Chemical evolution:

You are ignorant then that peptide chains growing in a racemix mix of amino acids will themselves have racemic chirality precisely because chirality is unimportant for simple chain growth. There is no 'filtering' in such an environment. It is however vital for there to be homochirality in any biological setting.
Irrelevant.
There was no "biological setting" involved.
Point to a single instance in the literature where clays or other inorganic 'templates' have enabled homochiral long molecular chains.
Crystals (including clays) are often composed of long homochiral molecular chains.

Point being: There was plenty of chiral substrate on the pre-biotic planet, and a lot of it was replicating. There's your selection pressure - better fit to a substrate, better coordinated chemistry in feeding etc, etc.

That's the mainstream take. The more radical takes include things like this:
You've seen this before: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/02/160211141747.htm
Cairns-Smith asked himself two questions: What are the essential properties needed for a living system, and can those properties be found anywhere other than the forms of life that we know today?

His aim was to find a system much simpler than modern life, but which had some of the crucial properties of a living system. He found an answer in an unlikely place: clays.
 
paddoboy:

I'm not sure what you think you gain by repeating yourself constantly. Wrong the first time means wrong for the next 100 repeats as well. It would save you a lot of time if you simply conceded the point, but your ego never lets you. Everything has to be a contest for you.

Actually I posted reputable links pointing out your error.
You appear to be referring back to a done-and-dusted discussion we had. If you have nothing new to add, I'm going to assume I dealt with your objections previously. I'm sure I wouldn't have ignored your objections.

I reject your answer ....
What a surprise!

Why you feel the need to simply repeat the same claim, when I have already explained what's wrong with it, is a mystery. I guess it gives your ego a kick or something.

Yes, we see a lot of people, reputable people assume Abiogenesis, because it is the only answer.
Argumentem ad populum. A logical fallacy.

The only alternative is an unscientific supernatural and paranormal view that creationists/IDers like to imagine.
How do you know that's the only alternative? (See my post above.)

But hey! at least dmoe is "liking" your posts.:D
Maybe you should ask him why, if what he likes matters so much to you.

So which do you accept James? The scientific fact as evidenced by the part chemistry played in evolution itself, or the ancient derived myth of some magical spaghetti monster in the sky somewhere?
Isn't my position clear to you yet?

Take a guess. I'll tell you if you're right.

But what you need to remember is that science has pushed the need for any sort of ID, back to near oblivion, and from the dark old days of imagining the Sun as God, the Moon, Mountains, rivers, etc etc.
And so? That doesn't mean a fully-fledged theory of abiogenesis springs magically into being.
 
An axiom is "a proposition that is not susceptible to proof or disproof, whose truth is assumed to be self-evident".
It is not assumed, but demonstrably self-evident, unless you want to discredit science and scientific language.
i.e. the Table of Elements.
I don't accept abiogenesis as a self-evident truth because I don't like to pretend to know things I don't know. While I strongly suspect that a scientific theory of abiogenesis will be developed in the future, it's not an article of faith for me.
Do you doubt that abiogenesis is a chemical process? Are the constituent atomic and molecular parts of non-living objects different from the constituent atomic and molecular parts in living objects?
What is the chemical difference between a live beetle and a dead beetle ? Nothing! Only the chemical pattern arrangement has changed!
I don't pretend to know the origin of life. It is not self-evident that it came from non-life through natural processes. That would be a faith-based assumption (or, if you prefer, a philosophical preference) tacked on to the idea of abiogenesis.
I believe you are focusing on the wrong facts. It has nothing to do with faith or process. The process has been identified as an inanimate chemical state somehow changing into an animate chemical state. The cause for change is unimportant, it is and was chemical in nature. This "understanding" is unassailable. Hence the axiom.
When you say "It is the only alternative", how do you know that? Why are "God did it" and "Chemical processes did it" the only options? Are you sure you've exhausted all other possibilities? How can you be sure?
Because science has established (demonstrated) that the fundamental physical properties of the universe are chemical in nature. At least that's how science has identified them in the Table of Elements. No religion can change the Table of Elements.

Can you think of a physical object that is non-chemical in its constituents? Are we inventing new non-chemical atomic and molecular physics?

