Can prayer or groaning affect God's ultimate decision?

[lightgigantic]

No idea what you're trying to say with relevance to what I said. Mind trying again, or did you just say it because you can't manage to survive one day without mentioning physicists and the word "qualified"?

if my rebuttals appear repetitive its because the arguments offerred tend to be repetitive.

But to go again - it is the nature of reality (or in this case, the existential conditions that give rise to desires of a successful theist) that it lends the same perspective by the seer.

Just like a physicist perceives the same thing as any other physicist, the successful theist has similar desires as any other theist

 

[lightgigantic]

Rom 14:1-3
14:1 Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2 One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.

Lightgigantic you are a vegetarian. Is your faith weak?

since the verse refers to pagans, I don't see where the connection lies

Romans 14: defines the Apollo, Orpheus and Dionysus musical pagans as the weak in the faith. Paul says that we should BEAR with them which means to "walk them away" from their error

.
http://www.piney.com/BibRom14.html

 

[lightgigantic]

Here is a whole website dedicated to the "wonders" and "benefits" of fasting...

http://www.billbright.com/howtofast/why.html

...for your review.

But this is how abused it can get...

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20060510/ai_n16355070

Thank you for your comments.

fasting is a sub religious principle - in other words it is not sufficient to grant perfection in spiritual life

 

[SnakeLord]

if my rebuttals appear repetitive its because the arguments offerred tend to be repetitive.

That's the way to go, blame everyone else.. lol

it is the nature of reality (or in this case, the existential conditions that give rise to desires of a successful theist) that it lends the same perspective by the seer.

Just like a physicist perceives the same thing as any other physicist, the successful theist has similar desires as any other theist

o.........k.

The question posed was whether people's groaning, (or praying), can affect gods decisions and whether a group of people makes a difference.

Matthew 18:20
"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

The above biblical passage implies that the answer to the question is a resounding yes. If more than two people agree on something and ask for it, it will be done - so sayeth god.

What, in the name of zeus's butthole, do physicists have to do with any of this?

Now, before you rush into a response that uses the words: qualified, existential, physicists, congruent, high school dropout or any of your other array of irrelevant verbal sputum, how about you actually read the post first and figure out whether it's relevant to do so or not?

 

[lightgigantic]

That's the way to go, blame everyone else.. lol

sorry - I didn't realize your intelligence was a sacred cow

o.........k.

The question posed was whether people's groaning, (or praying), can affect gods decisions and whether a group of people makes a difference.

Matthew 18:20
"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

The above biblical passage implies that the answer to the question is a resounding yes. If more than two people agree on something and ask for it, it will be done - so sayeth god.

What, in the name of zeus's butthole, do physicists have to do with any of this?

Now, before you rush into a response that uses the words: qualified, existential, physicists, congruent, high school dropout or any of your other array of irrelevant verbal sputum, how about you actually read the post first and figure out whether it's relevant to do so or not?

basically you seem to think that the "if two of you" in the verse means "any two" - in other words you side track the question of qualification to let your sacred cow graze on green expanses

Since the beginning of the chapter reads "18:1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus" it should be clear what catergory the "two" refer to.
It appears that you are thinking too much about examining zeus's butthole rather than issue at hand

 

[SnakeLord]

basically you seem to think that the "if two of you" in the verse means "any two" - in other words you side track the question of qualification to let your sacred cow graze on green expanses

Alas I see my request for you to think first before posting didn't actually do any good. Nope, again you just jumped right in with your "qualified" crapola without taking the time to figure out if it was relevant.

The question asked if people can affect gods decisions, if a collection of people can affect what god does. That biblical passage shows the answer to be a 'yes'. At this stage it is entirely irrelevant whether those group of people need to be physicists, astronauts or zeus's butthole examiners.

"People" can ultimately affect gods decision. What specific people is neither here nor there.

Since the beginning of the chapter reads "18:1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus" it should be clear what catergory the "two" refer to.

If you read the whole thing he's actually teaching his disciples what is and what isn't. This does not mean that everything said is specifically for them and them alone. Just after the part you quoted they ask jesus who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. jesus brings forward a little boy, (no LG, that specific boy is not the greatest). He explains; "in truth I tell you, unless yor change and become like little children.." He goes on to explain humility to them. No LG, this doesn't relate solely to them.

The purpose, which you clearly do not understand yet, was to teach the disciples so that they could teach others. It is those very disciples that passed his word on to everyone else - they wouldn't have served much use if they didn't.

Of course we could just all assume the LG position and ignore anything that wasn't said to us directly. :bugeye:

 

[Adstar]

Ex 2:23-25
23 Now it happened in the process of time that the king of Egypt died. Then the children of Israel groaned because of the bondage, and they cried out; and their cry came up to God because of the bondage. 24 So God heard their groaning, and God remembered His covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob. 25 And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God acknowledged them.

God acknowledged the Children of Israel. Why?

My question is: Did the "groaning" and "whining" of Israel affect the decision of God to "save" them from their physical torment, or was God going to save them anyway?

Does groaning to God really affect whether or not he will take us out of torment, or does groaning only work when thousands of people are groaning over the same thing? In other words, does a certain number of people have to groan and whine before God can do something?

