Can someone help?

I totally understood the math but did not understand his objective since it achieved nothing.
So, you didn't understand it then. Read his opening sentence again. Repeat until you understand what it means.

You are wrong about free and bound variables and this indicates your lack of ability of logic.
I didn't say anything about them.
You said there are logical inconsistencies in post #4, but you haven't yet mentioned what you think they are. Are you going to?

I don't care what conflicts you've had with rpenner elsewhere, or how inflated your opinion of your teaching abilities is. Let's stay on task with math only and without all of your emotion.

Can you do this?
 
So, you didn't understand it then. Read his opening sentence again. Repeat until you understand what it means.


I didn't say anything about them.
You said there are logical inconsistencies in post #4, but you haven't yet mentioned what you think they are. Are you going to?

I don't care what conflicts you've had with rpenner elsewhere, or how inflated your opinion of your teaching abilities is. Let's stay on task with math only and without all of your emotion.

Can you do this?

Say whatever you want.

Show me the proof where the OP is false. You already said it is true. Shall I repost?


See I know you are so very smart.

So, you can do this and you will.
 
Point taken.

Let's you and I review these so called logical inconsistencies.

Ok. Let's start with the last sentence in your ,pdf file. It doesn't follow from what goes before? Agree?

But, let's stay on task with math only and without all of your emotion.

What emotion?
 
Where is AN's math? I did not see it.

Does it mean what is simultaneous to O will also be simultaneous to O'? It sounds like it. How does that work with R of S? Do you know?
Here is the last time I pointed out you've been given the mathematics many times by myself (and others), all of which you've failed to retort and just as this thread you say things like "I accept that" or "I understand that" and then go on to completely contradict it, demonstrating you don't.

I want to understand how well you know math and logic.
This is your typical attitude, you try to pretend you have some amazing grasp of maths and logic and you're 'helping' other people with things they've never done. Special relativity is actually mathematically very simple once you know vector calculus and linear algebra, both of which are required for any decent physicist. You're not discussing difficult topics, you're discussing things 1st years get given for homework and despite you wanting to come across as well educated in it, you're very very bad at it. I honestly don't think you could pass the 1st year special relativity course I've taught in times gone by.

Differently, when you write an equation based x' and t' that makes them appear as free variabes and they are in fact bound based on another domain set, you are committing a logical fallacy in proof theory.
Please stop pretending you're competent at logic and mathematical proofs, you can't even use the words properly.

So, your equation of $$ x'^2+y^2+z^2 = r^2 $$ based on points selected in the stationary frame is a logical fallacy.
Thanks for demonstrating you didn't understand Rpenner's post, even though you said otherwise (just like you never understood my posts on fibre bundles but you lie and say you did). He used differences in space-time location, not an absolute space-time location. Again, this is the sort of thing covered in the simplest of SR courses as its basically the concept of a space-time interval without the student needing to know about line elements.

Since you are mathematical, you will reveal it. If you fail to, you are committing mathematical fraud.
Just as you fail to retort anything anyone says which involves mathematics? I just linked to all the mathematical posts of mine which you failed to reply to or lied about understanding. The 'fraud' here is your unwillingness to accept you might not grasp basic relativity as well as you believe, you're willingness to flat out lie (such as when you demand mathematics you've been provided with just posts before) and your willingness to pretend you know things you do not. Your unwillingness to accept there's other Higgs mechanism effects other than the Higgs boson and even after I provided you with links to papers on it you proclaimed I was wrong.

And, you attempt to measure me according to your standards. That would assert you claim superiority.
No, having a basic standard for informed discussion and honesty isn't about 'superiority'. Science got where it has because is asks people to justify their claims, to present their work for review by others and to constantly test models as new understanding and technology allows. We're asking you to have a minimal level of honesty, open mindedness and willingness to put in a bit of effort to learn. This is nothing I wouldn't expect from people like Rpenner, Ben, Pete and myself. Deliberate wilful ignorance is one of the things which immediately riles me and you have it in spades. If you can't meet basic standards for honest informed discussion then why are you on these forums? Why are you even pretending you're doing something honest and scientific?

Yes, you fail to meet the standards expected of scientists and mathematicians. That isn't our fault for having standards, its your fault for being intellectually dishonest and wilfully ignorant.

Otherwise, stop the opinions and lets function purely with logic and proof.
You have nothing but opinion. Rpenner has provided all that needs to be said. I've previously walked you through the mathematics of Lorentz transformations in many different ways. You haven't tried to understand them, from months ago, why should we expect you'll be less dishonest now?

Do you think Lorentz transforms don't map an expanding photon sphere to an expanding photon sphere? If you don't then there's no point in us engaging you in discussion on a new topic when you've not managed to grasp one from 6 months ago.

