Can Islam and Christianity ever be reconciled ??

J

johnahmed

Registered Senior Member
can these 2 Titans ever be reconciled ? Muslims see Islam as continuing what Christ and prior Abraham started. In Islam Jesus is the Prophet of GOD,not a begotten son,God judges people according to there actions and faith, and not Race (with reference to jews)
in Islam,muhammed is the last of the Prophets. to christians God sent prophets,then decided to take a "dive" him self impregnating him self into a human mary
The race between Islam and christianty is on,both are competing on the world front for new believers.. the question is, what are we fighting for ?
 
johnahmed: can these 2 Titans ever be reconciled ? Muslims see Islam as continuing what Christ and prior Abraham started. In Islam Jesus is the Prophet of GOD,not a begotten son,God judges people according to there actions and faith, and not Race (with reference to jews)
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M*W: Welcome to the wonderful and strange world of sciforums. You made an interesting statement:

"Muslims see Islam as continuing what Christ and prior Abraham started."

I'm neither Muslim nor christian, but I have many friends who are both. As many intense discussions as we've had about these two religions, nowhere have I heard that Islam is a continuation of what Jesus and Abraham started. Abraham, yes. Jesus, no. To Muslims, Jesus was a Jewish prophet and teacher (rabbi). Could you explain what you meant by that statement?
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johnahmed: in Islam,muhammed is the last of the Prophets. to christians God sent prophets,then decided to take a "dive" him self impregnating him self into a human mary
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M*W: Christianity today is in a massive mudslide. In other words, christianity has lost its 'foothold' on the ivory tower while Islam is increasing its populace at about the same rate christianity is falling. Some current biblical scholars including Dominic Crossan, et al., believe that christian leaders need to rethink their position on the virgin birth concept. In this day and time, adherents want scientific facts and not pagan-derived fantasies. Crossan also says that the idea of the resurrection is also too passe. Whether the scholars will have any influence on the church leaders remains to be seen, the whole idea of christianity and everything it stands for is based on one thing -- no, not the birth, death and resurrection of their savior -- but the empty tombs of coffers in their churches.
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johnahmed: The race between Islam and christianty is on,both are competing on the world front for new believers.. the question is, what are we fighting for ?
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M*W: One would hope the competition would be about truth, justice and the American way, but its not. It never was, and it will never be. Do we honestly think the hierarchy of church leaders really care about their congregations' salvation? Hell,no! All they care about is passing the plate for their own $alvation.
 
Compare the two religions:

Christianity: The old testament remains valid, and all the OT prophets were correct as originally written in Hebrew.

My observation: All the old testament prophets are correctly stated? -- wow that's a lot of witnesses!

Islam: The jews allowed the old testament to be corrupted and it is not usable. Mohammed is the only true venue from the time of Moses.

My observation: So God's word can be corrupted by man -- interesting. God gave his word but did not care to preserve it. Only one man gets to tell us about it - Mohammed. What about the dead sea scrolls?

Christianity: Jesus (who was without sin) was resurrected from the dead, after he died a substitutionary death for all of mankind. He is the only person that never sinned, and is believed to be diety before the universe was created.

My observation: Can anyone find something wrong with Jesus? Can anyone show me someone today that has never sinned?

Islam: Jesus was only a prophet (the Jews believe this too). Jesus did not die on the cross because he did not deserve it.

My observation: What about all the eyewitness accounts that saw Jesus crucified -- Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, James, Peter, and many more. They wrote their testimony in the New Testament. If Jesus is a prophet then why don't jews and muslims believe what he said?

Christianity: All the good works in the world do not offset one bad work. Example: I give everything I have to help the poor, I never break the law, but I killed someone -- How can I ever pay for this? My good works do not bring the dead person back to life. I need a savior that can forgive my bad work.

Islam: God weighs the good works against the bad, and the works tilt the scale to heaven or hell.

My observation: How does a righteous God forgo a bad work? Do the good works really offset a bad work? If this argument doesn't work in a courtroom should it work in heaven? Example: Joe was such a good citizen but he did just one bad thing when he murdered someone. Would a righteous judge even consider this argument before sentencing?

:confused:

I have been wanting to get a better understanding of Islam. Are these statements correct about Islam?

