Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Greatest I am

Greatest I am

Valued Senior Member
Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?


Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.

Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin or do evil. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.

Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

These links speak to theistic evolution.

Care to compete for dominance of your notions of good and evil over mine and do evil by competing with me?

If you win then you will do evil.
If I win then I will do evil.
If you wish to cooperate and agree with me then you are doing good.

http://www.americamagazine.org/content/article.cfm?article_id=1205

http://www.youtube.com/user/ProfMTH#g/c/6F8036F680C1DBEB

If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.

If the above is not convincing enough for you then show me where in this baby evil lives or is a part of it’s nature and instincts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA

Regards
DL
 
Greatest I am said:
Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?
Click to expand...

Greatest I am said:
Free will is quite easy to prove. I have a test you can take if you like.
Click to expand...

So which is it? Does free will exist, or are you just a troll who says whatever you think gains you an advantage in the moment?
 
Syne said:
So which is it? Does free will exist, or are you just a troll who says whatever you think gains you an advantage in the moment?
Click to expand...

Both statements are sound.

You have free will but must also do some evil through competing or you will die.

Certainly I always say what is advantageous to me.

Do you say things that are not advcantageous to you?

Regards
DL
 
All competition being evil is, so far, completely unsupported by you. It is naive and a false dilemma.
 
Good and Evil = made by religion
Good and Evil = Morality and Immorality

using transitive property of equality,
Morality and Immorality = made by religion

Now you can see that this is just plain wrong.

Conclusion: Religion is bullshit
 
Syne said:
All competition being evil is, so far, completely unsupported by you. It is naive and a false dilemma.
Click to expand...

Thanks for supporting your statement. Not.

Evil in cases of competition is from the loser's POV of the competition. From evolution's and mankind's view, it is all good as the species does not go extinct.

Do your best to follow the logic trail.

In the real world, we all compete for resources.
To survive, you must work and finding that work involves competing for it.

The last time you competed for a job let's say. You may have won but created a loser of the one who did not get the work. He would see evil in this because if he has a long string of loses and cannot find someone to beat out for a job, he will eventually die.

You could have done the empathic or kind generous thing and let him win, but then you would be the loser and if you continued to do this you would be the one to eventually die.

You have to compete and win and create a loser and thus do evil from his POV or you will die. You like all who want to survive must do evil in this sense.

This seems to make it impossible for you and all of us to live our lives without stepping on another toes and doing evil.

If not then show how competition is not evil as you claim.

Regards
DL
 
GASHOLE said:
Good and Evil = made by religion
Good and Evil = Morality and Immorality

using transitive property of equality,
Morality and Immorality = made by religion

Now you can see that this is just plain wrong.

Conclusion: Religion is bullshit
Click to expand...

No argument.

Any thoughts on the O P?

Regards
DL
 
DL, competition can be good depending on various factors like mental attitude and who is on the receiving end of the competition. One might say that some instances of competition are cooperation. It much depends on things like if the intent is to help everyone in general to be better off, rather than intending that one's ingroup will do better than another group.

Also, competition can involve one's past achievements, which is also a good form of it. So we can compete with ourselves.

Self-defense can also be viewed as being competion, and true self-defense is good.

From an ethical perspective, one might say we can only compete with or against other people, which we seem to agree on. However, I might say, for the sake of verbal simplicity, that -we all should compete with each other against cancer-.

best wishes
 
elte said:
"DL, competition can be good depending on various factors like mental attitude and who is on the receiving end of the competition."

How would the loser think it good?

To the participants of the competition, the winner will think it good and the loser will think it evil but to evolution and mankind, in terms of survival, it is all good.

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" One might say that some instances of competition are cooperation."

If so we would call it cooperation.
I would need an example where we could see such a thing though.

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" It much depends on things like if the intent is to help everyone in general to be better off, rather than intending that one's ingroup will do better than another group."

Too general to understand again my friend. Give an example please.

---------------------------

"Also, competition can involve one's past achievements, which is also a good form of it. So we can compete with ourselves."

I can see your point here as in competing against your own time in a race, but here again, I would say that that is cooperation as the runner is trying to make all of his body and mind function at it's best by cooperating with each other to a higher degree. Semantics perhaps.

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"Self-defense can also be viewed as being competion, and true self-defense is good."

Absolutely and like all competitions, the winner will feel good while the loser, unless dead, will see it as evil.

---------------------------------

"From an ethical perspective, one might say we can only compete with or against other people, which we seem to agree on."

In terms of true or named evil yes but remember that we also compete with the environment for resources.
Nature cannot name it as evil but man can.
I mention this only because of the present condition of our ecology.

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" However, I might say, for the sake of verbal simplicity, that -we all should compete with each other against cancer-."

For sure.

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best wishes
Click to expand...

Thanks for this.

Regards
DL
 
An addiction is like "evil", an you must always struggle to do what's right "good". There for there is good an evil. An it permeates our lives. Some loose the struggle. Others continue to fight. An resist certain urges. An IMO evil an wrong are easier, than doing good, an right things in life.
 
