Can "make your own faith" survive?

Lawdog

Digging up old bones
Registered Senior Member
This is not a call for anti-protestant rambling, since The Church acknowledges the freedom for each to pursue the realities of faith. The Church is thankful for much of what the protestants have accompl;ished and aided the Church in.

HOwever:

Given that God exists :rolleyes: Can the protestant foundation of designing one's own Jesus-idol out of scripture quotes, that is, the protestant version of Jesus according to the interpretative guidance of a confiding "spirit" (rather than Church authority and Tradition) survive the pressures of the comming millenium?

Protestantism is an obvious attempt to have a designer Jesus. Can this frail style of faith based on a "personal relationship with Jesus-idol" really mantain the coming assaults on the christian institutions of the west?

1) Consider the draw of other religions on the rise: Islam and Neopaganism, whose power of attracting and retaining devotees is much more effective than protestantism.

2) Consider the fact that protestantism has thrived mostly as a "check" or critique of Catholicism. With Catholicism greatly diminished in numbers, this
motivation will greatly diminish.

3) The rise of twisted Biblical criticism has shook the foundations of sola scriptura.

4) The rise of pseudo-christian feminism in liberal churches has deeply influenced the faith structures of mainline protestant groups.

5) Lack of tradition causes the right wing christians to fall into a fundamentalist trap.
 
You might as well ask, "will our own capacity for judgement survive the rise of conformity and facism?". Maybe, maybe not. If you look into early Christianity, you will find that there was a wide variety of thought, gospels, and commentary; much greater than the 2000 years that followed (but perhaps not as much as now). It was the orthodox church in the first place that instituted a fixed set of parameters that define Christianity. This uniformity probably assisted it's popularity, and the same way that uniformity of mass production made automobiles so popular. Capacity for subtlety and nuance are not exactly the strongpoints of mass culture.

I think the only way Christianity can survive is by reinterpreting their teachings and the meaning of the gospels so that it's relevent. The Roman Catholics are losing popularity precisely because they are so stuck in the past and tradition.
 
An very well thought argument. However, how do you explain the persistance of a uniform faith for so long? After all, institutions and states that were contemporaneous with the former ages of the Church have passed away, but the church has remained.

Also, even if the Church becomes unpopular because it sticks to old beliefs, does that make it wrong? What is your criterion for Truth?
 
However, how do you explain the persistance of a uniform faith for so long?
1. The invention of the printing press which meant a uniform and mass-produced Bible.

2. Lack of other media like today with radio, TV, and the internet. Nowadays, a person interested in religious subjects can find a greater variety of information than ever before, and may be exposed to previously fringe material.

What is your criterion for Truth?
That's a big question. Basically, things can only be considered true within a defined context, such as scientific truth. The Tao Te Ching says that, "The truth that can be told is not the eternal truth.". Christians think their ideology defines truth, and that it's fixed and definable and like a rock, but I think Christianity only defines a cultural style, a worldview, a set of metaphorical narratives meant to teach ethical behavior, ect. I think the truth of Jesus was more subtle than that expressed in Christianity, and was about dispelling the illusions of boundries that separate people. The truth is a person is an illusion, their boundries cannot be found, they are one with their creator.

I believe that the scientific method is the only way to know something with a reasonable degree of certainty. That leaves alot out which may only be called, "true enough".
 
Your quote from Tao Te Ching is interesting. I think you have misapplied it to censure Christian theology. The quote is totally in keeping with our view of things. Only God can utter the Truth, which is more than just what words are heard. Catholics do not say that our ideology defines Truth, but rather that Truth must define our ideology. In fact, we are so adamant about this that we say that we cannot change the Truth even if we wanted. Hence we are accused of hanging on to outdated dogmas. But we cannot change them!

Truth is also ontological. It is a person of infinite mystery: The Christ.

Our faith teaches that there are many mysteries about God.
 
Lawdog said:
This is not a call for anti-protestant rambling, since The Church acknowledges the freedom for each to pursue the realities of faith. The Church is thankful for much of what the protestants have accompl;ished and aided the Church in.