;)
 
Can Islam and Christianity ever be reconciled ??
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No.. If Christianity reconciles itself to islam then it will acknowledge Jesus as just a man. in doing so Christianity will cease to exist. If islam reconciles itself to Christianity it will acknowledge Jesus's divinity and therefore declare muhammed to be a liar and cease to exist.

Only one of the two can claim to be true.



The race between Islam and christianity is on,both are competing on the world front for new believers.. the question is, what are we fighting for ?
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The contest is within the hearts and minds of each individual who seeks God.

As for "fighting" if you mean Combat/War then we are not fighting because Christians do not take part in combat/War. Maybe a better word would be contesting. We are in contest over the eternal destination of all those we are giving our message too.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
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Medicine Woman,

Concerning the virgin birth phenomena -- it is documented scientific fact that virgin births occur, though they are rare. This is a help for evolutionary theory -- ie that a female animal or human can occasionally reproduce without a sex partner. You need to look it up in a modern biology text. You will find it near the section on hemaphrodites (both male and female genetalia). I was reading on this subject just the other day, because I wondered if a hemaphrodite could reproduce. Typically a hemaphrodite can reproduce as a female.

However, the virgin birth of Christ is believed to come from a supernatural phenomena rather than a freakish morphism.
 
My observation: What about all the eyewitness accounts that saw Jesus crucified -- Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, James, Peter, and many more. They wrote their testimony in the New Testament. If Jesus is a prophet then why don't jews and muslims believe what he said?
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"At that time Jesus said to the crowd, "Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? Every day I sat in the temple courts teaching, and you did not arrest me. But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled." Then all the disciples deserted him and fled. (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 26:55-56)"

"Every day I was with you, teaching in the temple courts, and you did not arrest me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled." Then everyone deserted him and fled. (From the NIV Bible, Mark 14:49-50)"

As we can see, they "all fled" and "deserted" Jesus. They fled because they feared for their lives. The only POSSIBLE one that might have saw the crucifixion was Peter, because he followed Jesus and later disowned him 3 times when he was confronted by the people on whether or not he was with him:

Matthew 26

33 Peter replied, "Even if all fall away on account of you, I never will."
34 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times."
35 But Peter declared, "Even if I have to die with you, I will never disown you." And all the other disciples said the same.

........

Matthew 26

74 Then he began to call down curses on himself and he swore to them, "I don't know the man!"
75 Immediately a rooster crowed. Then Peter remembered the word Jesus had spoken: "Before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times." And he went outside and wept bitterly.





Islam: The jews allowed the old testament to be corrupted and it is not usable. Mohammed is the only true venue from the time of Moses.
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I'm not quite sure what you mean by this :confused: there were other Prophets between Moses(pbuh) and Muhammad(pbuh) in Islam



But everything else you said seems more or less correct(at least to me ;) ) :m:
 
Woody: Medicine Woman,

Concerning the virgin birth phenomena -- it is documented scientific fact that virgin births occur, though they are rare. This is a help for evolutionary theory -- ie that a female animal or human can occasionally reproduce without a sex partner. You need to look it up in a modern biology text. You will find it near the section on hemaphrodites (both male and female genetalia). I was reading on this subject just the other day, because I wondered if a hemaphrodite could reproduce. Typically a hemaphrodite can reproduce as a female.
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M*W: Welcome to sciforums, Woody. Yes, I am aware that 'virgin' births are extremely rare in humans but have been known to occur. I don't think I will bother looking it up in a modern biology text, however, because I have written or edited many medical textbooks on the subject.

Regarding the 'virgin birth' of Jesus' mother, there is a problem with semantics. Mary was around the age of 13 years when she found herself pregnant with Jesus. The term 'virgin' or 'almah' simply means 'young woman.' It has nothing to do with whether she had had sexual relations or not! She was betrothed according to Jewish Law, and sexual relations were permitted during betrothal. That doesn't make her a sinner or a harlot. She may have had other children with Joseph. This misconception was translated incorrectly, and the early church fathers included this pagan belief in christian doctrine. Many of the world's great 25 or so saviors were all born of 'virgins.' Interestingly, they also died for mankind and were resurrected like Jesus.
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Woody: However, the virgin birth of Christ is believed to come from a supernatural phenomena rather than a freakish morphism.
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M*W: When you say 'supernatural,' what exactly do you mean? When Jesus was born of Mary, he came out of her birth canal as usual, did he not? Even after giving birth to Jesus, Mary was still considered to be an 'almah' or 'young woman.' More technically correct, Mary would then be a 'parthenos,' a woman who has given birth. A married woman was called a 'bethula.'(sp)

You might want to go into the archives. We've had several good threads on this subject.
 