You simply prove my assertions are fale and everyone will laugh at me.
Like the other 50 times we've done it.

So, you and your folk simply bring up a case where the OP is false and you are home free.
You didn't accept all the other times we provided mathematics and logic you were wrong. You simply stuck to your opinion.

If you cannot or close the thread, folks watching will know it is correct.
This your imaginary audience who are even worse at basic mathematics than you? Because that's the only people you can possibly hope to sucker as anyone who didn't sleep through high school calculus will see how you're incorrect. There's nothing difficult here, just multiplying matrices.

Yes, I totally understood #4.
Your lies are very transparent.

It contained logical inconsistencies that I am still waiting for him to clear up.
No, it contains things you don't understand. What Rpenner said is well known basic stuff in special relativity. You constantly make it clear that for all your claims about being familiar with these topics you haven't read a single lecture course or textbook on the subject because you're unfamiliar with basic concepts or notation. You can't use the word 'proof' properly, indicating you haven't read anything which actually does proper proofs. You are unfamiliar with $$\Delta x$$ notation, which is standard in any SR material. You think the SM involves gravitons and the Higgs involves gravitatonal mass. All of these demonstrate you're not arguing from a position of knowledge but one of ignorance.

This thread isn't going to go anywhere, Jack is incapable of a discussion on something as simple as mathematics of SR. If he can't do anything other than say "Lets do maths and logic, not opinions" and then refuse to do any mathematics (even when others have) then he's failing to meet his own criteria. This is just like last time, he demands mathematical posts, people provide and then he fails to respond or discuss. He's got no interest in being honest, the thread should be locked.
 
Say whatever you want.

Show me the proof where the OP is false. You already said it is true.
:bugeye:
Since I already said the equation is correct, why are you asking for proof it is false?

Now, you claim that rpenner's post (#4) contains logical inconsistencies and has no point, even though it agree with the equation in your OP, and it's point was was clearly explained in the first sentence. Why?
 
Here is the last time I pointed out you've been given the mathematics many times by myself (and others), all of which you've failed to retort and just as this thread you say things like "I accept that" or "I understand that" and then go on to completely contradict it, demonstrating you don't.

This is your typical attitude, you try to pretend you have some amazing grasp of maths and logic and you're 'helping' other people with things they've never done. Special relativity is actually mathematically very simple once you know vector calculus and linear algebra, both of which are required for any decent physicist. You're not discussing difficult topics, you're discussing things 1st years get given for homework and despite you wanting to come across as well educated in it, you're very very bad at it. I honestly don't think you could pass the 1st year special relativity course I've taught in times gone by.

Please stop pretending you're competent at logic and mathematical proofs, you can't even use the words properly.

Thanks for demonstrating you didn't understand Rpenner's post, even though you said otherwise (just like you never understood my posts on fibre bundles but you lie and say you did). He used differences in space-time location, not an absolute space-time location. Again, this is the sort of thing covered in the simplest of SR courses as its basically the concept of a space-time interval without the student needing to know about line elements.

Just as you fail to retort anything anyone says which involves mathematics? I just linked to all the mathematical posts of mine which you failed to reply to or lied about understanding. The 'fraud' here is your unwillingness to accept you might not grasp basic relativity as well as you believe, you're willingness to flat out lie (such as when you demand mathematics you've been provided with just posts before) and your willingness to pretend you know things you do not. Your unwillingness to accept there's other Higgs mechanism effects other than the Higgs boson and even after I provided you with links to papers on it you proclaimed I was wrong.

No, having a basic standard for informed discussion and honesty isn't about 'superiority'. Science got where it has because is asks people to justify their claims, to present their work for review by others and to constantly test models as new understanding and technology allows. We're asking you to have a minimal level of honesty, open mindedness and willingness to put in a bit of effort to learn. This is nothing I wouldn't expect from people like Rpenner, Ben, Pete and myself. Deliberate wilful ignorance is one of the things which immediately riles me and you have it in spades. If you can't meet basic standards for honest informed discussion then why are you on these forums? Why are you even pretending you're doing something honest and scientific?

Yes, you fail to meet the standards expected of scientists and mathematicians. That isn't our fault for having standards, its your fault for being intellectually dishonest and wilfully ignorant.

You have nothing but opinion. Rpenner has provided all that needs to be said. I've previously walked you through the mathematics of Lorentz transformations in many different ways. You haven't tried to understand them, from months ago, why should we expect you'll be less dishonest now?

Do you think Lorentz transforms don't map an expanding photon sphere to an expanding photon sphere? If you don't then there's no point in us engaging you in discussion on a new topic when you've not managed to grasp one from 6 months ago.

Like the other 50 times we've done it.

You didn't accept all the other times we provided mathematics and logic you were wrong. You simply stuck to your opinion.

