Christianity and Judaism and Islam, Oh My!

M

Mr. Hamtastic

whackawhackado!
Registered Senior Member
I've been giving this horsewash about the Abrahamic religions being based on Monotheistic Sun Worship. I have a problem, as far as I am aware or am able to research, there has not been any monotheistic Sun worship. At the very least, it has always been Sun and Moon worship as seperate entities. Not only that, but comparing abrahamis religion to sun worship is like comparing a lighter to banging together two rocks. They both make fire, but the one is a bit more developed. The closest comparison I've been able to find was Sumerian and Babylonian religions. The babylonian mystery religion was still in practice in the late 400's when christianity was made the Roman state religion. Sumerian/Mesopotamian religion and links to the epic of Gilgamesh are all throughout Genesis.

I guess I'm trying to say, if you're going to toss about weird comparisons, at least compare a lighter to a pack of matches, wouldya?
 
Mr. Hamtastic said:
I've been giving this horsewash about the Abrahamic religions being based on Monotheistic Sun Worship. I have a problem, as far as I am aware or am able to research, there has not been any monotheistic Sun worship. At the very least, it has always been Sun and Moon worship as seperate entities. Not only that, but comparing abrahamis religion to sun worship is like comparing a lighter to banging together two rocks. They both make fire, but the one is a bit more developed. The closest comparison I've been able to find was Sumerian and Babylonian religions. The babylonian mystery religion was still in practice in the late 400's when christianity was made the Roman state religion. Sumerian/Mesopotamian religion and links to the epic of Gilgamesh are all throughout Genesis.

I guess I'm trying to say, if you're going to toss about weird comparisons, at least compare a lighter to a pack of matches, wouldya?
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M*W: There are no weird comparisons of any nature. Not that ancient history hasn't been so weird, but it is what it is. The Abrahamaic religions actually came about before sun worship by centuries. The Abrahamic religions (as can be documented by scholarly historians) relate that these ancient religions were polytheists who worshipped the gods du jour. Sun worship came about as nova said with the Egyptian pharaoh Akhenaten (aka Moses) during the time of the alleged legendary Exodus. The scholarly thought on the Exodus was that it was only Akhenaten fleeing Egypt, not because he killed a man as the OT would state, but because he was a fanatical sun worshipper and the forefather of the Habiru (the ancient Hebrews).

This has been well-documented by ancient historians and there is a consensus of its validity. My point being that whether modern day people like it or not, this is true ancient history. It may not be what the bible and other story books say, but it is the truth, not myth. There are many documented references to this ancient history, but unfortunately, I cannot provide them at this time. Your patriarchal god decided to destroy my city with Hurricane Ike, and I am staying with my loved ones (yes, even this old atheist still has loved ones) who have provided me with water, food and power. That's why I keep saying that my family is my god.
 
My mistake then. We believe different versions of history itself. I had always held the belief that a version of Wicca had actually been the first "religion", where man-like beings worshipped the sun which gave them warmth, and the moon which allowed them to hunt stealthily with light. I always pictured this kind of worship from the forerunners of Homo Sapiens. In this light, perhaps you can understand my confusion.
 
Hi friends,
I'm muslim n from Pakistan:)
We,as a muslim believe that from the arrival of ADAM on earth first religion was ISLAM but orders were different as in todays islam.All messengers of God came with islam but teachings were different with same base.
Now ,Present days,We have to obey MUHAMMAD(P.B.U.H)...Its for me:)
As a humen being we all are brother n sister and we have to litsen each other....m I wrong?
 
Mr. Hamtastic said:
My mistake then. We believe different versions of history itself. I had always held the belief that a version of Wicca had actually been the first "religion", where man-like beings worshipped the sun which gave them warmth, and the moon which allowed them to hunt stealthily with light. I always pictured this kind of worship from the forerunners of Homo Sapiens. In this light, perhaps you can understand my confusion.
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M*W: I had that same belief once about Wicca. Wicca means something like Earth-wise. It's also the forerunner word for "witch." To me, calling someone a "witch" is like saying they are wise. Ancient homo sapiens probably did worship the earth, skies and elements (Wicca).
 
