Christian and Sex

[Roman]

Humans are naturally perfect, it is our inhereted cultural institutions that are flawed.

Culture is a purely human aspect. If humans are perfect, how are the inherent human aspects, such as developing culture, flawed? Or is culture merely a reaction to an incomplete knowledge of one's environment, and so inherently flawed as it's based on something that's only partly true?
In which case, if humans are fallible, how are they perfect?

The institution of marriage, as old as one wishes to go back, pretty much existed for economic and political purposes. It's rather a recent phenomena that marriages are based around love.
In the 12th and 13th centuries, it was common for the upper European classes to have extramarital, because only the poor could afford to marry out of love. Adultery, at least among the upperclasses, was pretty common place and not nearly as universally derided as it is now.
Of course, the lower classes were something else entirely.

 

[Light Travelling]

It is well known that Christians think pre marital sex is wrong, but does it actually say that in the bible. The bible certainly says divorce, adultary and promiscuity are wrong but I cannot personally find the place where it says pre marital sex is forbidden (perhaps someone would like to quote chapter and verse on that).

I can find one passage where A man and woman have sex and then he is obliged to marry her, but after marrying there seems to be no problem!

Another thing - where does it define in the bible what constitutes getting married. I cannot find a certain prescribed ceremany laid out? Does just publicly accepting a man as a husband constitue marraige / does living together assume marraige has taken place. The bible is certainly unclear on this.

When you look at genesis marraiges there seems to be no specific ceremony or preist involved?

 

[Light Travelling]

If God has no problem with sex, Lori, why is it that the Wisdom gained from the Tree of Knowledge made Adam and Eve ashamed of their nakedness? Underlying message? According to the Bible, wisdom says our nakedness is cause for shame.

You know, it's sex and orgasms. How could Christians, or anybody else, call it wisdom to start that cycle of shame?

Why be ashamed? Why not look at the other and say, "Oh, this is gonna be fun."

How could anyone get it so wrong as the Christians? And with such horrifying consequences?

And I'm aware there's some cave-dwelling, separatist Jewish monk responsible for writing down Genesis, but hey, there's only 13 million or so Jews left in the world, so perhaps they better throw out the shame of Genesis and start boffing to reinforce their numbers.

Imagine the day when the stereotypical Jew is expected to be self-assured, sexy as hell, and able to go all night.

Imagine the day when stereotypes of Christians no longer center on the blithering idiocy of public theology. The thing is that Christians are fully capable of making each other feel as if they're touched by the Lord. Fully capable of making each other scream hosannas to God.

But there's that nakedness. It's shameful, you know. Because, as we see in the Bible, Adam and Eve covered themselves up after they got wisdom because the wise know that nakedness is cause for shame.

Christians and sexuality is a theological and doctrinal tragedy of human proportions. I once read a whacked theory that blamed the victims of the Inquisitions, claiming their confessions were part of a sick, sexually-driven (and sublimated) game. That's right, the Christians who carried out the Inquisitions are to be excused because they were confused by the sexual fantasies of the people they killed and tortured. As crazy as it sounds, however, there's a strong possibility that the theory has some credibility. In the modern period, we at least have psychology, psychiatry, and other sciences to help us understand sexuality. But, you know, faithful Christians confessing to witchcraft under the effect of torture, hoping to be burned at the stake? Yes, I suppose that bizarre theory gains some credibility when we pause and wonder about Christians and the shame of nakedness.

Robyn Hitchcock sang, "God finds you naked and He leaves you dying. What happens in between is up to you." I love that line, because how is the state in which you are delivered to the world with God's blessing unacceptable?

The problem isnt with the bible its with peoples iterpretation of it. Look again at genesis and the fall and read it for yourselves if you haven't.

1. original sin was not sex.
2. original sin was by satan the fallen angel - it was a sin of pride.
3. Satan had to fall first to then tempt eve to fall
4. adam and eves sin was also either one of pride (defying god) or greed (seeking extra knowledge / power) depending on how you look at it.
4. nakedness and sex are not synonymous
5. The nakedness of adam and eve is a metephor not literal.
6. when adam and eve do actually have sex later on in genesis and create a son it is not spoken of as a bad thing at all.