HOwever:

Given that God exists :rolleyes: Can the protestant foundation of designing one's own Jesus-idol out of scripture quotes, that is, the protestant version of Jesus according to the interpretative guidance of a confiding "spirit" (rather than Church authority and Tradition) survive the pressures of the comming millenium?

Protestantism is an obvious attempt to have a designer Jesus. Can this frail style of faith based on a "personal relationship with Jesus-idol" really mantain the coming assaults on the christian institutions of the west?

1) Consider the draw of other religions on the rise: Islam and Neopaganism, whose power of attracting and retaining devotees is much more effective than protestantism.

2) Consider the fact that protestantism has thrived mostly as a "check" or critique of Catholicism. With Catholicism greatly diminished in numbers, this
motivation will greatly diminish.

3) The rise of twisted Biblical criticism has shook the foundations of sola scriptura.

4) The rise of pseudo-christian feminism in liberal churches has deeply influenced the faith structures of mainline protestant groups.

5) Lack of tradition causes the right wing christians to fall into a fundamentalist trap.

My faith rests upon the guidance of the Holy Spirit. As long as i rely upon the Holy Spirit then my faith is assured.

Your faith rests upon your faith in the traditions of men who have twisted the scriptures. Your faith will be twisted to the extent that when the anti-christ comes you will indeed accept His as the returned Messiah and you will receive the mark of the beast. Your faith is leading you and millions of others into the pit.

You can take this as a rant if you want. You can take it anyway you want.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
I think its evolve or risk having your ideology die out altogether at this point, people are already getting suspicious that jesus/god in their infinite wisdom didnt get round to mentioning anything about the topics that affect us today - abortion, euthenasia, animal rights, racism etc etc.
So whats left for any church to do at this point? simply to play a guessing game of whats going on in Jesus's head (although really theyre simply using Jesus to project their own beliefs and personal morals...shh dont tell anyone).
I think it *might* reach a critical mass where people will suddenly realise that the church(s) is obviously speaking more about their own beliefs rather than god/jesuses.
Maybe people will switch to worshiping Ron L Hubbard at that point who knows lolz
 
Jesus did speak of those things, modern ethical questions, since he makes statements about the principles of life and truth. We apply those principles to find answers to difficult questions

Jesus also left the Catholic Church to help us discern the right answers.
 
Adstar said:
My faith rests upon the guidance of the Holy Spirit. As long as i rely upon the Holy Spirit then my faith is assured.
But still, your Jesus is merely a creation of scripture quotes that you synthesize into a system. Our Jesus was given to us by supernatural agency working through Tradition and Scripture.

Your faith rests upon your faith in the traditions of men who have twisted the scriptures. Your faith will be twisted to the extent that when the anti-christ comes you will indeed accept His as the returned Messiah and you will receive the mark of the beast. Your faith is leading you and millions of others into the pit.
I do not deny that some in our faith will be decieved. Most of us however have been changed interiorily and have union with Christ. Therefore we will see the reality. Your faith however has not guard against deception, since even the Devil can quote scripture for his purpose.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days[/QUOTE]
 
Lawdog said:
But still, your Jesus is merely a creation of scripture quotes that you synthesize into a system. Our Jesus was given to us by supernatural agency working through Tradition and Scripture.

Your "faith" was given to you by the act of harlotry with a king of this world called constantine. Your predecessors rebelled against the expressed wish of the Messiah Jesus by seeking worldly security via the agency of the powers that be on earth. In doing so they saved their lives and worked for their new masters the kings of the earth who are ruled by satan. But in saving their lives they lost there eternal lives. They have shown thorough the centuries their corruption and evil deeds that they where not children of God.


I do not deny that some in our faith will be decieved. Most of us however have been changed interiorily and have union with Christ. Therefore we will see the reality.

