Changing Adults vs. Changing Children?

[wynn]

You probably would have liked Carnagie's approach to helping students speak with more confidence when facing an audience.

He found that people naturally projected more confidence when talking about something that made them ANGRY.

So he would train them to speak on neutral subjects with the same angry mood and demeanor.

!!

I have been wondering how come some people speak in an angry mood about topics that don't seem to warrant it.
I tend to think that the way a topic is presented, the mood it is presented in, is part of the topic.


What book by Carnegie are you referring to? This is really interesting for me!

 

[wynn]

i kind of agree with signal's opinion. children are more fragile

But that doesn't mean they should be patronized. In fact, studies show that patronizing is counterproductive:

Five Reasons to Stop Saying "Good Job!"

I think the author has many other good articles too, mainly on the topic of education.

 

[wynn]

Maybe you're an emotionally evolved and highly intelligent individual and can see through the charade but to suggest that the majority are the same...
come on, if you really are evolved you'd know that this ego pandering, softly,softly approach actually works like a charm.

Well, like people usually do, I project, so I tend to think that everyone experiences much of communication to be a charade.
I tend to think that there must be some damn good reason why people go along with the charade, it's just that I don't know what that reason is.

 

[visceral_instinct]

Actually, since we're talking like that, I'll tell you something:
I think you project a victim mentality, you have a self-victimizing attitude, which then turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy.
You seem to expect to be told you are wrong, and you get angry and frustrated already in advance - which only makes things worse.

I think you need to be more careful about whom you talk to about what.

There are people who are bound to dismiss you, based on your age, for example, but you seem to like to get involved with precisely such types.

On the other hand, there are people who appreciate well-reasoned arguments. So why not focus on have this type of exchanges with this type of people?

Yes I often expect to be told I'm wrong because it has often happened that people hide behind their age rather than use reason or facts. Instead of addressing a complex issue there are a lot of people who will use the lazy route of saying 'You're X years old, what do you know?' And after hearing that the first X times they wear on me.

I don't go looking for such people. I'm just making the point that there are quite a few of them, and that there is a double standard. If you are younger you are less likely to get taken seriously. Adults tend to be taken seriously by virtue of age alone. The age excuse for some reason isn't really seen as discrimination the way it would be if you said 'You're a woman, what do you know?' or 'You are gay, what do you know?'

I didn't say all adults were dicks who use this brand of 'arguing' I just made the point that the 'You're young, what do you know?' fallacy is pretty common.

 

[visceral_instinct]

vi, there is ALWAYS going to be a reason for you to be a volatile bitch. i think you know that. i know that about myself. :shrug: you just have to decide if that's really what you want to be. and if it is, then that's ok.

and i'm not doubting that you experience this prejudice, but i haven't. quite the opposite actually. i was the first person in my family to graduate from college. i was surrounded by adults that respected and admired my intelligence, and were very interested in what i was learning and how. and do you know, that i actually made it through high school, and could have made it through college without ever using a computer?!?! nowadays they're using them in kindergarten classrooms. it's the young people who are on the cutting edge. it's the young people who are still in school. it's the young people who are adventurous and still eager to learn. i'm generalizing here, but generally, once you get past 30, you're stuck in the 9 to 5, and your brain is turning to mush.

Yay thank you. Someone actually has thoughts as opposed to just parroting the 'You have no life experience, you don't know anything line'

 

[NMSquirrel]

!!

I have been wondering how come some people speak in an angry mood about topics that don't seem to warrant it.
I tend to think that the way a topic is presented, the mood it is presented in, is part of the topic.

like the Star Trek vr Star Wars thread..

i got in there and said star wars beats star trek (said so in the pole) and got jumped..by an almost two page post saying i was wrong and how stupid i was etc..

its just a tv show..not worth getting angry about..

 

[wynn]

Those shows mean the world to some people.

 

[wynn]

Yes I often expect to be told I'm wrong because it has often happened that people hide behind their age rather than use reason or facts. Instead of addressing a complex issue there are a lot of people who will use the lazy route of saying 'You're X years old, what do you know?' And after hearing that the first X times they wear on me.

Perhaps they just don't want to talk about it with you, so they use some handy excuse.
IOW, the age prejudice could be merely a mask for a general unwillingness to communicate.

I don't go looking for such people. I'm just making the point that there are quite a few of them, and that there is a double standard. If you are younger you are less likely to get taken seriously. Adults tend to be taken seriously by virtue of age alone. The age excuse for some reason isn't really seen as discrimination the way it would be if you said 'You're a woman, what do you know?' or 'You are gay, what do you know?'

You're from the UK, right?
Generally, I have gotten the impression that people judge by looks - how rich/poor someone is; if you look (below) average, then they take you less seriously. (Below) average people seem to be dealt with with less courtesy than those looking well off.
Although the socio-economical status prejudice is much more tabooed than the age one.

I didn't say all adults were dicks who use this brand of 'arguing' I just made the point that the 'You're young, what do you know?' fallacy is pretty common.