The 'sex is sin' intereptaion is a a deliberate faslehood made by the early priesthood to gain control over populations by convincing them they are all sinners, as obviously noone can help haveing sex, and then only the priest hood can save them. The bible does not say categorically sex is sin and we are all sinners - this is a false interpretation.

 

[craterchains (Norval]

Then there is the passage that reads; :In that day seven women will take hold of one man saying, Let us call ourselves by your name, we will provide our own food and clothes."

hmmm 7 to 1,

alot of :m: would probably help,,,

 

[lixluke]

Sure cool skill, I can agree that you're a bad christian if you engage in pre-marital sex. You're simply not following the rules. Then again, they all just want to be saved with minimal effort on their part.

Which effort?
There is simply no rule in the bible against consenting individuals having premerital sex.

 

[okinrus]

The 'sex is sin' intereptaion is a a deliberate faslehood made by the early priesthood to gain control over populations by convincing them they are all sinners

OK, first give one sermon or official church document that says "sex is sin". Maybe you're confusing sex before marriage or maybe adultry, but no one in his or her right mind would call sex within marriage a sin.

In the 12th and 13th centuries, it was common for the upper European classes to have extramarital

Do you have any proof for these statements?

because only the poor could afford to marry out of love. Adultery, at least among the upperclasses, was pretty common place and not nearly as universally derided as it is now.

You're saying only the poor could marry out of love, but surely someone with more money, say someone in the upper class, could marry out of love.

 

[SnakeLord]

Scripture = Truth.

Funniest shit I've heard all week.

The law is so crooked, that they even recognize Christmas day as an official national holiday. If you are going to recognize a Christian holiday under law along with all the grubby atheist holidays, you might as well recognize Holy Week/easter.

christmas isn't a christian holiday. It's Sol Invictus, (the winter harvest), in celebration of a sun god born on 25th december. Same goes for easter, (ostara).. All pagan festivals man, not christian.

 

[Ozymandias]

christmas isn't a christian holiday. It's Sol Invictus, (the winter harvest), in celebration of a sun god born on 25th december. Same goes for easter, (ostara).. All pagan festivals man, not christian.

how do the origins of anything determine their nature in the modern world?

 

[SnakeLord]

Fine...

christmas isn't a christian holiday. It's a childrens holiday where they say thanks to getting presents from a fat guy with a snowy white beard who flies around with several coloured nosed reindeers.

Having said that... in the "modern world", christmas is all about Elves, magical flying dust, secret toy laboratories hidden in the north pole and reindeers that have the ability to talk to a chuckling obese man who can magically squeeze down chimney's even though most houses don't have chimneys.

Does that sound very "christian" to you? Ooh yes, christian holiday.. lol give it up.

But anyway, the origin of a festival determines a lot. Have you never even asked or wondered why at christmas you have a tree standing in your living room? Let me guess, you thought it was jesus' favourite tree or something? *ehehehe* Etc etc etc.

Now, christians might pretend it's their festival, but it isn't - just like I can pretend christmas is actually the day of celebration for the day my pet dog first got laid, but that doesn't change what the festivals real meaning is.

Not to mention no christian scholar would even state that jesus was born in December.

But hey, I wouldn't want to deprive you of your cd's and nicely patterned socks. Enjoy it.

 

[Ozymandias]

christmas isn't a christian holiday. It's a childrens holiday where they say thanks to getting presents from a fat guy with a snowy white beard who flies around with several coloured nosed reindeers.

Yes, I'm sure that the commercial media determines what kind of holiday it is.

Let me guess, you thought it was jesus' favourite tree or something? *ehehehe*

Do you find some gratification in these little jibes?

...but that doesn't change what the festivals real meaning is.

Who determines the meaning of the festival? Can't you take advantage of publicly-recognized meaning for the festival to simply celebrate whatever the hell you want? Yes.

No real christian would consider December 25th as a christian holiday, because it isn't. All that jesus in his crib garbage when no christian scholar would state he was born in December anyway.

The date is arbitrary: this does not mean that the birth of Jesus Christ, of course not exactly on the 25th, is not cause for celebration amongst Christians.

 

[Light Travelling]

OK, first give one sermon or official church document that says "sex is sin". Maybe you're confusing sex before marriage or maybe adultry, but no one in his or her right mind would call sex within marriage a sin.

