Can Islam and Christianity ever be reconciled ??
- Thread starter johnahmed
- Start date
Medicine Woman said:
Great..Medwoman! You believe in science more than the god??! OK.
But I have a doubt. Leaving the argument who made this unverse and all those stuff aside...tell me onething..what if the man is immortal (by virtue of your science!)?? what a man would plan if he and every other human is immortal??
Well..I also have a guess!! that man will eat man..man will kill man to prove his powers, finally one or could survive (fittest then!). But If all these could happen.. I am sure the last few men would certainly get mad and commit suicide.
Yeah..this is why I believe there is God (inventor of every scientist) out everywhere.
I have one more point. I strongly believe that there are two ways of attaining any wonderful powers. 1. thru' Spiritual powers 2. Scientific inventions. Your science could probably make the virgin mother work scientifically with perfect repeatability...fine.., for me it only sounds we are approaching towards the end of the world.
PS>> Would you also dare to claim that your scientists will be so intelligent to re-create another universe???!! for me,, your (Poor)scientists will be clever enough if they could hardly understand the nature...!!
Leo Volont
Registered Senior Member
Religions have two areas of Relevance -- in fostering Civilization, and in providing the Way toward the Path of Spirituality and Mysticism. In these regards, both Christianity and Islam have serious flaws.
Christianity, unfortunately, only uses Christ as a Figurehead, and has swept His Teachings quite into the background, while the actual Institutions of Christianity are based on Paulist Doctrines, in Protestantism more than in Catholicism, but in either case Paul seems to be more Deified than Christ. This would have been good, had Paul been good, but Paul's doctrines are for the rejection of the Law and for assured forgiveness of Sin. No Civilization can thrive where the people have the Religious Conviction that they are free to sin and will be forgiven no matter what the heck they do. Also, Paulist Christianity is entirely secular and mysticism and spirituality have largely been demonized. Protestantism has no Religious, Ascetic or Contemplative Orders. Catholicism shows some admirable distance from Paul in it Religious Orders which could not exist without thoroughly ignoring Paulist Doctrines.
Islam, though one often here's of its espousal of Universal Brotherhood, suffers most from its own divisions. And it is doctrinally polluted with too much Religious Fervor being asserted for the interests of violence. Islam had its shot at forming a Civilization. It could never support within itself the unity to collectively defend itself and thus fell time and again to successive waves of Barbarian Invasion, which we can see even today. Brothers in Islam seem rather willing to standby and watch their brothers succomb to intimidation, domination, and invasion. Where Christendom had once saved itself through the Crusades -- a Continent Unified to defend its outermost frontiers -- Islam allows itself to attacked at its very heart. Certainly they have no religious opposition to militarary defense, so it seems that internal hatreds and rivalries among the Muslims prefer Barbarian Invaders to their own 'brothers'. Apparently nothing in the Teachings of Mohamed have had the strength to overcome these divisive forces and to give cohesion to Islamic Society. A Religion which cannot unify a Civilization is not much of a Religion.
The Territories thought of as being within Islamic jurisdiction have had rather successful instances of Spirituality and Sainthood. Some Liberal Muslims claim the activists involved in these Mystical Movements as their own; however, a little research shows that all of 'Muslim Mysticism' is traceable to Zoroastrianism, an Ancient Religion whose territories Islam conquered but apparently never quite subdued. The 'Islamic' Mystics are Sufis. Sometimes tolerated by the Muslim Mullahs, they are more often accused of heresy and blasphemy. The Sufis, if they wouldn't be shot or stabbed for publically admitting it, would have no problem in confessing that they are more Zoroastrian than Islamic.
Anyway, there are strong Spiritual Traditions in Southern Europe, the former Persian and Egyptian Territories and in India. These Territories had all once been Civilized, and so the people have some experience in living and in thinking in terms of Collectivity, rather than being emotionally and tempermentally predisposed for rape and pillage for fun and profit. I lament for the former Persian Territories, however, because the successive waves of Mongol and Turk Invasion have injected them with an infusion of Barbarism at its worse, and I wonder whether what little Civilized Blood that was left could ever reassert itself in the strength required for its People to again rally for Civilization. The success Sufis have had in the area give me some hope. But to return to my point, I think a New Religion could rise up, combining the essential Elements of Messianic (as opposed to Paulist) Christianity, Zoroastrianism and Mystical/Yogic Hinduism. Marian Catholicism already indicates an evolution of Religion in that direction. Hindu Goddess Worshippers would understand Marian Worship, and the Sufi tendency for Religious Emotionalism would thrive on Marianism (The Sufis who were influenced by Marianism during their Spanish Conquest go so far as to claim that Goddess Worship was originally their idea, and they taught Catholicism to Love Mary. They are ridiculously mistaken, but their claims only show their willingness to Mary Worship.