R1D2 said:
An addiction is like "evil", an you must always struggle to do what's right "good". There for there is good an evil. An it permeates our lives. Some loose the struggle. Others continue to fight. An resist certain urges. An IMO evil an wrong are easier, than doing good, an right things in life.
Click to expand...

I do not agree. If happiness is what we seek, then doing good or cooperating is more rewarding to that end.
If un-happiness is the goal, then evil is the way to go.
Trust me. I have tried both methods to gain happiness and evil does not work well. I had few choices at the time.

As that baby clip shows, we have a default position of doing good through coopperation when we can as it is more advantageous to survival than competition or doing evil.

We must all do evil and you and I will again ---- but let`s try to keep the evil to a minimum.

Regards
DL
 
Yes, you need not do evil my friend. You may. You may be an evil man, but I don't think so. I like you GIM. Doing evil doesn't feel good for me, like lying. It hurts.
 
Greatest I am said:
I do not agree. If happiness is what we seek, then doing good or cooperating is more rewarding to that end.
If un-happiness is the goal, then evil is the way to go.
Trust me. I have tried both methods to gain happiness and evil does not work well. I had few choices at the time.

As that baby clip shows, we have a default position of doing good through coopperation when we can as it is more advantageous to survival than competition or doing evil.

We must all do evil and you and I will again ---- but let`s try to keep the evil to a minimum.

Regards
DL
Click to expand...

My theory is the man Satan is happy, and loving, and careful when he is himself, temptation. If he try's to blend in he becomes stale, just like me.

Emotions like love, and pacifism are for us all, only for Satan in Hell. Overcome temptation, and the other hellish emotions we poses.
 
kx000 said:
Yes, you need not do evil my friend. You may. You may be an evil man, but I don't think so. I like you GIM. Doing evil doesn't feel good for me, like lying. It hurts.
Click to expand...

Then you must hurt after writing this post.

You will do evil again because you must compete at some point or die.

If you recall when you sinned in the past, you will know that it felt good otherwise it would mean that you do things that hurt you by full intent. That is called insanity.

Regards
DL
 
Greatest I am said:
Thanks for supporting your statement. Not.

Evil in cases of competition is from the loser's POV of the competition. From evolution's and mankind's view, it is all good as the species does not go extinct.

Do your best to follow the logic trail.

In the real world, we all compete for resources.
To survive, you must work and finding that work involves competing for it.

The last time you competed for a job let's say. You may have won but created a loser of the one who did not get the work. He would see evil in this because if he has a long string of loses and cannot find someone to beat out for a job, he will eventually die.

You could have done the empathic or kind generous thing and let him win, but then you would be the loser and if you continued to do this you would be the one to eventually die.

You have to compete and win and create a loser and thus do evil from his POV or you will die. You like all who want to survive must do evil in this sense.

This seems to make it impossible for you and all of us to live our lives without stepping on another toes and doing evil.

If not then show how competition is not evil as you claim.
Click to expand...

First, why should I proffer any support when commenting on your lack of argument and given your history of completely dismissing any counterargument with vacuous copied posts? Second, all of your thinly veiled ad hominems do nothing to make your point.

As per just personal development (no need to bring evolution into it at all), competition is necessary. The "loser" in your scenario would never become anything else without being challenged through competition. The job seeker would never become a better candidate without facing the opportunity to learn from failure. Without such opportunities, no one develops personal survival skills. You are making the typical argument of someone who blames "bad luck" for the shortcomings of their own responsibility. Jobs are not as scarce as people make it seem. Well, that is if you are not afraid of real work, not "too good" for some jobs, and have not amassed more debt than you can reasonably handle. Developing survival skills includes learning when one strategy is failing and adopting a new one. Trial and error. Or more generally, just the ability to learn.

Only the extremely naive would attempt to make such blanket proclamations about any opportunity for learning being evil.
 
Greatest I am said:
Thanks for supporting your statement. Not.

Evil in cases of competition is from the loser's POV of the competition. From evolution's and mankind's view, it is all good as the species does not go extinct.

Do your best to follow the logic trail.

In the real world, we all compete for resources.
To survive, you must work and finding that work involves competing for it.

The last time you competed for a job let's say. You may have won but created a loser of the one who did not get the work. He would see evil in this because if he has a long string of loses and cannot find someone to beat out for a job, he will eventually die.

You could have done the empathic or kind generous thing and let him win, but then you would be the loser and if you continued to do this you would be the one to eventually die.

You have to compete and win and create a loser and thus do evil from his POV or you will die. You like all who want to survive must do evil in this sense.

This seems to make it impossible for you and all of us to live our lives without stepping on another toes and doing evil.

If not then show how competition is not evil as you claim.
Click to expand...

In material terms, the survival of one being depends on the partial or complete destruction of others.
This is how in material terms, there are eventually no winners.

The real question is whether one believes that the material is all there is / all that matters ...
 
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