it is said that the first people on earth were adam and eve,right? okay then eve gave birth to two son's right? they were called kane and able right? okay then eve went into the land of nod to find another bed partener,which means she selpt with one of her own son's as there were only four people on earth, adam/eve/kane and able.
can you answer
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charles cure
Guest
ask the visitor, i think he said in some other thread she ended up banging a dragon or serpent. turns out that because of it we are all half human snakes and sons of perdition or something. obviously none of it ever really happened.
Why is it, when you point out the bible says we all came from Adam and Eve christians get very outraged when we point out that makes humans all extremely inbred?
I have heard that there were other women, but they weren't talked about, since only the men mattered. Eve was mentioned only to place the blame on all women for her eating of the fruit.
usp8riot
Registered Senior Member
lol. Since I have retired from the forum for a few days, I can look at it a little more lighthearted. I don't know, myself. Maybe that happened. Or maybe God made their offspring mates, I don't think the bible says.
But if I look at it the way I think happened, Adam and Eve are just metaphors for the the evolution of man into homo sapiens. So maybe there were a few more Adam and Eves. I'd like to hear an experienced christian say also.
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of COURSE Adam and Eve are metaphors. the biblical tale is patriarchal propaganda!usp8riot said:
EVE is representing the Goddess, and woman and her religious rituals which the patriarchy/writers of this patrirchal mythic propaganda want to defame and destroy
ADAm representing mankind is a victim of 'her'...'seduced' 'led astray' from the authoritarain 'God'
The Tree/Fruit/Serpent/Garden all reprsnt the psychedelic sacrament and its ecstasy
and the 'original sin' as defined by the patriarchs is their eating of the'Fruit'
see in the tale when authoritaran voice warns that tey mustn't eat of te fruit from the 'Tree of Life' 'less they become gods'. tis means that age old Indigenus sacramental communal rites are being busted by this male elite...because it is the 'word of God' such activity becomes deemed 'original sin'....!they then are to become misreable slaves workin fo my maaaan
so whats changed??
Adam and Eve had plenty of children, and I think the Bible mentions several others. The fun starts when you look at the myths that didn't make it to the KJV Bible, where you indeed had another woman:
"The passage in Genesis 1:27 — "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them" (before describing a mate being made of Adam's rib and being called Eve in Genesis 2:22) is sometimes believed to be an indication that Adam had a wife before Eve.
A medieval reference to Lilith as the first wife of Adam is the anonymous The Alphabet of Ben-Sira, written sometime between the 8th and 11th centuries. Lilith is described as refusing to assume a subservient role to Adam during sexual intercourse and so deserting him ("She said, 'I will not lie below,' and he said, 'I will not lie beneath you, but only on top. For you are fit only to be in the bottom position, while I am to be the superior one.'"). Lilith promptly uttered the name of God, took to the air, and left the Garden, settling on the Red Sea coast. As a side note, this places Lilith in a unique position, for she left the Garden of her own accord and before the Fall of Man, and so is untouched by the Tree of Knowledge. However, according to legend, she also knows the "true name of God".
Lilith then went on to mate with Asmodai and various other demons she found beside the Red Sea, creating countless lilin. Adam urged God to bring Lilith back, so three angels were dispatched after her. When the angels, Senoy, Sansenoy, and Semangelof, made threats to kill one hundred of Lilith's demonic children for each day she stayed away, she countered that she would prey eternally upon the descendants of Adam and Eve, who could be saved only by invoking the names of the three angels. She did not return to Adam."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith
"The passage in Genesis 1:27 — "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them" (before describing a mate being made of Adam's rib and being called Eve in Genesis 2:22) is sometimes believed to be an indication that Adam had a wife before Eve.
A medieval reference to Lilith as the first wife of Adam is the anonymous The Alphabet of Ben-Sira, written sometime between the 8th and 11th centuries. Lilith is described as refusing to assume a subservient role to Adam during sexual intercourse and so deserting him ("She said, 'I will not lie below,' and he said, 'I will not lie beneath you, but only on top. For you are fit only to be in the bottom position, while I am to be the superior one.'"). Lilith promptly uttered the name of God, took to the air, and left the Garden, settling on the Red Sea coast. As a side note, this places Lilith in a unique position, for she left the Garden of her own accord and before the Fall of Man, and so is untouched by the Tree of Knowledge. However, according to legend, she also knows the "true name of God".