You are deceived both liberal and conservative. satan uses the age old game of providing people with two false views for people to choose between and allowing them to show themselves evil in the eyes of God by going against The Messiahs expressed Word to love their enemies. satan has had his victory over billions and they have shown by falling for his deception that they look upon the Words of Jesus as naive foolishness. How false are their claims that the believe Jesus. The Words of Jesus clearly show they do not believe Him.



Your faith however has not guard against deception, since even the Devil can quote scripture for his purpose.

No. Those who trust in God alone will be guided and protected from deception. Those like you who reject The Words of Jesus have already been deceived beyond measure.



John 6
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

ALL OF THEM


Matthew 4
4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”



All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Adstar said:
Your "faith" was given to you by the act of harlotry with a king of this world called constantine. Your predecessors rebelled against the expressed wish of the Messiah Jesus by seeking worldly security via the agency of the powers that be on earth. In doing so they saved their lives and worked for their new masters the kings of the earth who are ruled by satan. But in saving their lives they lost there eternal lives. They have shown thorough the centuries their corruption and evil deeds that they where not children of God.
Our faith dates from Jesus. You say that we prostituted religion to the Emperor of Rome. Constantine became a Catholic because he felt God was calling to him to change the world. Why do you look down upon a worldly king? Do you think that the rulers of this world are evil? Do you think that God does not help them? You say that we sought worldly security, yet our martyrs died in droves during the many persecutions. Just because we became the state religion for aperiod of time, and even the worst of men became Catholic, that doesnt mean that our teachings are wrong.

You are deceived both liberal and conservative. satan uses the age old game of providing people with two false views for people to choose between and allowing them to show themselves evil in the eyes of God by going against The Messiahs expressed Word to love their enemies. satan has had his victory over billions and they have shown by falling for his deception that they look upon the Words of Jesus as naive foolishness. How false are their claims that the believe Jesus. The Words of Jesus clearly show they do not believe Him.

We pray for our opponents, but consider no one an enemy, since all are called to this faith, even the most foolish or evil-minded liberals. We love them, but we do not accept their heresies. Hate the sin, not the sinner.

No. Those who trust in God alone will be guided and protected from deception. Those like you who reject The Words of Jesus have already been deceived beyond measure.
I read scripture and do not reject His words. TRusting in God alone is not God's plan for us humans, otherwise he would not have given us families.

John 6
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
Our Church is not of the flesh, or else it would have died long ago like flesh.


Matthew 4
4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”
Notice that scripture says "not by bread alone" this is true, but man cannot live by mere scriptures alone either. If he could only live by the words of a book, he would not need the thousands of medieval Catholic monks to hand down to him the words of God.
 
Lawdog said:
Jesus did speak of those things, modern ethical questions, since he makes statements about the principles of life and truth. We apply those principles to find answers to difficult questions
Yeah im just saying he didnt give future generations much to go on really, i mean saying love thy neighbour is fine, but its not addressing some pretty grey areas of morality that currently trouble us.

Jesus also left the Catholic Church to help us discern the right answers.
:confused: :confused:
 
Lawdog said:
Jesus also left the Catholic Church to help us discern the right answers.

*************
M*W: Lapdog, can you please explain this statement? Having been a formerally devout Roman Catholic, I find it bizarre that you say "Jesus left the Catholic Church." But, saying that, you might be right, because I didn't find him there when I went to The Vatican.
 
I read scripture and do not reject His words.
Thomas Jefferson thought somewhat differently.

"In extracting the pure principles which he taught, we should have to strip off the artificial vestments in which they have been muffled by priests, who have travestied them into various forms, as instruments of riches and power to themselves. We must dismiss the Platonists and Plotinists, the Stagyrites and Gamalielites, the Eclectics, the Gnostics and Scholastics, their essences and emanations, their logos and demiurgos, aeons and daemons, male and female, with a long train of … or, shall I say at once, of nonsense. We must reduce our volume to the simple evangelists, select, even from them, the very words only of Jesus, paring off the amphibologisms into which they have been led, by forgetting often, or not understanding, what had fallen from him, by giving their own misconceptions as his dicta, and expressing unintelligibly for others what they had not understood themselves. There will be found remaining the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man. I have performed this operation for my own use, by cutting verse by verse out of the printed book, and arranging the matter which is evidently his, and which is as easily distinguishable as diamonds in a dunghill."
 