AFAIK, Abiogenesis does not dispute the chemical nature of physical objects, it only disputes the causality of change.

The term "chemical" is inescapable when speaking about Physics, animate or inanimate.

p.s. Even the assumption of a mathematical universe expresses reality as atomic and molecular chemical patterns....:)


Question: Are subatomic particles chemical in nature or do they represent only non-chemical mathematical values?
 
Last edited:
The "mainstream" is this: -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Oxidation_Event. complicated by this: https://scitechdaily.com/geological-record-shows-earths-oxygen-came-from-mantle-cooling/ and this: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/02/160211141747.htm

Anoxic and reducing environments are widespread and packed with complex chemistry even now, when the entire planet is covered with living beings that chew into and scarf up defenseless chemical "species" like little vacuum cleaners. Before the evolution of photosynthesis and (coincidental?) mantle cooling poisoned the entire atmosphere with oxygen - an event marked by the worldwide appearance of rust deposits in the geological record - reducing environments were even more readily available.

As were complex and elaborate nonliving chemical structures - before there were millions of little feeders in every cubic centimeter of water/rock/clay etc on the surface, chowing on anything they could digest, the entire surface of the planet was one big chemistry lab - with electricity.
Earth's atmosphere was oxidizing before the earliest evidence for life:
http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/earth_early_atmosphere.html
And your assertion '...As were complex and elaborate nonliving chemical structures...' in a prebiotic world is just that, an unevidenced assertion.
 
Irrelevant.
There was no "biological setting" involved.
You misinterpret what I wrote.
Crystals (including clays) are often composed of long homochiral molecular chains.
The context of my words you quote should have been real clear - I obviously meant homochiral organic molecules, originating on clay surface templates, that had the ability to self-replicate.
Point being: There was plenty of chiral substrate on the pre-biotic planet, and a lot of it was replicating. There's your selection pressure - better fit to a substrate, better coordinated chemistry in feeding etc, etc.

That's the mainstream take. The more radical takes include things like this:
You've seen this before: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/02/160211141747.htm
The muddled history and actual iffy at best status of Cairns-Smith clay hypothesis, and similar efforts:
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160823-the-idea-that-life-began-as-clay-crystals-is-50-years-old
 
Isn't my position clear to you yet?
Yep, your position is quite clear and like q-reeus' position, I reject it in favour of the more popular position.
Take a guess. I'll tell you if you're right.
Why don't you stop your silly condescending replies and act like an adult.
I've given links and I am far more inclined to accept them for obvious reasons, then your own 'fence sitting" and that of the IDer q-reeus.
And so? That doesn't mean a fully-fledged theory of abiogenesis springs magically into being.
Abiogenesis is the only scientific theory/assumption/process we have and can be confident in, as opposed to any unscientific creationist crap.
 
Yep, your position is quite clear and like q-reeus' position, I reject it in favour of the more popular position.

Why don't you stop your silly condescending replies and act like an adult.
I've given links and I am far more inclined to accept them for obvious reasons, then your own 'fence sitting" and that of the IDer q-reeus.

Abiogenesis is the only scientific theory/assumption/process we have and can be confident in, as opposed to any unscientific creationist crap.
And what 'fence sitting' am I accused of now?
 
Yep, your position is quite clear and like q-reeus' position, I reject it in favour of the more popular position.
Science isn't a popularity contest.

Why don't you stop your silly condescending replies and act like an adult.
Am I supposed to take every idiotic question you ask seriously?

I'm on the record as being an atheist. That means I don't believe in any gods, including supernatural spaghetti monsters. Obviously. So go figure out the obvious implications of that.

Abiogenesis is the only scientific theory/assumption/process we have and can be confident in, as opposed to any unscientific creationist crap.
You've gone from "theory" to "theory/assumption/process". You know there's no theory and you don't have a process, so why not act like an adult and admit I've been right all along?
 
Yes, we see a lot of people, reputable people assume Abiogenesis, because it is the only answer.

So what is this "answer"? Presumably "abiogenesis" is more than just an incantation that supposedly explodes theists. (You need the right kind of magic wand for that.)

