Can Morality Exist Without God?

scifes said:
yup, that's him.
"mean" has been discussed in length, what're you gonna do about it?
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I'm not gonna believe in him until he shows his chicken-sh*t face. And I'm gonna use my superior moral sense to recognize him as evil for punishing people according to arbitrary rules while programming us to break them.

I'm also going to hold people that can't see that god has nothing to do with morality in low esteem.
 
swivel said:
I'm not gonna believe in him until he shows his chicken-sh*t face.
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now you're being a child, what if he doesn't want to? you're gonna make him?
didn't your dad teach you to choose your fights more wisely?

lol, lecturing as a grownup sure is fun:D
And I'm gonna use my superior moral sense
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:roflmao:
oh pulleeeease!!

ok ok, so, how is god not moral? please tell me, as my god's morality complies with mine..please give me an example...
to recognize him as evil for punishing people according to arbitrary rules
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any moral rules must have been arbitrary in their origin..

lol, so like what rules do you want to follow?

while programming us to break them.
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this is VEEEEARY important..no mister, he programmed us with FREE WILL to break them or abide them, i mean i don't get you guys, once you're complaining that you have no free will and so don't like the idea of destiny, and now you're blaming god for giving you free will even against his own word?(temporarily of course)

I'm also going to hold people that can't see that god has nothing to do with morality in low esteem.
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uh:huh: ok..
 
No body gives you free will except you.
Not even god.

If god can't choose to do evil, then she can't be moral.
 
like i said, maybe, but he doesn't do it indiscriminately, he tells you where the roads lead and give you the wheel.
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Alright - I'll skip the short comments regarding the biblical quotes, (which are only going to serve as arguments against christians, which you apparently are not).

Here's a question though based upon your statement above. You see, I told my daughter not to stick her fingers in the plug socket. I advised her of the outcome and the dangers and so on. She, being inquisitive, stuck her fingers in there anyway.

As an "all-loving" father - that happens to have been fortunate enough to know in advance - I turned the electricity off just before she did it.

Hopefully you see the point.

Let me try it another way: I had a friend that wanted to skydive. I told him his parachute wasn't going to open but he didn't believe me. He jumped and - lo and behold - his parachute didn't open. Now, I had the ability to save him from going *squish* but didn't bother.

You need to recognise that not believing or not paying attention does not mean someone wants to suffer. Any "all-loving" parent would prevent the suffering if they could, (even if it's just a simple scenario like getting an injection), on the basis that the suffering is unwanted.

No, not-suffering does not make the world a worse place to be in. It actually makes it heaven. At the very least, I can assure you that most parents would do it if they could, (this negates some of those parents that do all sorts to their own kids. We have several names for them).

To use your analogy: I gave my daughter the wheel. Doesn't whatsoever mean I don't grab hold of it when she's about to drive into a river.
 
@ snakelord
I do not have children, I do not know anything about parenting, sorry if there is an obvious answer to this question. I would like to know how do you teach your daughter to be independent so she can take care of herself and protect herself when you are not around to do that for her?
 
fiicere said:
A question I've always wanted to have answered.

To clarify, I AM NOT ASKING "Can people be moral people and not believe in God." I AM asking if there is any good reason to have a moral standard if there is no God.
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Oh, you mean, "is it okay for a person to go around acting like an asshat if there isn't a God there to say it's wrong?" Well, it would sure chap my ass. Next.
 
scifes said:
any moral rules must have been arbitrary in their origin..
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Not true. Evolution selected for innate ethics that would allow individual genes to express themselves as much as possible. A built-in sense of "fairness" resides in us all. We can see this in game theory experiments as rewards are haggled over, gifts distributed, and iterations of "The Prisoner's Dilemma" are played out.

These results cut across cultures and have parallels in the animal kingdom, which means they aren't socially constructed nor arbitrary. In fact, these experiments and subsequent research seems to point to a biological origin for "The Golden Rule." This explains why it shows up in almost every religion and philosophy of ethics. Not arbitrary at all.
 
Nietzsche

fiicere said:
A question I've always wanted to have answered.

To clarify, I AM NOT ASKING "Can people be moral people and not believe in God." I AM asking if there is any good reason to have a moral standard if there is no God.
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You should read “Beyond Good and Evil” by Nietzsche, especially the chapter “On morality and religion”.
Nietzche argues that god is dead in that conceptually mankind should have progressed to a point that belief in a supernatural overlord is not necessary.
There are no heavens or hells and no one to condemn or save your soul; there for the only judges of your moral turpitude are other human beings.
The question is would you still feel guilty without “God” looking over your shoulder?
 