"At that time Jesus said to the crowd, "Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? Every day I sat in the temple courts teaching, and you did not arrest me. But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled." Then all the disciples deserted him and fled. (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 26:55-56)"
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Yes they fled but they did not flee Jerusalem. Many of them blended in with the crowd that witnessed His execution.

John 19
25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, "Woman, behold your son!" 27 Then He said to the disciple, "Behold your mother!" And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Hello Medicine Gal,

I have many "medicine men" in my family. Both my grandfathers were medical doctors. I have three uncles that were doctors and one that is a dentist (That takes care of all the unks). I have three cousins that are doctors. My father was an orthodontist, and one of my brothers is a dentist. My only brother in law is a doctor. I'm just a lowly mechanical engineer -- so I am not qualified to make a medical call on parthenogenesis, but I'll match logic whits with just about anyone.

You asked a question about asexual reproduction in a human, in particular, Mary -- concerning the virgin conception and birth. Biblically the Holy Ghost (spirit of God) caused the conception to happen. There was not a sexual act involved. The resulting product was a hybrid between God and man, or God-man as it were. The God-man (Jesus) had the body of a man and the spirit of God within it. So Jesus took on mortality, and would have eventually died anyway from old age if from no other cause.

This brings me to another question about evolution: Why do all plants and animals age after they mature? If only one plant or animal species could overcome the genetic weakness that causes aging, that species would reign. Of course they could die of other causes like diseases, accidents, or preditors. What useful purpose does aging serve in the evolutionary scheme of things?
 
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Adstar said:
Yes they fled but they did not flee Jerusalem. Many of them blended in with the crowd that witnessed His execution.

John 19
25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, "Woman, behold your son!" 27 Then He said to the disciple, "Behold your mother!" And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days
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Hi Adstar,

Where does it say that they blended into the crowd and witnessed the crucifixtion?.....thanks for your reply :m:
 
Was not Peter following Jesus after the arrest? ..and then and there he disowned Jesus just out of fear.
 
Jesus told all his disciples he was going to be crucified and rise the third day. Even the pharisees were aware of this prophesy, and they had Pilate set a watch (typically about 12 roman guards) over the tomb where Jesus was buried and sealed it with Ceasar's seal. To break Ceasar's seal is punishable by death. When Jesus was resurrected from the dead, the roman soldiers feared for their lives. The pharisees in true character told them to lie about the body of Jesus, and they (pharisees) would cover for them (the lazy guards). It is not written in the Bible concerning the fate of the guards, but with the roman law and the "cover-up" nature of the pharisees the consequence is easy to figure out. With the guards dead the roman law is fulfilled and the pharisees have dead eyewitnesses. Note that when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, the first thing the pharisees did was try to put him to death so he would be silenced.

Does this make Jesus a liar, when he said he was going to die and would be raised the third day?

Mark 8

27 And Jesus went out, and his disciples, into the towns of Caesarea Philippi: and by the way he asked his disciples, saying unto them, Whom do men say that I am?

28 And they answered, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others, One of the prophets.

29
And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.

30 And he charged them that they should tell no man of him.

31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
 
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Not really... Though Christ never "directly" said he raise from the dead. He said he would rebuild...God i forgot what it was,but it was something about rebuidling temple/kingdom or something.

Course i dont think that really helped at all. Sorry.
 
surenderer said:
Hi Adstar,

Where does it say that they blended into the crowd and witnessed the crucifixtion?.....thanks for your reply :m:
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Did you read the scripture i provided? it says that at least one disciple was near enough to Jesus while He was Being executed to hear Him talk.