Many people have worshipped symbols for God or god or goddesses
such as the Sun or Moon
while thinking of these things as stand-ins for transcendant or all-encompassing deities.

Simply because they used a Sun symbol did not mean that they thought our star was God.
Certainly some did. Others likely did not.

It is the same issue around the different Gods. Certain some monotheists think they worship the right God and the others worship the wrong one. But there are also a great many who think of religions as traditional means of reaching the same God, despite the differences in rituals and stories.

In a sense it is like how poorly most people could explain evolution - those who believe in it - in comparison with biologists and people who are right now studying it at Uni. level. Most people's ideas of it would be garbled and confused and often incorrect.

To say that Yahweh is really the Sun or some such, is to make a lot of assumptions. It also shows a lack of awareness of what mystics believe and what many of their followers believe.

I am no fan of the Abrahamic religions, but the faith involved in some people's interpretations here is at least as hysterical as the goofiest fundamentalist snake handler's.
 
farooqrashid said:
Hi friends,
I'm muslim n from Pakistan:)
We,as a muslim believe that from the arrival of ADAM on earth first religion was ISLAM but orders were different as in todays islam.All messengers of God came with islam but teachings were different with same base.
Now ,Present days,We have to obey MUHAMMAD(P.B.U.H)...Its for me:)
As a humen being we all are brother n sister and we have to litsen each other....m I wrong?
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Welcome to Sciforums farooqrashid, really this thread isn't about what people believe is true as much as it is about what the archaeological evidence suggests is true.

Cheers,
MII

PS: You wouldn't happen to know the day and year the Qur'an was canonized (finished and complete)? I'm asking DAY and YEAR. Of course you don't. Isn't that interesting? I suppose at the time, no one thought it was an important enough book to note down it's completion, you know, the creation of the world's only Perfect Book was on day such and such.... meh, either that or probably the Qur'an is made up like all other religous books to control what people think and do.
 
Michael said:
PS: You wouldn't happen to know the day and year the Qur'an was canonized (finished and complete)? I'm asking DAY and YEAR. Of course you don't. Isn't that interesting? I suppose at the time, no one thought it was an important enough book to note down it's completion, you know, the creation of the world's only Perfect Book was on day such and such.... meh, either that or probably the Qur'an is made up like all other religous books to control what people think and do.
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Day and year? Why stop there? You might as well ask us if the Qur'an's compilation occurred during a leap year, or better yet, what hour of the day it was. The Qur'an was revealed to Muhammad in fragments, which he subsequently recited to his companions, all of whom instantly memorized the verses (I think it's safe to say that every major companion to the Prophet was a hafiz). The Qur'an was written under the command of Caliph Uthman, who wanted all Muslims to have a written copy of the Divine text in order to avoid religious confusion and controversy. Since the committee finished compiling the written version of the Qur'an late in Uthman's reign, which lasted from 644-656, it's safe to say the date you're looking for can be pinned down to ~653, give or take a year.

If you're interested, you can search "Uthman Qur'an" or "Tashkent Qur'an" via search engine. The Uthman Qur'an is the oldest Qur'an in existence today; legend has it, Uthman's very blood is scattered across the pages as a result of his assassination. The Uthman Qur'an has a fascinating history to it: from Uthman to Ali, Timur to Vladimir Lenin, finally to Central Asia.


Kadark
 
Michael said:
Welcome to Sciforums farooqrashid, really this thread isn't about what people believe is true as much as it is about what the archaeological evidence suggests is true.

Cheers,
MII

PS: You wouldn't happen to know the day and year the Qur'an was canonized (finished and complete)? I'm asking DAY and YEAR. Of course you don't. Isn't that interesting? I suppose at the time, no one thought it was an important enough book to note down it's completion, you know, the creation of the world's only Perfect Book was on day such and such.... meh, either that or probably the Qur'an is made up like all other religous books to control what people think and do.
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Yeah what's with the QRan? Thought it was perfect.