Lilith then went on to mate with Asmodai and various other demons she found beside the Red Sea, creating countless lilin. Adam urged God to bring Lilith back, so three angels were dispatched after her. When the angels, Senoy, Sansenoy, and Semangelof, made threats to kill one hundred of Lilith's demonic children for each day she stayed away, she countered that she would prey eternally upon the descendants of Adam and Eve, who could be saved only by invoking the names of the three angels. She did not return to Adam."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith
Lerxst said:
Thats pretty good....real entertaining stuff.
To be clear about one thing,... the creature that I said Eve was seduced by was only "called" a serpent....thats the name given by Adam to the closest humaniod species next to man.
It walked upright talked and was able to mix with humans, being the closest species.
God changed every form afterwards....after it pregnated Eve, it was changed into a snakelike creature.
But the harm was done...Cain was born, though Eve said "I've gotten a man from the Lord", all life has to follow a law of reproduction, and those laws were set forth by the Lord.
Cain was of his father the wicked one.....that wasn't Adam.
Adam was made in the image of God, as a son of god.
Cain then passed the original traits of the serpent on to his offspring.
that made two races, the sons of god..(Adams linage), and the sons of men..(Cains linage.....passing on the seed of the serpent)
I never said it was a snake or dragon....it was a humaniod....the missing link.
They were giants...10-12' tall, not human, a seperate species used by unclean spirits as hosts.
Though long gone many of thier traits still exist in mankind today.
God has been in control all along and has just the right mixture in man to serve His purpose.
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charles cure
Guest
TheVisitor said:
you sound like someone on acid. there were no giants or humanoid serpents, lets face it. and i believe at one point you definitely did call some of us - "half-human snakes".
I'm not endorsing anything, but...
I would see no problem with an incestuous relationship between the first of a species. Any other alternative means extinction. It would have to be either mother-son, father-daughter or brother-sister, no other alternatives. Imagine that you and someone of the opposite sex are the only ones left alive (and assuming you want a world repopulated with humans), I can't believe that even the most closed-minded person would not see the inevitability and profit of incest.
Max
I would see no problem with an incestuous relationship between the first of a species. Any other alternative means extinction. It would have to be either mother-son, father-daughter or brother-sister, no other alternatives. Imagine that you and someone of the opposite sex are the only ones left alive (and assuming you want a world repopulated with humans), I can't believe that even the most closed-minded person would not see the inevitability and profit of incest.
Max
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charles cure
Guest
MadMaxReborn said:
thats a really unrealistic scenario and im sure that it isnt what happened in the first place. if you repopulated the world as a result of incestuous relationships the population wouldnt last too long because there wouldnt be extremely limited genetic diversity and a particular disease could wipe everyone out.
(to start, I would point out that I no longer actually believe the Bible is "true", but rather it's an interesting journal of an ancient people: has some useful points, has some silly points, has a bunch of noone-really-cares-anymore points ...)
(but, I USED to be one of those rampant "born-again-ers", back when my mind was still like that of a child .. <heh>)
There are 2 possible "excuses"- pardon, explanations for where Able got his bride that are often tossed about by True Believers.
The first is that Able married a sister that Adam & Even concieved after the Fall. Since it was Some Time Later (caps intentional), these additional offspring were not enumerated specifically.
As for the genetic diversity, if you postulate that Adam & Eve were created (*boom* using God's "magic voice") from essentially nothing, you can also postulate that their genes were perfect and flawless: i.e. without genetic defects you'd expect. This would allow the children of Adam and Eve to intermarry without the usual worry about defective children. It is also stated that the genetic defects we see today, is as result of sin, which "poisons" our blood lines. It is one explination for the many statements in the Bible that say "the sins will last for 7 generations" implying that God's punishment for whatever infraction, was a genetic one.
(I know, this is a silly and simplistic excuse, and ignorant of basic biology. I'm only repeating what I had been told, when I asked these Hard Questions as a child.)
...
The 2nd possible explanation of the source of Able's wife, is that if you read Genisis carefully, there seems to be 2 versions of Creation in there. I won't bore you with specifics (you can read the 1st couple of chapters online easily enough), but the first part with the 7-day stuff is closely followed with a 2nd Creation Story, wherein God says roughly 'Let Us make Men and Women. Let Us make Them in Our Image.' Note here that the original text (as old as can be found, with current methods) used plural words for "man" and "woman", implying that for this Creation Event, there were more than just Adam and Eve coming into being.