For this New Religion to gell we just need a few more major Manifestation in the order of Fatima, Garabandal and Medjugorje. These Apparition may have been sufficient in themselves except that the Secular, Protestant, and Jewish Media Outlets were successful in burying the stories. Unfortunately, in this Modern World of Mass Communications, we still largely know only what 'they' are willing to tell us.
Christianity, unfortunately, only uses Christ as a Figurehead, and has swept His Teachings quite into the background, while the actual Institutions of Christianity are based on Paulist Doctrines, in Protestantism more than in Catholicism, but in either case Paul seems to be more Deified than Christ. This would have been good, had Paul been good, but Paul's doctrines are for the rejection of the Law and for assured forgiveness of Sin. No Civilization can thrive where the people have the Religious Conviction that they are free to sin and will be forgiven no matter what the heck they do. Also, Paulist Christianity is entirely secular and mysticism and spirituality have largely been demonized. Protestantism has no Religious, Ascetic or Contemplative Orders. Catholicism shows some admirable distance from Paul in it Religious Orders which could not exist without thoroughly ignoring Paulist Doctrines.
Islam, though one often here's of its espousal of Universal Brotherhood, suffers most from its own divisions. And it is doctrinally polluted with too much Religious Fervor being asserted for the interests of violence. Islam had its shot at forming a Civilization. It could never support within itself the unity to collectively defend itself and thus fell time and again to successive waves of Barbarian Invasion, which we can see even today. Brothers in Islam seem rather willing to standby and watch their brothers succomb to intimidation, domination, and invasion. Where Christendom had once saved itself through the Crusades -- a Continent Unified to defend its outermost frontiers -- Islam allows itself to attacked at its very heart. Certainly they have no religious opposition to militarary defense, so it seems that internal hatreds and rivalries among the Muslims prefer Barbarian Invaders to their own 'brothers'. Apparently nothing in the Teachings of Mohamed have had the strength to overcome these divisive forces and to give cohesion to Islamic Society. A Religion which cannot unify a Civilization is not much of a Religion.
The Territories thought of as being within Islamic jurisdiction have had rather successful instances of Spirituality and Sainthood. Some Liberal Muslims claim the activists involved in these Mystical Movements as their own; however, a little research shows that all of 'Muslim Mysticism' is traceable to Zoroastrianism, an Ancient Religion whose territories Islam conquered but apparently never quite subdued. The 'Islamic' Mystics are Sufis. Sometimes tolerated by the Muslim Mullahs, they are more often accused of heresy and blasphemy. The Sufis, if they wouldn't be shot or stabbed for publically admitting it, would have no problem in confessing that they are more Zoroastrian than Islamic.
Anyway, there are strong Spiritual Traditions in Southern Europe, the former Persian and Egyptian Territories and in India. These Territories had all once been Civilized, and so the people have some experience in living and in thinking in terms of Collectivity, rather than being emotionally and tempermentally predisposed for rape and pillage for fun and profit. I lament for the former Persian Territories, however, because the successive waves of Mongol and Turk Invasion have injected them with an infusion of Barbarism at its worse, and I wonder whether what little Civilized Blood that was left could ever reassert itself in the strength required for its People to again rally for Civilization. The success Sufis have had in the area give me some hope. But to return to my point, I think a New Religion could rise up, combining the essential Elements of Messianic (as opposed to Paulist) Christianity, Zoroastrianism and Mystical/Yogic Hinduism. Marian Catholicism already indicates an evolution of Religion in that direction. Hindu Goddess Worshippers would understand Marian Worship, and the Sufi tendency for Religious Emotionalism would thrive on Marianism (The Sufis who were influenced by Marianism during their Spanish Conquest go so far as to claim that Goddess Worship was originally their idea, and they taught Catholicism to Love Mary. They are ridiculously mistaken, but their claims only show their willingness to Mary Worship.
For this New Religion to gell we just need a few more major Manifestation in the order of Fatima, Garabandal and Medjugorje. These Apparition may have been sufficient in themselves except that the Secular, Protestant, and Jewish Media Outlets were successful in burying the stories. Unfortunately, in this Modern World of Mass Communications, we still largely know only what 'they' are willing to tell us.
honhaar: Great..Medwoman! You believe in science more than the god??! OK.
But I have a doubt. Leaving the argument who made this unverse and all those stuff aside...tell me onething..what if the man is immortal (by virtue of your science!)?? what a man would plan if he and every other human is immortal??