It is well documented that for a long time the catholic church has held the position that sex for pleasure and not pro-creation is wrong (a sin). We are all born in sin (through the sexual act), which is why the virgin birth of Mary is so important to them, because this allows Jesus to be born without sin.

 

[SnakeLord]

Yes, I'm sure that the commercial media determines what kind of holiday it is.

Sure.. And of course realising that there are more than just christians on the planet, christmas is a time for everyone - whether religious or not. As a result, it's not a christian holiday, and nor was it ever one.

Do you find some gratification in these little jibes?

Yes. But in either case, there is actually a question in there that has relevance to what you asked.

Who determines the meaning of the festival? Can't you take advantage of publicly-recognized meaning for the festival to simply celebrate whatever the hell you want? Yes.

So come mothers day, you can celebrate the day you had your wisdom teeth removed, or is it a time to actually celebrate how wonderful your mother is? I guess you can do both, but that doesn't change what mothers day is. Christians can celebrate anything they want come December, but that does not make it a christian holiday. It is still Sol Invictus, no matter what persons name they put in the place of it.

The date is arbitrary: this does not mean that the birth of Jesus Christ, of course not exactly on the 25th, is not cause for celebration amongst Christians.

Of course they wouldn't face that problem if anyone actually knew when the guy was born - if he even existed. Nobody knows.. Hell, they didn't even know back then, which is why they hijacked someone elses festival and called it their own.

 

[Go Down Moses]

And of course realising that there are more than just christians on the planet, christmas is a time for everyone - whether religious or not. As a result, it's not a christian holiday, and nor was it ever one.

What a load of poppycock.

It certainly is a Christian Holiday for ME and for more than a billion other people on the planet. Where do you get off defining what meaning holidays have for other people? The reality, or meaning, of any holiday is what is derived or extracted by the celebrants. And it may not be the same for all of them and is most likely NOT the same for all of them.

Or did you mean to say that it's not a Christian holiday for some of the people on the planet?

 

[Ozymandias]

I guess you can do both, but that doesn't change what mothers day is. Christians can celebrate anything they want come December, but that does not make it a christian holiday. It is still Sol Invictus, no matter what persons name they put in the place of it.

Again, who has the authority to determine a holiday? Only the person celebrating it.

Its origins have no effect whatsoever on its current nature. It is a Christian holiday for some and it might be Sol Invictus for others. In any case, there is nothing either of us can say or information we can use to prove it definitively to be a holiday solely for the celebration of things Christian or non-Christian. That's just dumb.

Hell, they didn't even know back then, which is why they hijacked someone elses festival and called it their own.

Actually, it's because it makes the conversion process easier.

It is a Christian holiday for the people who celebrate it as one.

 

[yank]

i don't understand... why is the basic act thats driving life considered as a sin???

 

[Light Travelling]

The whole point is that no religious text has ever said it was. It is people mi-interpreting these texts that have changed the meaning.

 

[Lori_7]

It is well known that Christians think pre marital sex is wrong, but does it actually say that in the bible. The bible certainly says divorce, adultary and promiscuity are wrong but I cannot personally find the place where it says pre marital sex is forbidden (perhaps someone would like to quote chapter and verse on that).

I can find one passage where A man and woman have sex and then he is obliged to marry her, but after marrying there seems to be no problem!

Another thing - where does it define in the bible what constitutes getting married. I cannot find a certain prescribed ceremany laid out? Does just publicly accepting a man as a husband constitue marraige / does living together assume marraige has taken place. The bible is certainly unclear on this.

When you look at genesis marraiges there seems to be no specific ceremony or preist involved?

Nice post and good point LT. Maybe if more people would actually read the Bible themselves, and seek the counsel of the Holy Spirit in trying to understand it, instead of just plain making shit up, or pointing their fingers at and quoting stupid church people, we'd actually be able to have an intelligent discussion every once in a while. Fact is that will never happen, because these people will cite any noncredible source available, as long as it supports their choice to reject Christ.

 

[craterchains (Norval]

I prefer the way of God,,,,, before modern society screwed it all up.
Concubines AND wives ! ! !

 

[SaPhZ]

I am Christian, I didn't have sex before marriage. Have I sinned in other things? Of course. Everyone has. If you ever pick up a bible, as quoted earlier, read the book of Romans. Your post is uninformed, but asking is a possible step to the answer. Annother possibility is reading..