To reconcile these two stories, Literalists often cite the 2nd story as an additional Creation Event, and the Men and Women thus created were NOT direct decendants of Adam and Eve (who eventually become the Ancestors of Jesus, the Whole Point according to some). These "extra" Men and Women become the ancestors of everyone ELSE in the world, who is not to become an Israelite.
Thus, Able's wife came from a gentile, as decended from these others.
...
It's Amazing what you can do with a little Creative Interpretation, is it not? (and yet these folk who "taught" me these tales claimed to have Literal Intrepretation).
(but, I USED to be one of those rampant "born-again-ers", back when my mind was still like that of a child .. <heh>)
There are 2 possible "excuses"- pardon, explanations for where Able got his bride that are often tossed about by True Believers.
The first is that Able married a sister that Adam & Even concieved after the Fall. Since it was Some Time Later (caps intentional), these additional offspring were not enumerated specifically.
As for the genetic diversity, if you postulate that Adam & Eve were created (*boom* using God's "magic voice") from essentially nothing, you can also postulate that their genes were perfect and flawless: i.e. without genetic defects you'd expect. This would allow the children of Adam and Eve to intermarry without the usual worry about defective children. It is also stated that the genetic defects we see today, is as result of sin, which "poisons" our blood lines. It is one explination for the many statements in the Bible that say "the sins will last for 7 generations" implying that God's punishment for whatever infraction, was a genetic one.
(I know, this is a silly and simplistic excuse, and ignorant of basic biology. I'm only repeating what I had been told, when I asked these Hard Questions as a child.)
...
The 2nd possible explanation of the source of Able's wife, is that if you read Genisis carefully, there seems to be 2 versions of Creation in there. I won't bore you with specifics (you can read the 1st couple of chapters online easily enough), but the first part with the 7-day stuff is closely followed with a 2nd Creation Story, wherein God says roughly 'Let Us make Men and Women. Let Us make Them in Our Image.' Note here that the original text (as old as can be found, with current methods) used plural words for "man" and "woman", implying that for this Creation Event, there were more than just Adam and Eve coming into being.
To reconcile these two stories, Literalists often cite the 2nd story as an additional Creation Event, and the Men and Women thus created were NOT direct decendants of Adam and Eve (who eventually become the Ancestors of Jesus, the Whole Point according to some). These "extra" Men and Women become the ancestors of everyone ELSE in the world, who is not to become an Israelite.
Thus, Able's wife came from a gentile, as decended from these others.
...
It's Amazing what you can do with a little Creative Interpretation, is it not? (and yet these folk who "taught" me these tales claimed to have Literal Intrepretation).
charles cure said:
Interesting...I'm unable to see any other way that only two of a species could repopulate the Earth.
My comment was not addressed to the "real possibility" of the continued existence of human kind from the incestuous relationship of the only two in a species; but WAS addressed to the emotional reaction that people are supposed to have with regard to the possibility that Adam and Eve and their immediate offspring had incestuous relations in order to produce you and me. My simplified answer was: "Do what you have to do."
And (unfortunately) to reiterate, the psychology of the mind at the time would be that the only way to repopulate the Earth with only two of a species will inevitably lead to incestuous relations. If you can think of another way, it would have to be beyond modern science and common sense, and therefore must have some supernatural ramifications.
Max
The Bible does not say that Adam and Eve were the only "beings" on earth at that time. It states quite the opposite actually. It just says that they were created (their flesh, that is). It doesn't say that they were the first to be created, or the last. Words used like "replenish" and "repopulate" signify that they were definitely not the first, but were to replace what was depleted or diminished. That doesn't mean the population had been depleted entirely. It wasn't depleted entirely with the flood. Who knows how many times God has almost wiped the slate clean, and started over? Logic states that Genesis is not the beginning, just as Revelation is not the end. I mean, we're talking eternity here...infinity...a dimension without time. So there is no beginning and no end...that's just kind of an illusion that we buy into due to the constraints of our flesh and being in this physical world.
In the context of orthodoxy, I think Bob is right, that would be their explanation.
In terms of the science of evolution, I think the change to what we would consider a full human happens gradually, with no first couple required. Dawkins talks about a mitochondrial Eve, I'm not sure I understand it completely.
In terms of the science of evolution, I think the change to what we would consider a full human happens gradually, with no first couple required. Dawkins talks about a mitochondrial Eve, I'm not sure I understand it completely.