This your imaginary audience who are even worse at basic mathematics than you? Because that's the only people you can possibly hope to sucker as anyone who didn't sleep through high school calculus will see how you're incorrect. There's nothing difficult here, just multiplying matrices.

Your lies are very transparent.

No, it contains things you don't understand. What Rpenner said is well known basic stuff in special relativity. You constantly make it clear that for all your claims about being familiar with these topics you haven't read a single lecture course or textbook on the subject because you're unfamiliar with basic concepts or notation. You can't use the word 'proof' properly, indicating you haven't read anything which actually does proper proofs. You are unfamiliar with $$\Delta x$$ notation, which is standard in any SR material. You think the SM involves gravitons and the Higgs involves gravitatonal mass. All of these demonstrate you're not arguing from a position of knowledge but one of ignorance.

This thread isn't going to go anywhere, Jack is incapable of a discussion on something as simple as mathematics of SR. If he can't do anything other than say "Lets do maths and logic, not opinions" and then refuse to do any mathematics (even when others have) then he's failing to meet his own criteria. This is just like last time, he demands mathematical posts, people provide and then he fails to respond or discuss. He's got no interest in being honest, the thread should be locked.

AN, the pdf file is a math proof.

You can either refute it with math or accept it.

You have indicated that you are superior at math.

So, why not simply try to refute the clear proof and we will see how that works out.
 
:bugeye:
Since I already said the equation is correct, why are you asking for proof it is false?

Now, you claim that rpenner's post (#4) contains logical inconsistencies and has no point, even though it agree with the equation in your OP, and it's point was was clearly explained in the first sentence. Why?

Well, his set of equations did not proceed with the mathematical logic of SR.

SR does not allow a logical equivalence between frames based on the relativity of simultaneity.

So, you must select from points from one frame and apply LT and end up with points in the moving frame.

However, this process requires the points in the "other" frame having a bound set from the chosen frame.

So, you cannot blindly equate frames since it is a one way street. This is SR.

Otherwise, you frame mix.

I am simply being careful to disclose the domain sets when passing from one frame to the other using LT since that is a fundamental requirement of proof theory.
 
Well, his set of equations did not proceed with the mathematical logic of SR.
Wrong.
SR does not allow a logical equivalence between frames based on the relativity of simultaneity.
Wrong
So, you must select from points from one frame and apply LT and end up with points in the moving frame.
Correct, except you should replace "must" with "can". Transforming coordinates (like I do) is a fairly primitive method of applying SR. I'm led to believe that there are much more powerful tools. Ask AlphaNumeric about this.

However, this process requires the points in the "other" frame having a bound set from the chosen frame.
And it works in reverse.

So, you cannot blindly equate frames
Right
...since it is a one way street.
Wrong.

Otherwise, you frame mix.
Frame mixing is trying to be at both ends of the street at once.

I am simply being careful to disclose the domain sets when passing from one frame to the other using LT since that is a fundamental requirement of proof theory.
Bullshit. You're departing down an irrelevant sidetrack.

So, back to topic:
What "logical inconsistencies" do you think you found in post #4?
And, since I already said the equation in your OP is correct, why do you ask for proof it is false?
 
AN, the pdf file is a math proof.
Why haven't you submitted it to a journal then? If you've got it all typed up then you only need to email them the file. Assuming of course you believe what you claim, that your work is 'proof'. The fact you avoid putting your work in front of people whose physics ability you can't dismiss or ignore speaks volumes.

You can either refute it with math or accept it.
Once again you misuse the word 'proof'. If a 'proof' can be refuted then it was never a proof in the first place. You should be saying "I have what I believe to be a proof in the pdf, can you refute it?". How many times do you need to be told this?

You have indicated that you are superior at math.
Thanks, nice of you to finally admit it.

Oh wait, that was your poor communication skills at work, wasn't it? You mean to say that I believe I'm superior at mathematics than you. Yes, I am. I've run circles around you when it comes to vector calculus, special relativity and areas of mathematics like fibre bundles. I can even use the word 'proof' properly.

So, why not simply try to refute the clear proof and we will see how that works out.
Please don't piss on my shoes and tell me its raining. We both know full well that whatever anyone says to you, no matter how mathematically detailed, you'll ignore everything. I have explained to you how a Lorentz transform maps an expanding light sphere to an expanding light sphere several ways, many times, using pictures, words and equations. Not only have you failed to grasp what I (or anyone else) has said but you've been dishonest enough to claim no one has provided you with any such mathematics. Or don't you remember why you had a total of 6 weeks of suspension? Why should I spend more time explaining more things to you when you fall at the first hurdle? Tell me, have you understood yet that Lorentz transforms always map an expanding light sphere to an expanding light sphere?
 
