Burkha in school

Robban

Registered Senior Member
Recently in Sweden the ministry of education has decided to not accept burkha in school.

The reason for this is that to be able to perform a pedagogic work you need to see the pupils face and you need to know (on examination for instance) that the person is the right person.

Obviously the islamic community rages over this and claim sweden goes against the UN´s declaration of human rights because of intolerance on religious performance.

Now to the question: Is Burhka really an act of religion? Is there anything in the Kouran that say to be a righious muslim you need to cover you face in total if you are a woman (with a Burhka)?

I would say NO to these questions and say this is just a matter of traditions and has nothing to do with freedom of religion.

What do you muslims say about this?
 
Dear friend:

Thank you and THANKS to Sweden for passing this law, no my friend, the muslim world was not enraged by this decision, in fact, I am very pleased and proud of Sweden, I am proud Muslim too.

Sweden has been always a beacon of tolerance towards minorities and specially muslims, sadly, some ignorant pathetic muslims decided to go very far by trying to behave as if they are in their own countries, which is pathetic really.

The BURKA is not MUST in Islam, there is nothing in the Quran or the Hadith ( the sayings of the prophet ) that talks about BURKA.

those extremists use this verse from the Quran to justify the burka, let us read it:

The Noble Quran 24:31:

'' And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, AND TO DRAW THEIR VEILS OVER THEIR BOSOMS, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women....''

Two things are noteworthy about Quran 24:30 and 31.

(1) In Quran 24:30, MEN are directed to "lower their gaze"! If face veils for women were MANDATORY why would this direction even be necessary?

(2) Quran 24:31 only tells women to cover "their BOSOMS." Nothing whatever is said about the HEAD - let alone the FACE!


Similar comments can be made concerning Quran 33:59 - often cited as an alternative authority for mandatory veiling:

'' O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they LET DOWN UPON THEM THEIR OVER-GARMENTS; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful''

This passage says nothing about covering the FACE ........

The truth is the niqab is NOT an Islamic institution, This was the opinion of Quran translator Marmduke Pickthall:

"THE VEILING OF THE FACE BY WOMEN WAS NOT ORIGINALLY AN ISLAMIC CUSTOM. It was prevalent in many cities of the East before the coming of Islam, but not in the cities of Arabia. The purdah system, as it now exists in India, was quite undreamt of by the Muslims in the early centuries, who had adopted the face-veil and some other fashions for their women when they entered the cities of Syria, Mesopotamia, Persia and Egypt. It was once a concession to the prevailing custom and was a protection to their women from misunderstanding by peoples accustomed to associate unveiled faces with loose character. Later on it was adopted even in the cities of Arabia as a mark of [tamaddun] a word generally translated as 'civilization', but which in Arabic still retains a stronger flavour of its root meaning 'townsmanship' that is carried by the English word. IT HAS NEVER BEEN A UNIVERSAL CUSTOM FOR MUSLIM WOMEN, the great majority of whom have never used it, since the majority of the Muslim women in the world are peasants who work with their husbands and brothers in the fields. For them the face-veil would be an absurd encumbrance. . . .

Finally, if muslim women are not required to cover their faces in HAJ (Pilgrimge to Mecca ) how come they are required to do so elsewhere ???

Conclusion, the burka is UGLY invention by some extremists which has nothing to do with islam, the standard dress for muslim women as ordered by the Quran and the sayings of the prophet is to cover her HAIR and to be modest, like this European sister who converted to Islam :

Candice%20Vancraenenbroek.jpg
 
thank you

Thank you for your reply!

Is this an oppinion you other muslims on this forum share?
 
I completely agree under even the most literal/direct/strict interpertation you cannot find anything in the Qu'ran that indicates requirement of Niqaab .

I also agree with the Swedish ministry of education , it is common knowledge within pedagogy that you need interaction with the child and the expressions on his face are of the highest importance .

Also for the child , segregation between that what he shows others through words and the facial expressions that he/she can hide through the veil , a far greater potential for dishonesty is created this way .

all that is left is tradition ......... or is it ? Ironically enough those who carry the culture from which Islam emerged have traditions that hold a very different purpose for covering of the face .

such as

and
 
Last edited:
Actually, I'm wondering why religions go as far as messing around with privately chosen lifestyle, such as what to eat, what to wear, what to talk about......
Okay, I agree that religion may have the rules of what not to do, such as murdering etc, but that's all I'll assume....
I think I'm really going to go atheist..... but I'm not sure...
 