So what do you take its actual content to be, what do you think that it means?

You act like you possess this "answer" that you write about constantly, or at least can say something intelligent and "scientific" about what it is, what its qualities and implications are, and how you know that it exists.

Perhaps it's time to do that, to spell out precisely and in detail what you are on about.

The only alternative is an unscientific supernatural and paranormal view that creationists/IDers like to imagine.

I most assuredly agree with James in thinking that you've just created a false dichotomy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

So which do you accept James? The scientific fact as evidenced by the part chemistry played in evolution itself, or the ancient derived myth of some magical spaghetti monster in the sky somewhere?

So what's wrong with just admitting that nobody currently knows how life originated? Let alone knows what the ultimate shape and contour of reality is.

Admitting that you don't know what you don't know is certainly more intellectually respectable than pretending to know things that neither you nor any other human being can possibly know.

Lowering yourself to what you take to be the level of your opponents and preaching your own alternative faith-based belief system isn't the best way to battle what you believe to be obscurantism, Paddoboy.

You need to be smarter than they are, not make yourself just like them.
 
Last edited:
Write4U:

For some reason, people in this thread have come to the conclusion that I don't think science will solve the problem of abiogenesis. That's despite my clearly saying several times that I think it will. I have said nothing about how I think God did it, or a flying spaghetti monster, or anything else.

It is not assumed, but demonstrably self-evident, unless you want to discredit science and scientific language.
Currently, there is no scientific theory of abiogenesis. If you assume there is one, or you think it is self-evident, I can't help you. All I can do is to tell you the facts.

Do you doubt that abiogenesis is a chemical process?
I don't know how it happened. Do you?

Are the constituent atomic and molecular parts of non-living objects different from the constituent atomic and molecular parts in living objects?
If you're asking whether living things are made of the same kinds of atoms as non-living things, the answer is, broadly speaking, yes. But you already knew that, didn't you?

What is the chemical difference between a live beetle and a dead beetle ? Nothing! Only the chemical pattern arrangement has changed!
You make it sound simple. Why, then, can't you bring a dead beetle back to life? Or create a living beetle from scratch (without other beetles)?

I believe you are focusing on the wrong facts. It has nothing to do with faith or process. The process has been identified as an inanimate chemical state somehow changing into an animate chemical state.
The key word being, in this discussion, "somehow".

The cause for change is unimportant, it is and was chemical in nature.
You should send a note to all the scientists who are working on the problem, to tell them it's not important.

This "understanding" is unassailable.
What understanding?

Hence the axiom.
Assumption. Your assumption, you mean.

Because science has established (demonstrated) that the fundamental physical properties of the universe are chemical in nature. At least that's how science has identified them in the Table of Elements. No religion can change the Table of Elements.
Chemistry is (just) a subset of physics, roughly speaking. Not everything is a chemical.

Can you think of a physical object that is non-chemical in its constituents?
Yes. A neutron star.

Are we inventing new non-chemical atomic and molecular physics?
I don't know what you're inventing. All I'm saying is I don't know how life started. You're the one pretending to know.

AFAIK, Abiogenesis does not dispute the chemical nature of physical objects, it only disputes the causality of change.
"abiogenesis" is just a label for whatever (currently unknown) process formed life from non-life.

The term "chemical" is inescapable when speaking about Physics, animate or inanimate.
Wrong. Chemistry is concerned essentially with how atoms bond together, which is largely due to what their electrons are doing. There are huge areas of physics that are completely unconcerned with the details of atoms and their electrons.

p.s. Even the assumption of a mathematical universe expresses reality as atomic and molecular chemical patterns....:)

Assumption piled upon assumption. Why do you insist on doing that?

Question: Are subatomic particles chemical in nature or do they represent only non-chemical mathematical values?
Chemistry is concerned with physics at the atomic level. At the subatomic level, chemistry is irrelevant. By asking whether subatomic particles are chemical, it only shows that you really don't know what chemistry is the study of.

I've also told you before that no mathematical values can create "stuff", and that includes atoms and sub-atomic particles. Maths is an abstraction.
 
