Bullfighting...a little payback

[John99]

I agree with you horsebox. I dont watch animals suffering, on the other hand in many cases animals are also predators themselves and therefore inflict suffering on living creatures.

 

[wsionynw]

I agree with you horsebox. I dont watch animals suffering, on the other hand in many cases animals are also predators themselves and therefore inflict suffering on living creatures.

Animals do it for survial, not to entertain crowds of assholes.

 

[iceaura]

Animals enjoy what they do. They aren't acting with regret, out of rational calculation of necessity.

You can try to disguise it with words anyway you want, it's still horrible animal abuse.

Disguise? I'm describing. Where is the virtue in ignorance, the moral high ground in failure to comprehend?

I'm no sadist but i do like seeing bullfighters get whats coming to them. In this case a bull haha.

In the OP?

This is puzzling, these perceptions of "payback" in the OP picture. The impression delivered is that a lot of people have very little experience with large animals.

 

[Enmos]

Animals enjoy what they do. They aren't acting with regret, out of rational calculation of necessity.

I'm pretty sure the bull wasn't attacking (defending) because he was enjoying himself.

Disguise? I'm describing. Where is the virtue in ignorance, the moral high ground in failure to comprehend?

What's to comprehend? An animal is effectively being tortured to death before a cheering audience. I don't care what culture or philosophy is behind it.

 

[iceaura]

I'm pretty sure the bull wasn't attacking (defending) because he was enjoying himself.

I doubt you have the slightest idea what bulls enjoy.

What's to comprehend? An animal is effectively being tortured to death before a cheering audience. I don't care what culture or philosophy is behind it.

Not in the OP.

And not in the Spanish bullfight you have fastened on to object to.

But you don't care about that either, right? You don't need to comprehend, before condemning. In fact, your ignorance and incomprehension are actual justifications - proof of your moral superiority.

 

[Enmos]

I doubt you have the slightest idea what bulls enjoy.

It is you that claims to know what bulls enjoy.

Not in the OP.

And not in the Spanish bullfight you have fastened on to object to.

But you don't care about that either, right? You don't need to comprehend, before condemning. In fact, your ignorance and incomprehension are actual justifications - proof of your moral superiority.

lol
Indeed, I don't need to know why a murderer murders to know it's wrong.
And I don't see how your statement doesn't include the example from the OP since you indicated Spanish bullfights, which is what the one in the OP is.

 

[milkweed]

Just wondering, has anyone out there actually been to a live bullfight and if so what did you make of it? I can't figure what the appeal is, other than taking some strange joy in watching an animal tortured?

I went to a bullfight in mexico in the mid 80s. I wasnt going to as I dont support the idea of bullfighting, but I wanted to see for myself what exactly goes on. Is it as bad as is claimed by the anti-bullfighting side?

They killed three bulls that day. Its not pleasant. There was an older couple sitting by us who explained the events as they were unfolding. I appreciated their input at the time, it helped me understand what was unfolding. The lady told me they go to the fights in support of the mexican people. Its their culture, who am I to judge type of attitude. Her husband seemed to enjoy it.

I cant remember the order of events (25 years ago), there is the horse people who come in and stab the bull in the shoulders. The bull is very confused by the whole event and reacts to each stab, obviously out of pain. I watch one horse get butted in the side and lifted off its feet. You could see the wind being knocked out of the horse. The horse wears padding (looks like a thick blanket), that I assume helps keep the horse from being punctured. I cant remember if its one or two people on horses who do this.

There are guys who stab the bull, again in the shoulders with 3 foot long spear like sticks. The sticks usually stay in the animal, hanging off the side. 3 guys do this, one at a time, with one stick in each hand, so there is a total of 6 stabs.

By the time these two events are done, blood is covering the shoulders of the animal and it has weakened some, from the activity, and probably the blood loss/muscle damage. I watched each of these bulls go through various reactions from anger, to fight for its life, to giving up, and even having to be tormented back into a fight mood.

Then the matador comes in and teases the bull, getting him to chase the cape. A good matador will take the bull down with one stroke and that is the goal. When it works, the animal drops, its spine severed and hopefully the jugular vein bleeding them out. On this day only one matador managed to get that right. The other two needed a second, or third shot and one of the bulls had to be dispatched by the people who drag the bulls body out via cutting its jugular. The crowd boo'd both of these matadors. When people did not do their part in the ring correctly, the crowd insulted them, laughed at them and jeered them. One bull was very tough and the crowd was on the bulls side, cheering each time he humilated his oppressor/attacker. This bull also managed to get the cape from the matador, which seemed to endear the crowd even more. There was a momentary air of crowd disappointment when that bull was dispatched, but that was quickly put aside for the "look, man is victorious over bull" underpinning of the event.

