast by the mainstream, Jesus demonstrated both tender compassion and insight. Jesus was also approachable by those that were considered the lowest of the low, or the rejects by the status quo. In the four gospels, there are many examples of how Jesus treated women. One good example is about the woman of Samaria ---> (John 4:6-26).

Saul's Lord Jesus Christ is the The Beast, and Saul/St.Paul is the greastest of false prophet who has deceived the christian world.

Peace be with you, Paul
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M*W: Thanks, battig. That is refreshing coming from a Christian.
 
M*W: Thanks, battig. That is refreshing coming from a Christian.

Christian??? The most liberal christian church would not have me as a member of their church, because they believe that Saul's Lord Jesus Christ is the same Jesus as the one in the gospels.

Peace be with you, Paul
 
This just gets sillier and sillier in my opinion. How can St Paul who agreed that Christ came as a human being be against the very Spirit that professes that to be true?
Also why would Christ Jesus condemn Paul through Battig who says "Christian???" as though he himself is an unbeliever.
Since there is no condemnation in Christ how come you do not love your brother Paul?
If you are not loving Paul to honour God I can understand this but since you say there is no God how can Paul be a 'false' prophet?
You say Paul was deceived and then point to Jesus as though His life bore witness to Paul as a deceiver but then you say that there is no God so what is St Paul deceived about? Since God is love and you stand against the deceiver, how come you do not hate the accuser of your brethren of which Paul must be a part and is also verily accused?
Who is doing the accusing here? Is it Paul? I think not! Who is accusing the brethren?
Is it God who has been made flesh in the person of Jesus Christ and who lay down His life for all?
If I am deceived how come I speak in love for both Jesus and Paul? I know in my heart that God would defend Paul, not that Paul even needs defending! Who are you to accuse Paul?
As I said in the very beginning "If Paul exalts Jesus' name which He quite clearly does through scripture, how can he therefore be against him?"
Also you should note the relationship between God, Man and Woman and Paul's take on it.
Paul says "Wives submit to your husbands. Husbands love your wives"
Paul says "Christ is the head of every man, and a husband the head of his wife, and the head of Christ is God."(1 Corinthians 11:3) (thanks for that piece of scripture battig :D)

So how can Paul be against the Christ? How can Paul be against man? How can Paul be against God? If Paul Says God is the head of the Christ and Christ has been given full authority over man then one may say that God expects man to submit to the Christ even as the Christ submits to the Father. Does the first act of submission by Christ to God demonstrate the Christ's love for us? That the Christ would die for us? If the Christ did this in submission to His Father's will then who can be against us? Since Paul then says Husband's love your wives I think it can be said that Paul had received revelation of the order of things and in this order He rightlfully puts God at the top of the chain. Since the chain begins with love, one may assume that it ends with love and since submission is a theme of love i.e. love does not seek its own way it would seem good even to those who had grasped the basic concepts that a wife should submit to her husband even as her husband submits the the Christ and even as Christ submits to God!
Why would God want Christ to submit to Himself even unto death? So that we might know God's love for us! Why would God want a wife to submit to her husband? So that she might know her husbands love for her!

Examples:

Non Submission
Husband - Hey darling could you fetch me the hosepipe from the shed, I am holding this stop cock shut and I do not have a spare pair of hands.
Wife - Hey dont order me about. Get it your self. I am not your slave am I"
Husband - "Oh please darling I simply cannot let go of this"
Wife - "Nope sorry - I'm off out shopping - you will have to work it out"

Net result - husband unhappy with wife. husband loses faith in his wifes love for him given that he was just trying to fix something for both of them. She refused to help because she sought her own way. The husband feels distanced from his wife.

Submission

Husband - Hey darling could you fetch me the hosepipe from the shed, I am holding this stop cock shut and I do not have a spare pair of hands.
Wife - Oh you pest! (smiles). I was just off out but wait, I will go to the shed and fetch you the hosepipe.
Husband - Thanks, I do love you you know (smiles)
Wife - I know you do (smiles). Be right back.
Husband - Make it soon, this is killing me holding this like this!
Wife - I am going as quick as I can
Husband - Well stop standing there woman - I havnt got all day (purses lips)
Wife - Ok! Oh I forgot to mention, our daughter will need collecting from gym class at around three, will you be finished by then?
Husband - Not if you dont fetch me that hosepipe!!!
Wife - (smiles) Ok Ok I am going!
Husband - Good!

Husband loves his wife, wife loves her husband. They are working for the common good. This is the relationship that Paul desired for husbands and wives. I see nothing wrong in it. I therefore thank God for Paul who speaks the truth of the Christ.
May the deceived be held in great pity by the Lord and may He destroy the deceiver of men for all time. Amen

peace

c20

Much better for wives to submit to their husbands.
 
Medicine Woman said:
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For the Christians on board: Whose version of Christianity do you follow, Jesus' or Paul's, and why?
Click to expand...

*sigh*

Medicine Women, you are doing the same as the Corinthians, Chloe's people did.
 
FieryIce: Medicine Women, you are doing the same as the Corinthians, Chloe's people did.
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M*: FieryIce, I don't understand your comment. Please explain.
 
battig1370: Christian??? The most liberal christian church would not have me as a member of their church, because they believe that Saul's Lord Jesus Christ is the same Jesus as the one in the gospels.

Peace be with you, Paul
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M*W: Well, somewhere among these posts, I thought I interpreted your statements to be Christian. My sincerest apologies!
 