Lawdog said:
Adstar said:
Our faith dates from Jesus. You say that we prostituted religion to the Emperor of Rome. Constantine became a Catholic because he felt God was calling to him to change the world.

constantine was a man engaged in a civil war whose objective was the title of Roman emperor. He was a man lusting for power and saw an unused source of power in the Christian community. He had seen "True Christians" die for their faith in Jesus and wished he had supporters with such dedication in his support. So he made up a BS story about seeing a sign in the sky from God in a desperate attempt to win over a until then large silent portion of the population. He succeeded in his political ploy and many christians abandoned their Lord Jesus to help constantine reach his objective of worldly power. These false christians where no longer willing to suffer persecution for their faith. They had had enough of waiting for their Messiah to return. So from that day on they served their new master and altered the doctrines of the Bible to suit the needs of their new master. Once they rejected the call of Jesus to Love their enemies and not to resist an evil person they where on the road to destruction, they where no longer Christians but in fact became a tool of satan to persecute true Christians.



Why do you look down upon a worldly king? Do you think that the rulers of this world are evil?

They are in the service of satan. All the kingdoms of this world are in the service of satan. satan offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world if He would serve him and satan offered the kingdoms of the world to false christians if they would serve him, your predecessors did not tell satan where to go like Jesus did. satan through his worldly kings had persecuted true Christians for centuries but knew there was a better way to stop people believing Jesus. that was to create a false church who preached another jesus manned by people who where sick of the stick and where ready to accept the evil carrot.



Do you think that God does not help them?

Of cource God helps the evil leaders of this world, He helped Nebuchadnezzar king of babylon invade and destroy Jerusalem. The evil intents and acts of the kings of this world are woven into Gods eternal plan. God raised pharaoh to be his adversary so that He could do a mighty work in liberating the Hebrews from Egypt. So yes God does help them but not to there eternal benefit.



You say that we sought worldly security, yet our martyrs died in droves during the many persecutions.

No. True Christians died in the coliseums at the hands of the roman soldiers who where tools of satan and roman state and true Christians died by being burn't at the stake by catholics who where tools of satan and the roman state.



Just because we became the state religion for aperiod of time, and even the worst of men became Catholic, that doesnt mean that our teachings are wrong.

Yes the worst of men because catholic because false christians had prostituted themselves to the powers of rome. You own words confirm the evil of the catholic church. Corrupt and powerful organization always attract power hungry and corrupt individuals. Once they made themselves the whore of Rome they attracted people interested in worldly power.



We pray for our opponents, but consider no one an enemy, since all are called to this faith, even the most foolish or evil-minded liberals.

You burn't to death those who opposed you and launched the crusades that murdered thousands, Your Word twisting theologians created doctines of justifiable war in an attempt to make these acts of evil good.



We love them, but we do not accept their heresies. Hate the sin, not the sinner.

Your love is not the agape love of Jesus, the catholic churches actions thought history make this clear.



I read scripture and do not reject His words. TRusting in God alone is not God's plan for us humans, otherwise he would not have given us families.

It isn't???? Trusting in God is everything. and the only thing we can trust in.



Our Church is not of the flesh, or else it would have died long ago like flesh.

Of course not. Your church serves a needed purpose as a trap for those seeking God to be lead away down a path into the lake of fire. satan has set up a lot of diverting pathways from the true path doing his best to take as many with him as he goes. Your church is a big road it is a wide way but it is not the only one.

Matthew 7
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. You Will Know Them by Their Fruits.

Your churches very size, its hundreds of million of members clearly attest that it is not the narrow way that is found by few.