Wrong.

Wrong

Correct, except you should replace "must" with "can". Transforming coordinates (like I do) is a fairly primitive method of applying SR. I'm led to believe that there are much more powerful tools. Ask AlphaNumeric about this.


And it works in reverse.


Right

Wrong.


Frame mixing is trying to be at both ends of the street at once.


Bullshit. You're departing down an irrelevant sidetrack.

So, back to topic:
What "logical inconsistencies" do you think you found in post #4?
And, since I already said the equation in your OP is correct, why do you ask for proof it is false
?

Where is this and what is the context?
 
Why haven't you submitted it to a journal then? If you've got it all typed up then you only need to email them the file. Assuming of course you believe what you claim, that your work is 'proof'. The fact you avoid putting your work in front of people whose physics ability you can't dismiss or ignore speaks volumes.

Once again you misuse the word 'proof'. If a 'proof' can be refuted then it was never a proof in the first place. You should be saying "I have what I believe to be a proof in the pdf, can you refute it?". How many times do you need to be told this?

Thanks, nice of you to finally admit it.

Oh wait, that was your poor communication skills at work, wasn't it? You mean to say that I believe I'm superior at mathematics than you. Yes, I am. I've run circles around you when it comes to vector calculus, special relativity and areas of mathematics like fibre bundles. I can even use the word 'proof' properly.

Please don't piss on my shoes and tell me its raining. We both know full well that whatever anyone says to you, no matter how mathematically detailed, you'll ignore everything. I have explained to you how a Lorentz transform maps an expanding light sphere to an expanding light sphere several ways, many times, using pictures, words and equations. Not only have you failed to grasp what I (or anyone else) has said but you've been dishonest enough to claim no one has provided you with any such mathematics. Or don't you remember why you had a total of 6 weeks of suspension? Why should I spend more time explaining more things to you when you fall at the first hurdle? Tell me, have you understood yet that Lorentz transforms always map an expanding light sphere to an expanding light sphere?

OK, I supplied a proof in the pdf, can you stop it yes or no.

No.

Do you know what that means?
 
Why haven't you submitted it to a journal then? If you've got it all typed up then you only need to email them the file. Assuming of course you believe what you claim, that your work is 'proof'. The fact you avoid putting your work in front of people whose physics ability you can't dismiss or ignore speaks volumes.

Once again you misuse the word 'proof'. If a 'proof' can be refuted then it was never a proof in the first place. You should be saying "I have what I believe to be a proof in the pdf, can you refute it?". How many times do you need to be told this?

Thanks, nice of you to finally admit it.

Oh wait, that was your poor communication skills at work, wasn't it? You mean to say that I believe I'm superior at mathematics than you. Yes, I am. I've run circles around you when it comes to vector calculus, special relativity and areas of mathematics like fibre bundles. I can even use the word 'proof' properly.

Please don't piss on my shoes and tell me its raining. We both know full well that whatever anyone says to you, no matter how mathematically detailed, you'll ignore everything. I have explained to you how a Lorentz transform maps an expanding light sphere to an expanding light sphere several ways, many times, using pictures, words and equations. Not only have you failed to grasp what I (or anyone else) has said but you've been dishonest enough to claim no one has provided you with any such mathematics. Or don't you remember why you had a total of 6 weeks of suspension? Why should I spend more time explaining more things to you when you fall at the first hurdle? Tell me, have you understood yet that Lorentz transforms always map an expanding light sphere to an expanding light sphere?

You know what, just refute my math in terse language like the in link I posted of an interaction I had with trout.

I used one or two sentences only.

So, in the pdf proof, specifically what do you refute?
 
Both of them.

Pete and I have been over the stationary time interval in that last sentence and he sill confirm this interval is a necessary condition of R of S.

Here is the other statement.
the consistency of SR requires the light sphere in the moving frame to remain constant on that stationary time interval

As the light sphere emerges from the light emissin point in the rest frame, it strikes various points.

It turns out, and you can see in the pdf I posted to Pete, that t'=r/c for the set of points on the ellipsoid in the pdf post.

Since there exists motion on the time interval for simultaneity in the moving frame in the context of the rest frame and if one frame evolves time the other must in some way, then the radius of the light sphere in the moving frame must remain constant through a time interval in the rest frame while each frame perceives motion of the other.
 
OK. I give a detailed explanation here.

http://www.proofofabsolutemotion.com/pete.pdf

Please don't do that, Jack. Learn to use $$ tags so you can form your posts in the thread.

Jack said:
...This is the step rpenner did not take. He attempted to form an equality between the frames and that is against the rules of SR as it violates the relativity of simultaneity.

You seem to imply that transforming between frames "violates the relativity of simultaneity"?
Why?$$
 
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