You've gone from "theory" to "theory/assumption/process". You know there's no theory and you don't have a process, so why not act like an adult and admit I've been right all along?
You're not right, just as you're not right with your denial of theory of evolution being fact and theory.
I't's a process of how life came to be....It's a theory, the only one we have of how life came to be, It's the scientific assumption of how life came to be....take your pick, it certainly over rides your contention of trying to establish the unscientific myth of ID....
https://www.quora.com/Is-abiogenesi...-solid-theories-concerning-the-origin-of-life

by Krister Sundelin
E-learning Producer (2020-present)
Updated September 22 · Upvoted by
Keith Robison
, Ph.D. In Molecular&Cellular Biology; in Biopharma since 1996
Q: Is abiogenesis mostly considered fact by scientists, or is it merely a belief held by atheists due to lack of solid theories concerning the origin of life?

A: Atheists have nothing to do with it. Atheists only don’t believe in gods.

Abiogenesis is a serious field of study in biochemistry, biology, and genetics, in which those scientists hypothesise different ways of how you can get life from non-life and test their ideas.

The hypotheses are not a complete path from non-life to life. Scientists don’t start with a bunch of chemicals and shake them and see if there was life coming out of it. Instead, there are much mote specific, like how can you get something like a cell membrane from nothing but lipids, how can amino-acids come to be naturally, or how could RNA form without a template to start with.

So the field of abiogenesis is much more like building and testing rungs on a ladder and how they could be combined to a ladder, rather than showing the final ladder. It is much more showing how you can get life from non-life, and very much step by step; not necessarily how we got life from non-life.

It’s very hard to deduce how we got life from non-life. The difficulty is that scientists in the field are working backwards, not the original chemistry. It happened 3.5 billion years ago, and very few clues remain.

There are some clues in virology, some clues in genetics, some in geology, and so on, but they are like hints at individual rungs on the ladder, not the full story. For instance, there are some 350 genes that are common to all living things. There is some emerging evidence that proto-viruses may be the first living thing – previously, it was thought that viruses evolved later as simplified cells. There is the Miller-Urey experiment that shows that amino-acids can form in primitive conditions. There are even finds from comets and asteroids which show amino-acids in space, and quite recently even entire proteins (although short ones) in asteroids.

But it is quite another challenge to assemble these clues and put together a complete story of how life started on Earth. There are three main hypotheses, the RNA World, the Protein World, and the Lipid World.

The RNA World hypothesis. RNA is the “little sister” of DNA: one half of the ladder, but made up by basically the same chemistry (it has a different sugar molecule in the backbone – ribose instead of deoxyribose). It can form spontaneously under the right conditions, and also self-replicate.

There is support for this idea in for instance that many viruses consists only of an RNA strain in a protein shell.

One interesting sub-hypothesis to the RNA world hypothesis is that some forms of clay crystals – which themselves self-replicate – could act as catalyst or “scaffolding” for the formation of RNA.

The Protein World hypothesis. We already know from Miller-Urey and the Stardust probe that amino-acids, the building blocks of proteins, can form naturally. Amino-acids can also polymerise into short polypeptides naturally in the right conditions. This is supported by a quite recent find of the protein hemolithin in a meteorite from Algeria. Some proteins can self-replicate too – there are the nasty prions of Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (also known as mad cow disease), which is caused by misfolded proteins that catalyse other proteins to misfold as well.

Again, there is some support for this idea from viruses, specifically their injector mechanisms and shells.

The Protein World and even more so the RNA World provides the backbone for the “replication first” model, which suggests that if you have replication, you can have something similar to evolution but in chemistry: chemistry complexes which work can replicate and evolve, while chemistry complexes which do not work will not replicate.

The Lipid World hypothesis. Lipids, for instance fatty acids, are actually pretty simple molecules, but they have the ability to form bubbles (micelles and liposomes), which also can self-replicate. The great advantage of a lipid bubble is that it separates the world into two parts: inside and outside. Molecules trapped inside a liposome cannot be washed away, so they are always in contact with other molecules.

It also creates an energy potential between inside and outside, which in turn allows for more complex chemistry to happen. This is the basis for the “metabolism first” model, which suggests that for the chemistry of life to happen, you need energy pathways or metabolism first, and for that to happen, there must be an energy potential. The Lipid World provides this energy potential between the inside and the outside.