The fruits of the catholic church are pogroms, crusades, massacres, burnings, religious wars, inquisitions, corruption, greed, support for Nazis, child molestation and spiritual harlotry with anti-christ religions:

popekiss.jpg


Yes. Your former spiritual leader. Bowing his head and kissing the quran. A book that states that Jesus was not born of a virgin. A book that states that Jesus was not crucified nor was He raised from the dead. A book that called the trinity blasphemy. What better example of the spiritual corruption and depths of spiritual depravity your false religion will go to for worldly security and power?



Notice that scripture says "not by bread alone" this is true, but man cannot live by mere scriptures alone either. If he could only live by the words of a book, he would not need the thousands of medieval Catholic monks to hand down to him the words of God.

The thousands of monks locked up the WORD of God in their monastries and the church made it a death penalty for the comon people to hear the Word of God in their common language. Why because the lies had become so bad and the twisting of scripture had become so blaitant that if the comon people had access to the Word then they would clearlt see the evil state of the church of rome. I thank God the Word of God was liberated from the hands of this evil organisation and is now avaliable to each and every man in nearly all the languages in the world. Even though i do not look upon luther as a brother in Jesus he was just another evil man used by God for His greater purpose.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Medicine Woman said:
*************
M*W: Lapdog, can you please explain this statement? Having been a formerally devout Roman Catholic, I find it bizarre that you say "Jesus left the Catholic Church." But, saying that, you might be right, because I didn't find him there when I went to The Vatican.
What was it that bothered you so much about The Vatican or Catholicism that you withdrew your soul from the source of its life?
 
spidergoat said:
Thomas Jefferson thought somewhat differently.

"In extracting the pure principles which he taught, we should have to strip off the artificial vestments in which they have been muffled by priests, who have travestied them into various forms, as instruments of riches and power to themselves. We must dismiss the Platonists and Plotinists, the Stagyrites and Gamalielites, the Eclectics, the Gnostics and Scholastics, their essences and emanations, their logos and demiurgos, aeons and daemons, male and female, with a long train of … or, shall I say at once, of nonsense. We must reduce our volume to the simple evangelists, select, even from them, the very words only of Jesus, paring off the amphibologisms into which they have been led, by forgetting often, or not understanding, what had fallen from him, by giving their own misconceptions as his dicta, and expressing unintelligibly for others what they had not understood themselves. There will be found remaining the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man. I have performed this operation for my own use, by cutting verse by verse out of the printed book, and arranging the matter which is evidently his, and which is as easily distinguishable as diamonds in a dunghill."
These are the views of a SLAVE MASTER! And a very piggy and bigotted one as well.
 
Adstar said:
Lawdog said:
constantine was a man engaged in a civil war whose objective was the title of Roman emperor. He was a man lusting for power and saw an unused source of power in the Christian community. He had seen "True Christians" die for their faith in Jesus and wished he had supporters with such dedication in his support. So he made up a BS story about seeing a sign in the sky from God in a desperate attempt to win over a until then large silent portion of the population. He succeeded in his political ploy and many christians abandoned their Lord Jesus to help constantine reach his objective of worldly power. These false christians where no longer willing to suffer persecution for their faith. They had had enough of waiting for their Messiah to return. So from that day on they served their new master and altered the doctrines of the Bible to suit the needs of their new master. Once they rejected the call of Jesus to Love their enemies and not to resist an evil person they where on the road to destruction, they where no longer Christians but in fact became a tool of satan to persecute true Christians.
Can you name one of these dark-minded christians? Remember, you are judging people who are not here to defend their actions.
 
They are in the service of satan. All the kingdoms of this world are in the service of satan. satan offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world if He would serve him and satan offered the kingdoms of the world to false christians if they would serve him, your predecessors did not tell satan where to go like Jesus did. satan through his worldly kings had persecuted true Christians for centuries but knew there was a better way to stop people believing Jesus. that was to create a false church who preached another jesus manned by people who where sick of the stick and where ready to accept the evil carrot.
Yet God sent his only Son INTO THE WORLD, NOT TO CONDEMN IT, but that it be be saved through him.
 
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