Re: thank you

Originally posted by Robban
Thank you for your reply!

I agree totally with everything that proud have stated. Please note that Proud Syrian like other Muslims is trying to do his best in understanding the Quran for himself and his household, and he never judged other women for their choices.

We muslims believe that we were all created by a One god who is not personal but universal and is the power behind all creation. Because of this, we believe that the same god that created us have our manuals and know what is good and bad for us. We don't believe in TOTALLY living our lives in a trial and error mode to figure out what is good and evil for us. This is simply foolish. We don't want to become alcoholics or screw up our health in the name of experimenting with ourselves. We women don't want to be raped or placed under wrong environments because we chose to defy god's instruction to lower our gaze and be modest. We like to follow god's instructions because we believe god knows what is best for us. We don't have to become addicted to gambling and ruin our lives just to believe that god was correct to warn the human species of the danger of gambling.

I laugh sometimes at christians who give their testimonies about how they reached god. They all tell the same thing on how their life went wrong because they didn't know god, and how now they are saved. They tell us how they used to be alcoholics, drug dealers, beat their moms, ect.....Well, if they trusted the manual from day one, none of this would have happened. We don't need to be vocal about our conversions and how religious we are, we simply need to view god's commandment because they are essential to our lives.
 
Re: Re: thank you

Originally posted by Flores
We muslims believe that we were all created by a One god who is not personal but universal and is the power behind all creation.
----------
M*W: Flores, this is powerful!
----------
I laugh sometimes at christians who give their testimonies about how they reached god. They all tell the same thing on how their life went wrong because they didn't know god, and how now they are saved. They tell us how they used to be alcoholics, drug dealers, beat their moms, ect.....Well, if they trusted the manual from day one, none of this would have happened. We don't need to be vocal about our conversions and how religious we are, we simply need to view god's commandment because they are essential to our lives.
----------
M*W: Flores, regardless of Jenyar's imaginary fixation, what you say, I believe. I've never understood why xians endeavor to "reach God." That's beyond my comprehension. God is always there from beyond the beginning to beyond the end--the "alpha and omega" of the One Spirit of Allah. You know, I don't even like the name "God." It's an Anglicized word, a contraction of "good." Allah is more powerful. I shall stop using the word God and start using the name Allah from now on. And you're right again. We DON'T need to be vocal about our conversions and how religious we are. All we need to do is believe we are the living commandment of Allah's word. xians need to wear Jesus on their shoulders, and they need to broadcast their salvation to the world. They need to thump their Bibles like magick tricks, and they need to believe in the Emperor's New Clothes. Shakespeare couldn't have said it better, "...she doth protest too much." They talk the talk, but they don't walk the walk. You know why? They're trying to prove to themselves that their lowly asses are saved. They do not know Allah.
 
Originally posted by curioucity
Actually, I'm wondering why religions go as far as messing around with privately chosen lifestyle, such as what to eat, what to wear, what to talk about......
Perhaps you should understand that as far as Islam is concerned , it is not a religion . The word that describes Islam in Arabic is Deen and such does not equate to religion . Yes it can contain the attributes that the defintion of religion uses but that is not where it begins nor ends . Islam is a total and complete way and system of life and understanding , ofcourse it is up to each Muslim himself to decide in how far/in what way Islam influences his life , but the basic issue here at hand is that the privatly chosen lifestyle is exactly that what Islam is .

And clearly within a way of life , personal issues are very relevant are they not ?
 
Give me more of your opinion on other 'religions' (they start to become blurry to me). Only after that I may consider a different comment. But anyway, I assume you would need help from 'religion researchers', don't you agree?
 
Originally posted by curioucity
Give me more of your opinion on other 'religions' (they start to become blurry to me). Only after that I may consider a different comment. But anyway, I assume you would need help from 'religion researchers', don't you agree?