All of the above. It may be – and is pretty likely – that all of the above happened. The question is rather in which order they combined, or if two or more happened at the same time.

Viruses could indicate that the protein world and the RNA world combined first, which may have been an advantage compared to separate protein and RNA complexes. These were then enveloped in lipid bubbles, which gave the entire complex a survival advantage compared to protein-RNA complexes and separate lipid bubbles in the wild. This is one example of a “replication first” model.

Another variant could be that liposomes and proteins combined first, and that they in turn absorbed RNA to catalyse protein replication. This would be an example of a “metabolism first” model.

Although the field of abiogenesis is yet incomplete, there are several hypothetical pathways and scenarios for the process of simple chemistry becoming complex chemistry becoming chemistry complexes becoming what could resemble “life as we know it”. The rungs of the ladder are mostly there, but we don’t know the details.

“But Krister”, I hear you say, “it really sounds as if scientists assume that abiogenesis happened. Isn’t that unscientific?”

Well, what scientists don’t assume is that magic or gods were involved. That would be unscientific, and also unfalsifiable and untestable due to the alleged nature of the supernatural (i.e. beyond the natural world). Science does assume that there is a natural process behind everything. And that includes the origin of life.

What abiogenesis is about is trying to pry out how it could and can happen naturally from the clues that are left.
 
At one time there was no life on Earth: Then there was.
We are here is evident enough for Abiogenesis, being the only scientific answer.

Quora:
Paul Lucas

, Ph.D in Biochemistry
concluding remarks.....................
So yes, abiogenesis is considered as something that happened, by whatever means. Scientists do not consider that there is a “gap” there. Creationists, of course, refuse to accept this. Creationists share a belief of atheists: if there is a “natural” process, then God is absent.



Steve Baker: Blogger at LetsRunWithIt.com (2013-present)

The word “abiogenesis” means “the making of life from non-living stuff” - and there really are only two choices here:

  1. Life arose from non-living stuff by itself.
  2. A magical creature from who-knows-where magicked it all into existence.
 
I don't know how it happened. Do you?
No, but if you start with simple chemicals and end up with complex chemicals the process must have been of a chemical nature.
I cannot see any other logical interpretation. I am looking at this in very simple direct terms.

It's like saying that 2 + x = 5 is not necessarily a mathematical equation and that "x" may be something other than mathematical. That just doesn't sound right to me......o_O

We don't need to know what value "(+ x)" represents to establish it as a mathematical function.

And if I understand the definition of Abiogenesis, it describes a chemical process, regardless of environment and causal forces.
 
Last edited:
arth's atmosphere was oxidizing before the earliest evidence for life:
. So?
Your link there does not hyperlink to the Nature article it somewhat misrepresents, btw. Also, it claims that all this geological circumstance over billions of years is evidence of God - you might want to find a link less foolish than that.
Earth's atmosphere was oxidizing before the earliest evidence for life:
Not very. The Great Oxidation Event happened more than a billion years later.
And the planet still harbors, to this day, large anoxic regions and volumes, billions of years after the atmosphere became strongly oxidizing.
And many of the living beings in these regions belong to the oldest evolutionary lineages still extant.
The context of my words you quote should have been real clear - I obviously meant homochiral organic molecules, originating on clay surface templates, that had the ability to self-replicate.
No matter how many times you repeat it, the assertion remains irrelevant.
You have demonstrated that you are unable to come up with a plausible guess for the specific evolutionary sequence that produced the early living beings. I accept that demonstration - it's what I would have predicted. I can't do that either.
The muddled history and actual iffy at best status of Cairns-Smith clay hypothesis, and similar efforts:
That's what my link noted, yep. So?
And your assertion '...As were complex and elaborate nonliving chemical structures...' in a prebiotic world is just that, an unevidenced assertion.
There is a very large amount of evidence for the ability of chemical elements to combine in complex molecular structures. There is also the fact that many of these structures replicate with variation, exhibit chirality, and so forth. And finally, there is the fact of selection among different molecular structures in all plausible early environments. That combination of circumstances will - with probability near 1 - produce complex structures over time.