I went to this trying to keep an open mind, ie, maybe the reports exaggerate the situation, what do I know about their culture. I left the fight with the opinion, that even if the reports are exagerated, it is unnecessarily cruel to torment an animal in this way, to the death, for a sideshow event.

Were I to return to Mexico, or go to spain or any other bullfighting culture, I would not return to the event. I have seen it, and I dont like it.

 

[iceaura]

But you don't care about that either, right? You don't need to comprehend, before condemning. In fact, your ignorance and incomprehension are actual justifications - proof of your moral superiority.
”
lol
Indeed, I don't need to know why a murderer murders to know it's wrong.

But you do need to know why someone kills another to call it murder, I hope.

Matadors in the Spanish bullfight are gored frequently - much more often than principals in the nonlethal forms of bullfighting. The most common goring is in the groin, often involving rapid loss of blood from the femoral artery. It is not "payback", but constituent risk - the matador deliberately runs the edge of that risk, and the narrow avoidance of being gored is part of the demonstration of control. The ritual overall is an enacted tragedy, redeemed by the courage and skill of the matador - when Hemingway defined courage as "grace under pressure", he was talking about matadors.

 

[Enmos]

But you do need to know why someone kills another to call it murder, I hope.

And?

Matadors in the Spanish bullfight are gored frequently - much more often than principals in the nonlethal forms of bullfighting. The most common goring is in the groin, often involving rapid loss of blood from the femoral artery. It is not "payback", but constituent risk - the matador deliberately runs the edge of that risk, and the narrow avoidance of being gored is part of the demonstration of control. The ritual overall is an enacted tragedy, redeemed by the courage and skill of the matador - when Hemingway defined courage as "grace under pressure", he was talking about matadors.

WTF? Are you actually glorifying bullfighting?

It is not "payback", but constituent risk - the matador deliberately runs the edge of that risk, and the narrow avoidance of being gored is part of the demonstration of control.

No, it's not payback for the matador. Who said that?? I believe they were talking about the bull..
And the matador runs the risk of getting gored.. So fucking WHAT? That's his CHOICE. The bull doesn't have that choice. In fact, even if it wins it will still be killed. How's that for glory?

The ritual overall is an enacted tragedy, redeemed by the courage and skill of the matador - when Hemingway defined courage as "grace under pressure", he was talking about matadors.

Wow.. that's beautiful. You think they can manage to 'enact' that without torturing animals to death?
Give me a break, it's just entertainment for the sick and twisted.
"Grace under pressure"... LOL! People that think like that make me literally sick to my stomach.


You know what.. maybe you shouldn't reply. I might say things I shouldn't.

 

[visceral_instinct]

Um, Iceaura?

Humans KNOW BETTER than to kill animals for fun. Simple as that.

 

[iceaura]

But you do need to know why someone kills another to call it murder, I hope.
”
And?

And so you need to know something about a situation before you make judgments such as "payback".

An uncomprehending and ignorant little moralist is apt to make errors of judgment - true?

Humans KNOW BETTER than to kill animals for fun. Simple as that.

The question was not whether bullfighting was wrong. The question was whether it was the childishly simplistic and empty-headed cruelty it is made out to be by the language of "payback".

If somebody thinks bullfighting is "killing animals for fun", we can immediately dismiss their opinions in almost any aspect of the ritual. But the reaction of "payback" is also apparent in other, more adult or better informed people.

And that is the question I am asking - from where does the "payback" reaction arise? In informed people, I mean.

 

[John99]

Bull fighting is similar to how predators kill in nature. Also, take into some consideration that humans have\had a need to kill animals when one would attack them.

 

[visceral_instinct]

The question was not whether bullfighting was wrong. The question was whether it was the childishly simplistic and empty-headed cruelty it is made out to be by the language of "payback".

If somebody thinks bullfighting is "killing animals for fun", we can immediately dismiss their opinions in almost any aspect of the ritual. But the reaction of "payback" is also apparent in other, more adult or better informed people.

And that is the question I am asking - from where does the "payback" reaction arise? In informed people, I mean.

Why do I feel it is childish and empty-headed cruelty?

Because that bull is a sentient animal and there's no necessity for wounding it then eventually killing it after it staggers around the ring for a while and eventually becomes too weak to dodge and weave around the matador's blade. Because there are a whole world of other ways to get your kicks that way. Normal sports like football, whatever you like to watch. There is no need to slowly stab an animal to death.

