Can prayer or groaning affect God's ultimate decision?

N

nds1

Registered Senior Member
Ex 2:23-25
23 Now it happened in the process of time that the king of Egypt died. Then the children of Israel groaned because of the bondage, and they cried out; and their cry came up to God because of the bondage. 24 So God heard their groaning, and God remembered His covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob. 25 And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God acknowledged them.

God acknowledged the Children of Israel. Why?

My question is: Did the "groaning" and "whining" of Israel affect the decision of God to "save" them from their physical torment, or was God going to save them anyway?

Does groaning to God really affect whether or not he will take us out of torment, or does groaning only work when thousands of people are groaning over the same thing? In other words, does a certain number of people have to groan and whine before God can do something?
 
It sounds like groaning is more powerful than praying.

We should pray less and groan more.

Oh... wait. Nevermind.
 
nds1 said:
Ex 2:23-25
23 Now it happened in the process of time that the king of Egypt died. Then the children of Israel groaned because of the bondage, and they cried out; and their cry came up to God because of the bondage. 24 So God heard their groaning, and God remembered His covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob. 25 And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God acknowledged them.

God acknowledged the Children of Israel. Why?

My question is: Did the "groaning" and "whining" of Israel affect the decision of God to "save" them from their physical torment, or was God going to save them anyway?

Does groaning to God really affect whether or not he will take us out of torment, or does groaning only work when thousands of people are groaning over the same thing? In other words, does a certain number of people have to groan and whine before God can do something?
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Does God have a poor memory? Does He need our help to remind Him of His own commitments? These scriptures are clearly false!
 
I often wonder how theists resolve these sorts of conundrums - as God knows all he can not be affected by any new information because there is no new information and as such praying is a waste of time as it has no affect on God as God does not decide based on anything - everything is decided.

An omniscience God leaves no room for free will.
 
nds1 said:
Ex 2:23-25
23 Now it happened in the process of time that the king of Egypt died. Then the children of Israel groaned because of the bondage, and they cried out; and their cry came up to God because of the bondage. 24 So God heard their groaning, and God remembered His covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob. 25 And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God acknowledged them.

God acknowledged the Children of Israel. Why?

My question is: Did the "groaning" and "whining" of Israel affect the decision of God to "save" them from their physical torment, or was God going to save them anyway?

Does groaning to God really affect whether or not he will take us out of torment, or does groaning only work when thousands of people are groaning over the same thing? In other words, does a certain number of people have to groan and whine before God can do something?
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in essence, god is a person and he responds like a person - it boils down to not numbers but quality of relationship

BG 6.30: For one who sees Me everywhere and sees everything in Me, I am never lost, nor is he ever lost to Me.
 
THE GROANING of the righteous only

nds1 said:
Ex 2:23-25
23 Now it happened in the process of time that the king of Egypt died. Then the children of Israel groaned because of the bondage, and they cried out; and their cry came up to God because of the bondage. 24 So God heard their groaning, and God remembered His covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob. 25 And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God acknowledged them.

God acknowledged the Children of Israel. Why?

My question is: Did the "groaning" and "whining" of Israel affect the decision of God to "save" them from their physical torment, or was God going to save them anyway?

Does groaning to God really affect whether or not he will take us out of torment, or does groaning only work when thousands of people are groaning over the same thing? In other words, does a certain number of people have to groan and whine before God can do something?
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We the living have the capacity to weigh down facts and truths, physically and emotionally. Whether you choose vice or virtue, we are inside the chamber earth and the writers of our acts are the angels of the Creator. So, the groanings of the righteous always catch the searching Spirit of God.

Is it difficult to display a make-believe only?
 
lightgigantic said:
in essence, god is a person and he responds like a person - it boils down to not numbers but quality of relationship

BG 6.30: For one who sees Me everywhere and sees everything in Me, I am never lost, nor is he ever lost to Me.
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Apparently, the Bible prophesized that Israel would become a country again (and they did in the 1950's or around then).

So regardless of how much the people of Israel prayed and groaned to become their own nation again, wasn't God simply going to do it anyway?

Let's say someone is on their deathbed. That person's family are good, spiritual people. They start moaning and groaning because of their sick family member. Will God intervene, or will he do whatever he was going to do anyway? Meaning, if it was "his will" for the guy to die, won't he just let him die, and if not let him live? I don't see how the groaning can affect anything.
 
Prince_James said:
Prayer is irreconcilable with a perfect deity.
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Is "perfect" a good adjective to describe a God?
I personally don't think of a God as being "perfect" per say, I mean, not being able to learn anything new, IMHO, would simply suck and be akin to living in Hell.
God is like a big fat full Hard Drive in the sky.
I pity It if anything.
Perhaps our suffering is simply a reflection of Its?

:worship:


Archangel Michael :p
 
god is a person and he responds like a person - it boils down to not numbers but quality of relationship
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Matthew 18:20
"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

Seems from a biblical perspective that numbers are of importance. That passage is seemingly a guarantee that god will do anything you for as long as more than one of you get together and ask for it.

Seems now all that's needed is for a couple of gods people to come together and ask for the end of disease and it shall happen. All this time spent by science trying to eradicate disease and all it takes are two or three christians. Hmm...
 
Michael:

A being which does not have all perfections, is assuredly not God in any meaningful sense, as necessity demands perfection of certain attributes.

It is unlikely that this God can be considered conscious, though.
 
Can we change God’s mind? No!
Can even God Himself change His own mind? No!

Unless, of course, He makes mistakes.
 
Christian prayers all too often consist of a human being telling God what to do. It's almost like they really think that God is kind of stupid or something.