Not really , I would need help from those who are scholared within their own system/religion/philosophy whatever it is that they would call it by . When I desire infrmation on Buddhism I conversate with a Buddhist , when I desire information on Shintoism I conversate with a Shintoist . If I desire information of human kind and their ways of living in general I conversate with an anthropologist , not some "religious researchers" ..... sounds like some amateur born again club to me .......

Perhaps you might understand me a little bit better , religion is an english word and the defintion is restricted to the phenomenas that emmerged in Europe/West known as religions . In both Hebrew and Arabic the word does not exist .

You mention food : How can you ask a Hindu or a Buddhist to forget about the vegetarian crap and just worship whatever he/she worships ? You then completely mis-judge the relevance of these issues within their respective philosophies , based on a defintion that has nothing to do with it .

You ought to understand that the defintion of religion is based on certain characteristics that were noticed in Europe , by claling anything that has no European/Western identity as religion means that you define it by those same characteristics .

Perhaps within those characteristics you may have a point , why should all those rules go with that ? But as all the other "religions" in the world are not defined by these characteristics , it makes no sense whatsoever to say that something shouldnt go with it because of how a religion ought to be .
 
Well, if I were too specific, I apologize. Maybe I need to be a bit more ignorant on that, what do you say?
 
You havent been over-specific and a little less ignorant would be an improvement .

Did you even get the point ? I doubt it .....
 
Ghassan,

This has already been discussed at length – Islam is a religion whether you choose to believe it or not.

Religion: A strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny.

Deen: A submission, following and worship by man for the creator, the ruler, the subjugator in a comprehensive system of life with all its belief, intellectual, moral and practical aspects.

Allah subjugated people to obey. Subjugated here is a literal translation of the verb of the word deen.


Subjugate: Put down by force or intimidation - make subservient; force to submit.

The only difference I can see here is that Islam forces or intimidates one to obey their gods.

The rulership and the authority belong to Allah (S.W.T.).
The obedience and submission to this rulership and authority by those who embraced this deen.

The comprehensive system (intellectual and practical) established by this authority (Allah).

The reward given by this authority (Allah) to those that followed the system and submitted to it and the punishment inflicted upon those who rebel against it and disobey it.

… this system is based on total submission to Allah (S.W.T.) alone and no one else and purifying worship to Him...

http://www.islam1.org/khutub/Defn__of_Deen_&_Islam.htm


This so-called ‘life system’ offers no choices and no life oriented advice whatsoever. It simply states to follow Allah or else… punishment.

Perhaps you are right, Islam is not a religion - it is slavery and condemnation.
 
Man you didnt even adress to anything I said ..........

Fine with me

But now you have the impression that im willing to explain you excatly what you are talking about , and why your conclusions are not correct or relevant ?

I don't think so

Bye
 
Last edited:
Ghassan
Sorry if I start involving my character, but when I start to pay attention to something, I tend to hunt down the flaws, so maybe by a bit more ignorant I may stop complaining....
 
Originally posted by Robban
Recently in Sweden the ministry of education has decided to not accept burkha in school.

The reason for this is that to be able to perform a pedagogic work you need to see the pupils face and you need to know (on examination for instance) that the person is the right person.

Obviously the islamic community rages over this and claim sweden goes against the UN´s declaration of human rights because of intolerance on religious performance.

Now to the question: Is Burhka really an act of religion? Is there anything in the Kouran that say to be a righious muslim you need to cover you face in total if you are a woman (with a Burhka)?

I would say NO to these questions and say this is just a matter of traditions and has nothing to do with freedom of religion.

What do you muslims say about this?

I speaked to someone about that today and they said you can wear the burkha in school. However, the school has the right to ban them if the children refuses to cooperate and compromise.

Removing of the burkha duing a speech can be good since you'll be able to hear the person better and will create a more mental barrier between the audience and the speaker.
 
fine then Ghassan

Next time remind me not to post about critical issues like this one, lest I'll mess up the whole discussion.....
 
I've had an islamic upbringing and have always struggled with the fact that most muslims can't agree to what is appropriate clothing for women. My mum wears a hijab much like the one in the picture from Syrian but some of her friends cover up even more whilst some didn't even wear a mehirma.

Can I ask the muslims here what they would consider as appropriate clothing just out of curiousity?
 
Back
Top