Now as for blending. I am sure they did not stand out in the crowd and publicize the fact that they where followers of Jesus, i’m sure they would have been strung up with him if they did that.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
camphlps said:
Not really... Though Christ never "directly" said he raise from the dead. He said he would rebuild...God i forgot what it was,but it was something about rebuidling temple/kingdom or something.

Course i dont think that really helped at all. Sorry.
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Matthew 20
17 Now Jesus, going up to Jerusalem, took the twelve disciples aside on the road and said to them, 18 "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death, 19 "and deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day He will rise again."

All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
juadic-christianity, and islam all come from the same abrahamic ROOTS

it is a ptriarchal root and is oppressive

people in this branches of the patriarchy not being aware, or unconscious Of this oppression, do not all get togther and rebel agains thhis oppression, but rather scapegoat others...people, and other bracnhes, and others of other groups they dont agree with

so no, until this is realized deeply, there will always be conflict between groups where the individuals are disempowerd by Big Brother in the sky
 
forgot to add an important point

that this scapegoating is enginEERED BY the power structure of the patriarchy. it is called Divide and Rule/Conquer, and means that the prevailing patriarchy can maintain its oppressive power system as long as its factions are in conflict/divided against each other
 
Adstar said:
Did you read the scripture i provided? it says that at least one disciple was near enough to Jesus while He was Being executed to hear Him talk.

Now as for blending. I am sure they did not stand out in the crowd and publicize the fact that they where followers of Jesus, i’m sure they would have been strung up with him if they did that.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days
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Adstar,

Yes I read what you wrote but I already wrote that Peter was probably there....but is that the only disciple the Bible mentions being there? I was wondering perhaps if another book of the Bible (John, Acts, etc...) mentioned any other disciples being present.Peace to you :m:
 
Woody: Hello Medicine Gal,

You asked a question about asexual reproduction in a human, in particular, Mary -- concerning the virgin conception and birth. Biblically the Holy Ghost (spirit of God) caused the conception to happen. There was not a sexual act involved. The resulting product was a hybrid between God and man, or God-man as it were. The God-man (Jesus) had the body of a man and the spirit of God within it. So Jesus took on mortality, and would have eventually died anyway from old age if from no other cause.
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M*W: Hello, Woody. If I did ask a question about Jesus' conception, it was rhetorical. I'm quite aware of what xians believe, having been a former xian myself. I don't believe what is written in the bible, especially the NT. I still believe Jesus existed as a Jewish Rabbi, but he was definitely not a dying demigod savior. Everything written about Jesus in the NT is lie. It's a false religion. Have you ever read anything about Mithras, Adonis, Dionysus, Attis, Apollo, Buddha, etc.? There are just too many similiarities between Jesus and the 16-25 earlier dying demigod saviors of the world. I believe Jesus lived to a ripe old age with his wife, Mary Magdalen, and their kids. Of course, all the information about this was suppressed from being included in the NT.
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Woody: This brings me to another question about evolution: Why do all plants and animals age after they mature? If only one plant or animal species could overcome the genetic weakness that causes aging, that species would reign. Of course they could die of other causes like diseases, accidents, or preditors. What useful purpose does aging serve in the evolutionary scheme of things?
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M*W: Humanity is on the forefront of conquering aging. In the next couple of decades, stem cells will be widely used to turn back the time on aging. Stem cell implants into the face eliminates plastic surgery. Same goes for teeth grown from stem cells implanted into the gums. Broken bones will be repaired with stem cells. Gradually with the introduction of bone marrow stem cells (not embryonic), we will be able to increase the length of telomeres which are indicative of longevity. Humanity will reach a point, and I feel it will be within our lifetime, to halt aging and produce longevity to where we will have a lifespan of 120 years or so in the not too distant future. That would make humanity immortal in a very short time span. Who needs a god when we have science?
 
surenderer said:
Adstar,

Yes I read what you wrote but I already wrote that Peter was probably there....but is that the only disciple the Bible mentions being there? I was wondering perhaps if another book of the Bible (John, Acts, etc...) mentioned any other disciples being present.Peace to you :m:
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As far as i know the only deciple mentioned was the one mentioned in the scriptures i provided.

All praise The Ancient of Days
 
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