Prayers like: “Heal this or that person”, “Give me a new car,” "Kill all my enemies," or “Please send Joe to hell where he belongs.” I mean, they are asking for "good" things, Right? Some prayers are "others centered" (see Joe), but probably most are "self centered" (see Joe). Most are just straight out selfish in nature!

Now, how much arrogance is required for someone to think that they can instruct God in anything?

Yet people do this very thing all the time. And they are even encouraged to do it every Sunday in church!

:shh:
 
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Supposedly the very best way to get God to do what you want is through self-starvation. Let us not forget the wondrous benefits of fasting! The game of personal God manipulation, all brought to you by your local church. The goal is to threaten God with the possibility of your own death, in order to blackmail Him into obeying you, because after all, you know best.

Self-mutilation can only help in this area as well. You know, plucking out your eyeballs or cutting off your hands to stop yourself from sinning, so your prayers will be more likely answered. (Please do not try this yourself)

In theory, I suppose that one could even cut off his own hands to stop himself from sinning, and then pray "without sin" with washed and "holy" feet clasped together, that God would give him a new set of hands that will not cause him to sin. If you pray without doubting this should work. (Again, please do not try this at home!)

Unfortunately, this approach is completely Biblical.

(F.Y.I. While I would personally recommended that you not do any of these things, the Bible encourages the same and much more.)
 
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nds1 said:
Apparently, the Bible prophesized that Israel would become a country again (and they did in the 1950's or around then).

So regardless of how much the people of Israel prayed and groaned to become their own nation again, wasn't God simply going to do it anyway?

Let's say someone is on their deathbed. That person's family are good, spiritual people. They start moaning and groaning because of their sick family member. Will God intervene, or will he do whatever he was going to do anyway? Meaning, if it was "his will" for the guy to die, won't he just let him die, and if not let him live? I don't see how the groaning can affect anything.
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the highest calibre of god's devotee is capable of controlling god, even though god is not controlled by anyone

SB 11.11.28: My dear Lord, as the Absolute Truth You are transcendental to material nature, and like the sky You are never entangled in any way. Still, being controlled by Your devotees' love, You accept many different forms, incarnating according to Your devotees' desires.

- however one of the qualities of a devotee of the highest calibre is that they are completely surrendered to any act of providence whether apparently materially auspicious or inauspicious, so perhaps it wouldn't be appropriate to describe them as 'moaning' and 'groaning' (which are usually the occupations of devotees of lesser standing and atheists alike, being deeply afflicted by attachment and aversion)

SnakeLord said:
Matthew 18:20
"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

Seems from a biblical perspective that numbers are of importance. That passage is seemingly a guarantee that god will do anything you for as long as more than one of you get together and ask for it.

Seems now all that's needed is for a couple of gods people to come together and ask for the end of disease and it shall happen. All this time spent by science trying to eradicate disease and all it takes are two or three christians. Hmm...
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or it could also indicate that a person whose desires are capable of being fulfilled are not incongruent from another person similarly qualified - just like the claims or views of a qualified physicist are commonly congruent with the claims of at least one other physicist
 
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SetiAlpha6 said:
Supposedly the very best way to get God to do what you want is through self-starvation.
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I have never heard of a scriptural quote that suggests that - also you don't find it is a view commonly held by practicing theists either

you do find views like this however

BG 6.16: There is no possibility of one's becoming a yogī, O Arjuna, if one eats too much or eats too little, sleeps too much or does not sleep enough.

BG 6.17: He who is regulated in his habits of eating, sleeping, recreation and work can mitigate all material pains by practicing the yoga system.
Let us not forget the wondrous benefits of fasting! The game of personal God manipulation, all brought to you by your local church. The goal is to threaten God with the possibility of your own death, in order to blackmail Him into obeying you, because after all, you know best.
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since we die, with or without food, its not clear where the benefit lies

BG 9.19: O Arjuna, I give heat, and I withhold and send forth the rain. I am immortality, and I am also death personified. Both spirit and matter are in Me.

Self-mutilation can only help in this area as well. You know, plucking out your eyeballs or cutting off your hands to stop yourself from sinning, so your prayers will be more likely answered. (Please do not try this yourself)
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actually this sounds remarkably similar to descriptions of the atheistic descriptions

BG 16.23: He who discards scriptural injunctions and acts according to his own whims attains neither perfection, nor happiness, nor the supreme destination.

BG 17.5-6: Those who undergo severe austerities and penances not recommended in the scriptures, performing them out of pride and egoism, who are impelled by lust and attachment, who are foolish and who torture the material elements of the body as well as the Supersoul dwelling within, are to be known as demons.

In theory, I suppose that one could even cut off his own hands to stop himself from sinning, and then pray "without sin" with washed and "holy" feet clasped together, that God would give him a new set of hands that will not cause him to sin. If you pray without doubting this should work. (Again, please do not try this at home!)
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the solution to refraining from sinful is not so simple, since the sinful mentality is deeply rooted in something too subtle to amputate
Unfortunately, this approach is completely Biblical.
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then the next question is why is not proposed by common schools of christianity (and seems to only be advocated by a certified lunatic and atheists bent on disfiguring theistic doctrines or ideas to suit their agenda)

(F.Y.I. While I would personally recommended that you not do any of these things, the Bible encourages the same and much more.)
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therefore the safer option is to approach scripture through a practitioner lest one makes the folly of interpreting scripture according to one's erroneous conditioned nature
 
or it could also indicate that a person whose desires are capable of being fulfilled are not incongruent from another person similarly qualified - just like the claims or views of a qualified physicist are commonly congruent with the claims of at least one other physicist
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No idea what you're trying to say with relevance to what I said. Mind trying again, or did you just say it because you can't manage to survive one day without mentioning physicists and the word "qualified"?
 
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Rom 14:1-3
14:1 Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2 One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.

Lightgigantic you are a vegetarian. Is your faith weak?
 
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