SnakeLord said:
Alright - I'll skip the short comments regarding the biblical quotes, (which are only going to serve as arguments against christians, which you apparently are not).

Here's a question though based upon your statement above. You see, I told my daughter not to stick her fingers in the plug socket. I advised her of the outcome and the dangers and so on. She, being inquisitive, stuck her fingers in there anyway.

As an "all-loving" father - that happens to have been fortunate enough to know in advance - I turned the electricity off just before she did it.

Hopefully you see the point.

Let me try it another way: I had a friend that wanted to skydive. I told him his parachute wasn't going to open but he didn't believe me. He jumped and - lo and behold - his parachute didn't open. Now, I had the ability to save him from going *squish* but didn't bother.

You need to recognise that not believing or not paying attention does not mean someone wants to suffer. Any "all-loving" parent would prevent the suffering if they could, (even if it's just a simple scenario like getting an injection), on the basis that the suffering is unwanted.

No, not-suffering does not make the world a worse place to be in. It actually makes it heaven. At the very least, I can assure you that most parents would do it if they could, (this negates some of those parents that do all sorts to their own kids. We have several names for them).

To use your analogy: I gave my daughter the wheel. Doesn't whatsoever mean I don't grab hold of it when she's about to drive into a river.
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niiiice..
....
...ok
but hold on, if i try to apply your examples to god they wouldn't fit.
.
.
.
would it make it any easier to say god created humanity to send half of them to hell?
 
swivel said:
Not true. Evolution selected for innate ethics that would allow individual genes to express themselves as much as possible. A built-in sense of "fairness" resides in us all. We can see this in game theory experiments as rewards are haggled over, gifts distributed, and iterations of "The Prisoner's Dilemma" are played out.

These results cut across cultures and have parallels in the animal kingdom, which means they aren't socially constructed nor arbitrary. In fact, these experiments and subsequent research seems to point to a biological origin for "The Golden Rule." This explains why it shows up in almost every religion and philosophy of ethics. Not arbitrary at all.
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:confused:
you don't get it...why was the golden rule implanted into the genes, why not some other platinum rule that would have made our whole world different?

and if our world did have a platinum rule iin their genes instead (which resulted in morality climaxing in eating your neighbor alive or something like that), if that's the world we lived in, can't we ask; why wouldn't we have had the golden rule implanted in our genes?

get out of the how, tell me why.
 
scifes said:
and if our world did have a platinum rule iin their genes instead (which resulted in morality climaxing in eating your neighbor alive or something like that), if that's the world we lived in, can't we ask; why wouldn't we have had the golden rule implanted in our genes?
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We would have to ignore millions of years of evolution and begin conjuring wizards potions and waving magic wands.

But, you see, that isn't the world we live in, it's just the world you fantasize.
 
fiicere said:
are you gonna stop wasting my time with monosyllabic responses and actually post something worthwhile, or will you satisfy yourself with your own ignorant bias and oh-so-clever mispelling of the name of the Book you're referring to, minus any actual examples, of course?
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If anyone is wasting your time, it is you.
 
scifes said:
while programming us to break them.
”
this is VEEEEARY important..no mister, he programmed us with FREE WILL to break them or abide them,
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It's very difficult to perfectly resist the temptations and compulsions and delusions fostered somehow in human nature - very few people are programmed to always possess as much will, free or otherwise, as they would need.

The programmer loaded the dice, biased the program. We see the recognition of that in the bizarre lengths to which some believers will go in merely avoiding opportunity or temptation - making the girls wear shapeless bags and stay indoors, banning alcohol from entire areas, etc.
 
iceaura said:
It's very difficult to perfectly resist the temptations and compulsions and delusions fostered somehow in human nature - very few people are programmed to always possess as much will, free or otherwise, as they would need.
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giving in to these temptations, or "sinning" is accepted in religions, those which kick you out of a religion are rarely those of temptations.
also, that is where redemption and repentence come into view.. god doesn't mind people slipping once in a while if they aknowledge what they did is wrong.
The programmer loaded the dice, biased the program. We see the recognition of that in the bizarre lengths to which some believers will go in merely avoiding opportunity or temptation - making the girls wear shapeless bags and stay indoors, banning alcohol from entire areas, etc.
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what's wrong with that?
experience of cultures based on such "boundaries" are more successful, even secular ones are adapting to that slowly..
 
The concept of God exists as a result of morality, not the other way around.

When one thinks about evolutionary theory, the concept of God explains itself.
The notion of God appeals only to those who can not accept a biological imperative without obvious direction.
 
Since the concept of god is based on a lie, god forms an inherantly immoral foundation.
 
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