Yes, and it is probably among the least harmful prejudices.


And seriously - for your own sake, temper your anger and frustration. Your endocrinal system could burn out, your cortisol and adrenaline level completely out of whack. It takes years to recover from such burnout.

 

[NMSquirrel]

Originally Posted by visceral_instinct
Yes I often expect to be told I'm wrong because it has often happened that people hide behind their age rather than use reason or facts. Instead of addressing a complex issue there are a lot of people who will use the lazy route of saying 'You're X years old, what do you know?' And after hearing that the first X times they wear on me.

never underestimate someones ability to not say 'I don't know'

 

[Carcano]

!!
What book by Carnegie are you referring to? This is really interesting for me!

Its called 'How to win friends and influence people'.

By far the biggest selling self help book ever published.

There was even a film parody made:

 

[Carcano]

Instead of addressing a complex issue there are a lot of people who will use the lazy route of saying 'You're X years old, what do you know?'

If youre not old enough to disagree with them...that means youre not old enough to agree either.

Makes a good comeback line!

 

[Carcano]

never underestimate someones ability to not say 'I don't know'

Possibly this is how religion got invented.

The tribal elders couldnt say 'I dont know'...so they just started making stuff up.

 

[NMSquirrel]

Possibly this is how religion got invented.

The tribal elders couldnt say 'I dont know'...so they just started making stuff up.

hmmm...

worthy of thought...

(i tend to separate god from religion)

 

[visceral_instinct]

Perhaps they just don't want to talk about it with you, so they use some handy excuse.
IOW, the age prejudice could be merely a mask for a general unwillingness to communicate.




You're from the UK, right?
Generally, I have gotten the impression that people judge by looks - how rich/poor someone is; if you look (below) average, then they take you less seriously. (Below) average people seem to be dealt with with less courtesy than those looking well off.
Although the socio-economical status prejudice is much more tabooed than the age one.




Yes, and it is probably among the least harmful prejudices.


And seriously - for your own sake, temper your anger and frustration. Your endocrinal system could burn out, your cortisol and adrenaline level completely out of whack. It takes years to recover from such burnout.

Perhaps they just don't want to talk about it with you, so they use some handy excuse.
IOW, the age prejudice could be merely a mask for a general unwillingness to communicate.

That is true. Some people just prefer being an asshole in peace to having a reasoned debate and maybe admitting they were wrong about something or other.

And seriously - for your own sake, temper your anger and frustration. Your endocrinal system could burn out, your cortisol and adrenaline level completely out of whack. It takes years to recover from such burnout.

Never been able to do that at will. Only thing I ever find that calms me down when I'm in a poop slinging fury is some slow music with binaural beats. (Or opiates...no, I don't take those intentionally for anger...) I try and have a session where I listen to some every day for a while for calming...

 

[Carcano]

some slow music with binaural beats.

I have a sense that binaural beats may have been used in the soundtrack to 2001 A Space Odyssey...and a few other sci/fi films.

 

[visceral_instinct]

I haven't seen that, so can't comment.

 

[wynn]

Its called 'How to win friends and influence people'.

By far the biggest selling self help book ever published.

I see. I have heard of this one, but haven't read it myself.

There was even a film parody made:

I'll watch out for that film.



Here's a well-organized site that deals specifically with changing other people:
http://changingminds.org/
Its motto is: "How we change what others think, feel, believe and do."

An example:
http://changingminds.org/explanations/belief/confidence_trap.htm

 

[SilentLi89]

# Call attention to other people's mistakes indirectly.
# Talk about your own mistakes first.
# Ask questions instead of directly giving orders.
# Start with questions which the other person will answer YES
# Let the other person save face.
# Praise every improvement.
# Give the other person a fine reputation to live up to.
# Encourage them by making their faults seem easy to correct.

I believe in the direct approach and leaving no room for misinterpretation. That goes for both children and adults. I don't think every improvement should be praised but praising people who are making an effort to do better, often does have a positive effect I think.

 

[Carcano]

So I just finished reading a wonderful book for the Christmas season...Denis Smith's biography of Mussolini!

Sure enough, I discovered that along with Hitler he too was a devoted student of the french psychologist Gustave LeBon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustave_Le_Bon

Using the human EGO as a tool of crowd manipulation was refined in Mussolini's practise of call and response, as described in the opening post.

By asking the audience questions that could only be answered YES!!! one creates a WAVE OF AFFIRMATION that takes on its own momentum to affirm more and more controversial imperatives.

Mussolini often said that the Italian people werent interested in FACTS. They were traditionally a theatrical culture, and you had to give them something to dream on...by making them feel poised on the threashold of some vague monumental event, from which they would emerge as the heros of Europe!

 

[andi_3k]

Honestly? If someone tried to change my "attitude", I'd shut down on them completely. As an adult I have the right to hold my own opinions and attitudes about things without someone trying to change my mind to suit them.
changing your child's attitude is your prerogative another adults? not so much. I think the Carnegie method is patronizing not only in execution but in the idea that adults should be correcting other adults.