The Torah was given to the Israelites in the Sinai Desert on the 6th day of Sivan 2448 years after Creation. This corresponds to early summer of the year 1313 BCE.
 
Kadark said:
Day and year? Why stop there?
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Why not?

The oldest existent Qur'an was compiled in the latter half of the 7th century and it's called the Sana'a manuscript. It's different than the one in your house.

Interesting huh?

As academic scholars dissect this Qur'an what they have found is more of a kind of cocktail of texts much of which is based on ancient Christian wittings. Which is why I find the Syriac/Aramaic Qur'anic interpretation very interesting - it turns parts that are Arabic gibberish in to sensible sentences.

Wouldn't you agree?
Michael

PS: My friend Mohammad is going to (maybe today) get me a PS3 for almost $100 cheaper :) yeah me :D
 
Michael said:
The oldest existent Qur'an was compiled in the latter half of the 7th century and it's called the Sana'a manuscript. It's different than the one in your house.
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The Yemeni fragments are no different from the Arabic Qur'an in circulation today. I noticed in your post, Michael, that you quoted Gerd Puin. Do you mind if I quote Gerd Puin from a letter of his, dealing with the Sana'a manuscripts, following the publication of the Atlantic Montly article?

"The important thing, thank God, is that these Yemeni Qur'anic fragments do not differ from those found in museums and libraries elsewhere, with the exception of details that do not touch the Qur'an itself, but are rather differences in the way words are spelled. This phenomenon is well-known, even in the Qur'an published in Cairo in which is written:

Ibrhim next to Ibrhm

Quran next to Qrn

Simahum next to Simhum

In the oldest Yemeni Qur'anic fragments, for example, the phenomenon of not writing the vowel alif is rather common."

M. M. Azami, The History of the Qur'anic Text from Revelation to Compilation: A Comparative Study with the Old and New Testaments, UK Islamic Academy, 2003 pp. 12

Interesting huh?
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Indeed.

PS: My friend Mohammad is going to (maybe today) get me a PS3 for almost $100 cheaper :) yeah me :D
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Nice. I'm waiting for the slim version.


Kadark
 
Kadark,

Are you trying to suggest that there are no Qur'an variations? That's silly, there are variations. Even Qur'an today in 2008 have some kinds of variations. Perhaps not enough to alter the over all message, but, as no two muslims can agree even when reading from the same Qur'an, so what? I mean, the Egyptian book of the dead was carved on stone, is 5000 years old and ooo aaahhh has not changed...

Michael

I wanted the 80 gig and other than that, meh...
 
My PS3 spends more time as a paerweight than as a gaming system. I just haven't found any games that really captured my attention. I've bought a bunch, and rented more. I use it as a blu-ray dvd player sometimes. Freakin expensive dvd player if you ask me.

I wish I knew more about Islam. The limited knowledge I have, and especially considering that it all comes from christian or Jewish sources, makes it highly suspect. Please accept my apology now if I am about to offend.

1. Sunni vs Shiite what's the difference?

2. Does the Qu'ran actually say that anyone who doesn't become a muslim is an infidel and should be put to death?

3. What is the idle talk I hear that the Islamic God is not the Abrahamic God, but is actually based on the worship of a "moon god" by idolators?

4. What is the Islamic view on idolatry?

5. Why do American muslims I meet tell me that they are "nothing" like the middle eastern muslims?

6. Why do I almost always ask questions in sets of five? No wait. Don't count that one.
 
Medicine*Woman said:
*************
The Abrahamaic religions actually came about before sun worship by centuries. The Abrahamic religions (as can be documented by scholarly historians) relate that these ancient religions were polytheists who worshipped the gods du jour. Sun worship came about as nova said with the Egyptian pharaoh Akhenaten (aka Moses) during the time of the alleged legendary Exodus. The scholarly thought on the Exodus was that it was only Akhenaten fleeing Egypt, not because he killed a man as the OT would state, but because he was a fanatical sun worshipper and the forefather of the Habiru (the ancient Hebrews).