*************
M*W: Welcome to sciforums honhaar. I will try to answer your questions. Yes, I do believe in science and not in a supernatural god. Who created the universe and everything inside? It was all created by energy -- pure, positive energy -- and we are still rippling from its effect. It's a process, not a single action. When science has perfected immortality (and, yes, it will be science and not some dying demigod savior), there will, of course, be no disease or crime because the human race will have reached final evolvement toward the race of homo spiritus. Your scenario of what man would do to man if they were immortal may make an interesting sci-fi read, but if humanity was evolved to the extent of immortality, where would the conflict be? My whole point is that I see humanity evolving toward immortality. Will humans have a physical body? I don't know. If a physical body is present, as it is today but immortal, I see a total blending of the races and genders -- one human form for everyone who exists at that time. I see death being conquered, so therefore no illnesses within the race. There will be one androgynous gender, so reproduction of the human kind will cease to exist as we know it. Any reproduction that is desired will come from cloning.
*************
honhaar: Well..I also have a guess!! that man will eat man..man will kill man to prove his powers, finally one or could survive (fittest then!). But If all these could happen.. I am sure the last few men would certainly get mad and commit suicide.
*************
M*W: I see just the opposite. Should immortality exist, man wouldn't "eat man." Man would have no need to "kill man." Powers would be equal, and the spiritual energy filling humanity would be the power that drives the human being. Everything humanity needs would be available to everyone. I see a totally altruistic race of people. No god will be needed, because the human race has evolved to be God.
*************
honhaar: Yeah..this is why I believe there is God (inventor of every scientist) out everywhere.
I have one more point. I strongly believe that there are two ways of attaining any wonderful powers. 1. thru' Spiritual powers 2. Scientific inventions. Your science could probably make the virgin mother work scientifically with perfect repeatability... fine.., for me it only sounds we are approaching towards the end of the world.
*************
M*W: Actually, I believe there will be no such thing as a "virgin mother." Or, maybe, everyone would be considered to be "virgin." Life will be uniform and unified. I don't see immortal life as being the "end of the world," I see it as the beginning.
*************
honhaar: PS>> Would you also dare to claim that your scientists will be so intelligent to re-create another universe???!! for me,, your (Poor)scientists will be clever enough if they could hardly understand the nature...!!
*************
M*W: There would be no need to re-create another universe. If we evolve enough to experience immortality, why would there be a need for any other universe?
But I have a doubt. Leaving the argument who made this unverse and all those stuff aside...tell me onething..what if the man is immortal (by virtue of your science!)?? what a man would plan if he and every other human is immortal??
*************
M*W: Welcome to sciforums honhaar. I will try to answer your questions. Yes, I do believe in science and not in a supernatural god. Who created the universe and everything inside? It was all created by energy -- pure, positive energy -- and we are still rippling from its effect. It's a process, not a single action. When science has perfected immortality (and, yes, it will be science and not some dying demigod savior), there will, of course, be no disease or crime because the human race will have reached final evolvement toward the race of homo spiritus. Your scenario of what man would do to man if they were immortal may make an interesting sci-fi read, but if humanity was evolved to the extent of immortality, where would the conflict be? My whole point is that I see humanity evolving toward immortality. Will humans have a physical body? I don't know. If a physical body is present, as it is today but immortal, I see a total blending of the races and genders -- one human form for everyone who exists at that time. I see death being conquered, so therefore no illnesses within the race. There will be one androgynous gender, so reproduction of the human kind will cease to exist as we know it. Any reproduction that is desired will come from cloning.
*************
honhaar: Well..I also have a guess!! that man will eat man..man will kill man to prove his powers, finally one or could survive (fittest then!). But If all these could happen.. I am sure the last few men would certainly get mad and commit suicide.
*************
M*W: I see just the opposite. Should immortality exist, man wouldn't "eat man." Man would have no need to "kill man." Powers would be equal, and the spiritual energy filling humanity would be the power that drives the human being. Everything humanity needs would be available to everyone. I see a totally altruistic race of people. No god will be needed, because the human race has evolved to be God.
*************
honhaar: Yeah..this is why I believe there is God (inventor of every scientist) out everywhere.
I have one more point. I strongly believe that there are two ways of attaining any wonderful powers. 1. thru' Spiritual powers 2. Scientific inventions. Your science could probably make the virgin mother work scientifically with perfect repeatability... fine.., for me it only sounds we are approaching towards the end of the world.
*************
M*W: Actually, I believe there will be no such thing as a "virgin mother." Or, maybe, everyone would be considered to be "virgin." Life will be uniform and unified. I don't see immortal life as being the "end of the world," I see it as the beginning.
*************
honhaar: PS>> Would you also dare to claim that your scientists will be so intelligent to re-create another universe???!! for me,, your (Poor)scientists will be clever enough if they could hardly understand the nature...!!
*************
M*W: There would be no need to re-create another universe. If we evolve enough to experience immortality, why would there be a need for any other universe?