 

[Enmos]

And so you need to know something about a situation before you make judgments such as "payback".

An uncomprehending and ignorant little moralist is apt to make errors of judgment - true?

Can you point out where I said that?

 

[wsionynw]

Bull fighting is similar to how predators kill in nature.

How?

 

[Doreen]

I still think that's a basic incomprehension of the ritual;

even of the Spanish bullfight, which was not the context of the OP, in which the bull does suffer and die. There are many forms of bullfighting in which the bull does not - at least, not in the arena.

Bullfight fans talk about something similar to the glorification of the bull - some matadors are better at that than others.

I am not against a bullfight where the bull just gets irritated and is not tortured and killed. That is a whole different thing. The fact that the bull gets glorified does not offset what I consider off that the bullfighter gets glorified for what he does in the contest where the bull is tortured and killed. and the bull will likely not notice its glorification. IOW with glorifiers like that who needs enemies.

 

[Doreen]

After commenting here yesterday, I watched a shitload of 'bull kills matador' videos on youtube
Although it's somewhat satisfying to see the bulls doing some real damage, I realize the bulls get killed afterwards anyway.. so it still makes me said.

I can't disagree with that sentiment.

 

[Doreen]

Been worrying the matter, and came up with:

Staying with the Spanish bullfight, not the OP, for a minute: To bullfight fans, it's not the matador being glorified at the expense of the bull. It's the death of the bull being glorified - made tragic or meaningful - at the expense of the matador.

The entire "payback" notion is off kilter, uncomprehending, from that pov. It's a bit as if someone were to view a Christmas tree falling on the tree-cutter's child as "payback" - not an exact analogy, but in the neighborhood.

If we were willing to grant the tree feeling and suffering and that the specific process of tree cutting involved taunting, fooling and dominating the tree before cutting it down, then I think I would go along with the analogy and be against the tree cutting. In fact I am, but more because I think tree farms are vastly less attractive than forest and the whole process is wasteful. But that's a whole nother thing.

 

[Doreen]

Animals enjoy what they do. They aren't acting with regret, out of rational calculation of necessity.

Disguise? I'm describing. Where is the virtue in ignorance, the moral high ground in failure to comprehend?
In the OP?

This is puzzling, these perceptions of "payback" in the OP picture. The impression delivered is that a lot of people have very little experience with large animals.

If someone used you, say in some version of a Roman sport, as part of a ritual where you were killed and tortured, why should their ideas of what glorifies you be seen as understanding the ritual
rather than your understanding of it, or someone who is empathetic and against the ritual.

You think we fail to comprehend. I think you are granting their INTERPRETATION of the event as what is really going on. To me what is really going on is the animal is treated like shit and then killed. And the man, usually it is a man, in the center of this is benefiting from the animals treatment. hence payback.


I see no reason to simply accept their version of the event.

and if you were kidnapped by some assholes and put to death in a fight with an opponent who has skills and weapons that make it much more likely you will lose, for the entertainment of the other assholes, I would not see any reason to honor their idea of the glory of the fight,
even if they genuinely felt proud of how well you fought before you got skewered.

I'd be rooting for you and if you won, I would consider it payback if these guys had been kidnapping people and doing this for a while and finally one person, you, gave them what they deserved. Even though their concept of what was going on would likely prevent them from understanding my anger and MY conception.

To me the people with the failure to comprehend are the ones who like that kind of bullfighting.

 

[iceaura]

If someone used you, say in some version of a Roman sport, as part of a ritual where you were killed and tortured, why should their ideas of what glorifies you be seen as understanding the ritual
rather than your understanding of it, or someone who is empathetic and against the ritual.

So what is your claim for the bull's understanding?

I don't give much credit to the people here who are claiming empathy with the bull. They don't seem all that familiar with bulls, to me. payback?!

You think we fail to comprehend. I think you are granting their INTERPRETATION of the event as what is really going on.

I think their self-claimed interpretation of the event is a more accurate version of their interpretation of the event than the version of their interpretation of the event I am getting from some posters here.

I'm not seeing much more reliable empathy with the people who care about bullfighting than with the bull, from some of the posters here. Again: where is this "payback" stuff coming from?

I see no reason to simply accept their version of the event.

I see plenty of reason to accept their version of their version of the event. They say they aren't torturing animals for fun, for example. They don't act as if they are torturing animals for fun. So the people who claim they are torturing animals for fun are probably wrong, no?