This has been well-documented by ancient historians and there is a consensus of its validity.
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The webpage below is a little long and detailed but may be of interest to some here.

"THE DAWN OF MONOTHEISM REVISITED"

http://www.solami.com/a1.htm

It's probably likely the Ancient Hebrews moved out of Egypt into the area around Canaan
observed the deities that the Canaanites worshipped and decided to "adopt" Yahweh as a strong male figure God and incorporate their knowledge of Egyptian Mythology and others into their own. Not an uncommon practice for ancient peoples as history seems to suggest...the Greeks were enamored by the Egyptians and incorporated their Gods/Goddesses into their own pantheon,the Romans later did the same with the Greek Gods/Goddesses as their civilization rose and the Greeks declined.
 
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That stuff is almost as frightening as the Masonic order or the Illuminatti. It's always interesting when historians get creative.
 
Its not just the Sun and Moon, there is Saturn, Venus, Mercury, Jupiter too and the whole zodiac, its the emphasis that differs, why you think there is massive sun clock in Vaticans yard with big obelisk ?
Or why there is massive statue of a pine cone (pineal gland) in there ?
 
Michael said:
Are you trying to suggest that there are no Qur'an variations? That's silly, there are variations. Even Qur'an today in 2008 have some kinds of variations. Perhaps not enough to alter the over all message ...
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There are no legitimate variations of the Qur'an in Arabic; however, translated versions certainly do differ, although that is to be expected. If certain Arabic versions look different from one another, then the reason is attributable to the composer's inherent dialect of Arabic. Uthman knew the rich variety of dialects in Arabia could pose as a potential hazard to religious unity, so he insisted on the Qur'an's written form to be in the Quraishi dialect (the dialect in which the Qur'an was revealed to Muhammad). As a solution, Uthman burned all of the scriptures written in any dialect other than Quraishi, so as to ensure clarity and consistency within the original scriptures.

but, as no two muslims can agree even when reading from the same Qur'an, so what?
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Are you implying that variations of the Qur'an exist simply because not all Muslims see eye to eye on every single religious issue imaginable? That is not a logical proposition, Michael. It is entirely possible for two people to disagree on a book, even if the book in question has no variations. It's simply a matter of how you choose to interpret the text, and how generously you incorporate secondary sources into your studies (in the case of Islam, the hadiths).

I mean, the Egyptian book of the dead was carved on stone, is 5000 years old and ooo aaahhh has not changed...
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That's nice.


Kadark
 
Kadark said:
There are no legitimate variations of the Qur'an in Arabic
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I noticed you qualified your post with the word legitimate - which in essence means, anything that differs from what Kadark has decided is the legitimate qur'an.

We can play this game with any book in the world, play, interpretation, anything.

There are no legitimate variations of the Bible. The Bible is the Perfect word of God.


There are no legitimate variations of Scientology. The Dianetics is the Perfect word of Xenu.

bla bla bla ... ...


We've been over this so many times I'm not sure if it's even worth digging up the old thread.



That aside, I was talking to an exMuslim girl I work with she's now is just "spiritual". Anyway, the funny thing is, I was crapping on about Scientology and how's it's kind of funny that people believe this Alian Overlord stuff and suddenly she told me back in her country she was a Scientologists! Haaaa! I almost choked. Back when she lived in the ME she converted from Islam to Scientology! Can you imagine! I said, you're not now are you? She said no, after two years she had thought to herself, this religion is really really stupid and quit. Pffffff..... apparently there are a lot more Scientologists in ME countries than you would ever imagine. They pretend to be Muslim but really have this "secret" beleif and apparently this fits well with ME psyche - the whole idea of having a hidden beleif. Plus, according to her, lots of young people actually (get this) actually join because they heard Tom Cruise was doing it and it must be cool. So not only is it secret BUT it's cool too!

Too funny,

Michael

I missed my friends call again and no cheap retail priced PS3 for me :bawl: so I will have to wait to next week :bawl:
 
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