What do imagine would have prevented such structures from forming?
 
Q-reeus said:
Earth's atmosphere was oxidizing before the earliest evidence for life:]
Why are you citing chemical conditions to prove a non-chemical Abiogenesis?

Don't you see?

You can argue conditions and causality all you want, Abiogenesis always occurs as a chemical process!

A dead beetle has the exact same chemical composition as a live beetle. The difference is in the pattern the chemicals are arranged.
 
Last edited:
No matter how many times you repeat it, the assertion remains irrelevant.
You have demonstrated that you are unable to come up with a plausible guess for the specific evolutionary sequence that produced the early living beings. I accept that demonstration - it's what I would have predicted. I can't do that either.
Another example of complete misrepresentation of what I was actually saying. You lost the drift some time back. And it's likewise tedious and frustrating dealing with your other statements here. These exchanges get nowhere useful. They never have. On any topic we engage in. Joust with others more willing to keep the conversation going and going and going.
 
You're not right, just as you're not right with your denial of theory of evolution being fact and theory.
I say there is no theory of abiogenesis. You say I'm wrong. Easily settled. Point me towards the theory. Provide a link, a reference, anything that will show us all the full theory.

Your nonsense about denial is irrelevant and I will ignore it. I walked you through that stuff already.

Because as I know you understand, Abiogenesis is the only scientific assumption/theory/process, that we know of that can support that. ID, or any other supernatural/paranormal explanation is unscientific.
What is unscientific is telling lies about a non-existent theory.

At one time there was no life on Earth: Then there was.
We are here is evident enough for Abiogenesis, being the only scientific answer.
A word isn't an answer. Nor is it a theory.

So yes, abiogenesis is considered as something that happened, by whatever means.
Paul never says he has a theory of abiogenesis, or that anybody else has one. This is irrelevant.

The word “abiogenesis” means “the making of life from non-living stuff” - and there really are only two choices here:
  1. Life arose from non-living stuff by itself.
  2. A magical creature from who-knows-where magicked it all into existence.
False dichotomy. There are thousands of other possibilities that this guy isn't considering. You ought to pick your authorities more carefully that by random google searches.
 
In response to Paddoboy trying to set up his false dichotomy, I asked, "So what's wrong with just admitting that nobody currently knows how life originated?"

Paddoboy repeats his mantra once again as if the strength of an argument is a function of repetition...

Because as I know you understand, Abiogenesis is the only scientific assumption/theory/process, that we know of that can support that.

Can support what? Your conclusion? How does one get from simply observing that life appears to have had an initial origin (somehow, somewhere) to a never-clearly-stated conclusion that you seem to believe is absolutely devastating against the creationists?

If you want to make progress from the place where you are currently stuck you will need to clearly state what your conclusion is and then argue for it as best you can, making clear all your hidden assumptions.

ID, or any other supernatural/paranormal explanation is unscientific.

Why must the true answer to life's origins be "scientific"? What prevents these other sorts of accounts of life's origins from being true?

If you want to slay creationism you will need to answer that one. I don't think that you can without making clear your implicit unstated premise of metaphysical naturalism -- your apparent belief that reality and the scope of natural science are coextensive, such that nothing can possibly exist that science can't at least in principle explain using purely natural principles.

Of course, justifying that metaphysical naturalism premise would seem to be impossible. So it looks like a statement-of-faith not unlike the creationist's belief in divine agencies. Both would seem to be making assertions about the ultimate nature of reality that exceed knowledge and justification.

This constantly repeated assertion of yours about "abiogenesis" being the "only scientific assumption/theory/process" isn't really about theory or process at all, is it? It isn't about the exceedingly technical details of nucleic acid polymerization, the genetic code and its regulation, protein synthesis, cell organization, or the origins of autotrophic chemical and energy metabolism or any of that. You don't seem interested in the strengths and weaknesses of all the gritty details of all of the hypotheses.

"Abiogenesis" seemingly just serves you as an occasion for slipping in your own metaphysical belief about the nature of reality as your initial premise without stating it openly, so that you can triumphantly pull it out again with all of the supposed authority of "science" behind it in order to slay the evil creationists.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top