The simple answer to your original question is right there in Corinthians, even easier to find, the answer is right in the first chapter.
 
FieryIce: The simple answer to your original question is right there in Corinthians, even easier to find, the answer is right in the first chapter.
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M*W: I addressed my question to the Christians on board for THEIR answers. If I had wanted to look up the answer in the NT, I would have done so, but the NT contains the words of Saul/Paul, therefore, the NT doesn't answer my question.
 
M*W: I addressed my question to the Christians on board for THEIR answers. If I had wanted to look up the answer in the NT, I would have done so, but the NT contains the words of Saul/Paul, therefore, the NT doesn't answer my question.

Christians on board??? Why would you ask a searching question of people already on board with your particular philosophy. Surely you are preaching to the converted right there??? Surely their answers would only serve to back up and give weight to your philosophy which is to discount the doctrine of St Paul.

Now I say that Christ Jesus came as a human being and I testify that St Paul was a prophet sent by God to preach the gospel to the gentiles.

How may I know that my spirit is true???

Let's look at 1 John 4:1-6 shall we? I think it may put an end to this little misunderstanding :cool:

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood. (1 John 4:1-6)

So again I ask - Do you say that Jesus Christ came as a human being that I may test the spirit with which you speak M*W? Just yes or no please. Thanks

c20

A much more in depth article can be found on 'testing the spirits' at the following web site http://www.horizonsnet.org/sermons/1jn19.html

:D
 
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SnakeLord said:
Unbelievable.. :bugeye:
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Snakelord,

Did you even read the example I provided concerning a wifes submission to her husband? If you did please can you be objective about it's message and in doing so explain why you say "unbelievable"?

Thanks

C20
 
I am puzzled why the attacks on the actions of Homosexuals and the acceptance of slavery and the role of women are blamed on Paul? Isn't Paul just quoting the OT?
 
Did you even read the example I provided concerning a wifes submission to her husband? If you did please can you be objective about it's message and in doing so explain why you say "unbelievable"?
Click to expand...

Yes, I did read your examples, and I fail to see any worth in them or indeed saying "much better for wives to submit to their husbands", when you might aswell just say "better for a couple to help each other than argue with each other". Why didn't you do a reverse example where the woman is the one needing the help, and then end your post with "much better for men to submit to their wives"?

The sexism present in your post can be seen by the biblical parts you preach. You state jesus is the head of man and man is the head of woman - clearly trying to define a line between man and woman, where man is the greater, and then end your whole post with "better for a woman to submit", as if they are little more than pet dogs. Of course the bible is full to the brim with such outdated stupidity, and we can see you lead your life by it.

In fact, your entire post stinks of sexism, and that is why I say "unbelievable". You live in the wrong era I guess, and frankly what I've read in your posts is dsgusting for anyone living in 2004.
 
battig1370: Christian??? The most liberal christian church would not have me as a member of their church, because they believe that Saul's Lord Jesus Christ is the same Jesus as the one in the gospels.

Peace be with you, Paul
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M*W: Well, somewhere among these posts, I thought I interpreted your statements to be Christian. My sincerest apologies!

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Battig1370: As you may already know, I believe that Saul/St.Paul's Christ is the Beast, but I do believe in my LORD JESUS of the Gospels, who overcame and has been granted "ALL POWER is given unto ME in heaven and earth" - (Matthew 28:18)
which has been written about in the Gospel. Would say I am a christian?
 
St Paul never claimed to be God but thanked God for His grace. I tell you it is not wise to reject Paul because to reject his words is to reject the Spirit with which he spoke. To cast doubts on Paul and to accuse him is really quite a nasty trick. It should not be done lest it cause any believer to doubt the authenticity of the Word of God.
Do it at your own peril.

peace

c20
 
c20H25N3o: "I tell you it is not wise to reject Paul because to reject his words is to reject the Spirit with which he spoke."

Battig1370: I know what you are saying because Saul/St.Paul wrote: ---" And to you who are trouble rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire "taking vengeance" on them that know not God and the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be "punished with everlasting destruction" from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and admired in all them that believed ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day. --- And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and "shall destroy" with brightness of his coming.-( 2 Thess 1:7-10, and 2:8 )

Saul/St.Paul's God has the personality and Spirit as the Beast: ---" And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly would was healed. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, --- And he had power to give life unto The Image of the Beast, that The Image of the Beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship The Image of the Beast should be killed. (Rev.13:12-13 and 15)

As you noticed in Saul/St.Paul's revelation of his Lord Jesus Christ's power to destroy and kill, and in St.John's Revelation of the beast's power to destroy and kill, these two personalities are the same and of the same wicked Spirit, because they will do the same, they will take vengeance, causing everlasting destruction, kill and destroy with fire and cause massive suffering which will be worse than your worst nightmare. IT IS WRITTEN that if you reject the Beast you will be destroyed, and also if reject Saul/St.Paul Christ you will be destroyed.

Yes, I reject Saul/St.Paul Christ and the Beast because they are of the same Spirit.

Peace be with you, Paul
 
I would a thousand and seventy seven times over be destroyed by the Beast in this life for my faith in humble Jesus than to be destroyed by the wrath of God forever for rejecting His Son who gave His life for me. The Beast too will be destroyed or did you forget that bit? God is eternal however as are His sons.

peace

c20
 
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