The groaning is intertwined with Gods Plan. God always knew who would groan and when they would groan within the masterpiece of His eternal plan. He incorporated their groaning into His eternal will their acts play a part in His eternal plan. So the groaning does effect Gods plan but God foreknew all groanings and used them as integral components in His design.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Medicine*Woman]

*************
M*W: Does this mean whiny brats will get their way?

 

[SetiAlpha6]

The groaning is intertwined with Gods Plan. God always knew who would groan and when they would groan within the masterpiece of His eternal plan. He incorporated their groaning into His eternal will their acts play a part in His eternal plan. So the groaning does effect Gods plan but God foreknew all groanings and used them as integral components in His design.

Perhaps this is why all of the evil that has ever been committed, anytime and anywhere in the universe, is God's will. Evil can only occur if it is part of God's eternal plan. It must also be part of His masterpiece!

His eternal plan is good. Which means, that the final result of every single evil thing that has ever occurred must be good also. So, we should give thanks, for all evil, all of the time, for it is actually good and is the very will of God! Should we not even encourage evil that good might come from it? Yes! Because that must be part of the eternal plan as well, to bring about more good!

Rejoice, therefore, when you see evil in this world! Rejoice, that the will of God is being accomplished!

God foreknew all of the evil acts that would ever be committed and used them all as integral components in His design.

 

[NDS]

The groaning is intertwined with Gods Plan. God always knew who would groan and when they would groan within the masterpiece of His eternal plan. He incorporated their groaning into His eternal will their acts play a part in His eternal plan. So the groaning does effect Gods plan but God foreknew all groanings and used them as integral components in His design.

Yeah I figured you'd rip out the "God's Eternal Plan" card. This way no matter what happens you can simply say, "Oh yeah, that's just part of God's plan."

The idea of God having a plan is kind of odd. A plan? Humans plan, or make plans, because we don't know what the outcome of something will be. Hence we must plan ahead.

Why exactly does God need a plan? What is he planning for?

 

[Adstar]

Yeah I figured you'd rip out the "God's Eternal Plan" card. This way no matter what happens you can simply say, "Oh yeah, that's just part of God's plan."

The idea of God having a plan is kind of odd. A plan? Humans plan, or make plans, because we don't know what the outcome of something will be. Hence we must plan ahead.

Well people make their plans but events often render their plans obsolete. I think i read a quote from a famous general that most campaign plans of the strategists last only a few days into a war before events make them obsolete. God is not a human and His eternal plan is on schedule.

Why exactly does God need a plan? What is he planning for?

Victory over satan, the ending of the satanic rebellion, eternity i guess. We will find out.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[lightgigantic]

Alas I see my request for you to think first before posting didn't actually do any good. Nope, again you just jumped right in with your "qualified" crapola without taking the time to figure out if it was relevant.

The question asked if people can affect gods decisions, if a collection of people can affect what god does. That biblical passage shows the answer to be a 'yes'. At this stage it is entirely irrelevant whether those group of people need to be physicists, astronauts or zeus's butthole examiners.

"People" can ultimately affect gods decision. What specific people is neither here nor there.



If you read the whole thing he's actually teaching his disciples what is and what isn't. This does not mean that everything said is specifically for them and them alone. Just after the part you quoted they ask jesus who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. jesus brings forward a little boy, (no LG, that specific boy is not the greatest). He explains; "in truth I tell you, unless yor change and become like little children.." He goes on to explain humility to them. No LG, this doesn't relate solely to them.

The purpose, which you clearly do not understand yet, was to teach the disciples so that they could teach others. It is those very disciples that passed his word on to everyone else - they wouldn't have served much use if they didn't.

Of course we could just all assume the LG position and ignore anything that wasn't said to us directly. :bugeye:

isn't that cute?
an atheist quoting scripture
lol

 

[Sarkus]

isn't that cute?
an atheist quoting scripture
lol

You are truly pathetic, LG.
Is this what you resort to when you have run out of anything decent to say, or just can not find a counter-argument?

If I quote "Star Wars" - does that mean I "believe" everything that went on in that far, far away galaxy such a long time ago really happened.
If I start discussing about the meaning in sentences in that film, is it because I "believe" them?

If someone who doesn't even like "Star Wars" uses those same quotes to demonstrate why they think it is, to them, such a lame piece of artistic drivel, does that negate their words, their argument?

Pathetic of you, LG.

And yes, it is a logical fallacy on your part.
Several, actually.
I'll leave you to puzzle out which ones.

 

[SnakeLord]

isn't that cute?
an atheist quoting scripture
lol

Ok, might I ask why you consider it 'cute'? Might I also ask what you mean exactly by cute?

 

[lightgigantic]

Ok, might I ask why you consider it 'cute'? Might I also ask what you mean exactly by cute?

It was just slightly humorous - but I think I am over it now
but to get back on track - despite your foray into the context of the quote you provided - you didn't establish how the 'you' in ""Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything" doesn't involve qualification

Basically you have two ways to look at it

1 - the quote refers to a certain standard or practice, which would explain the discipline and dedication exhibited by practitioners and the unique exemplary character traits exhibited by successful practitioners

2 - the quote doesn't refer to qualification and thus it is a mystery why no one would have clicked on that god doesn't suddenly manifest with a crate of beer to people when more than one of them get together for the past 2000 years of christianity (unless of course its because you are representing the unprecedented force in philosophy and religious studies from the past 2000 years)