Bring Back Flogging as Alternative to Prison?

[Repo Man]

So...in effect the de facto punishment for a crime in the US can be being raped...and it pretty much is allowed to occur-in fact I've read stories of guards putting individuals who act up in cells with known rapists with the intent of it happening, as a threat and disciplinary tool, to keep troublemakers in line.
No, I can't disagree with you. I've pretty much come to this conclusion myself, that it's institutionalized and tacitly approved of.
And that is just f'ed up.
:splat:

It's horrifying when you think about it isn't it? It's so accepted that it's commonly joked about. If it were made a national priority, I believe it could be made rare in a matter of a few years. But with our national attitudes towards crime and punishment being what they are, I can't see the necessary resources being dedicated to solving the problem (and probably not within my lifetime). There are organizations dedicated to prison reform - here's one of them http://justdetention.org/

 

[madanthonywayne]

It isn't "humane" in any absolute sense, but I think the point of this suggestion is more to highlight how bad prison conditions have become, than to be taken seriously as such.

Did you read the article? Here's a quote:

As for the remedy that most legal observers are pushing for rather than flogging — i.e., making our current prisons less barbaric — Moskos is dismissive of that happening anytime soon. Certainly the federal and state governments could focus on reducing overcrowding and violence in prisons, putting in place effective drug treatment and educational programs, and getting serious about alternatives to incarceration and helping prisoners re-enter society when they are released. But, in the eyes of Moskos: "Prison reformers — and I wish them well — tinker at the edges of a massive failed system."

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2079933,00.html#ixzz1QpLs26nj

PS The last time a criminal was sentenced to flogging in the US was 1952 in Delaware. A convicted burglar received 20 lashes.

 

[Bells]

It isn't "humane" in any absolute sense, but I think the point of this suggestion is more to highlight how bad prison conditions have become, than to be taken seriously as such. I.e., if you operate on the (default) assumption that flogging is worse than prison, it's likely that you're underestimating the level of expected physical suffering prisoners are subjected to. For example, the majority of rape victims in the USA are males, exactly because prison rape is endemic (and this is actually widely known and tolerated - even, approved of).

Wouldn't it be better to reform the prison system than to subject people to punishment like flogging?

There's also the angle of interrogating what we consider "humane," and why. If a person prefers the physical pain/damage of a flogging to being kept in a cage for years, who are we to insist that the latter must be more humane? Is it simply because the flogging is corporal punishment, while imprisonment is (theoretically) not? Perhaps our definition of "humane" should value psychological torment as much as (even, more than) physical pain?

Perhaps. I guess we could just give prisoners what they prefer?

But how well do you think it will go down to have a big white beefy guard with a whip or lash, tying an African American to a post and whipping him for having broken the law?

Considering the rates of incarceration for non-whites compared to whites...

I don't need to point out the issues that would arise there, do I?

What crimes would qualify? Theft? Rape? Assault?

The irony of course is that we often have cases in ME nations and Asia where flogging is the punishment and you have all and sundry coming out of the woodwork saying it is inhumane and yet here we are...

But, again, the upshot of the rhetoric should be a focus on making prisons actually live up to the expectation of being more humane than corporal punishment, exhibiting genuine rehabilitative value, etc. It would be very cynical to go in for the suggestion at face value.

Which is the thing, isn't it.

Why not reform the prison system instead of going back to the days of 'tying up the nigger to the post for a whippin'...

 

[quadraphonics]

Wouldn't it be better to reform the prison system than to subject people to punishment like flogging?

Isn't that what I said?

Perhaps. I guess we could just give prisoners what they prefer?

Inadvisable, obviously - but then we have to stop and question how it is that we're dictating to them what they'd prefer, no?

But how well do you think it will go down to have a big white beefy guard with a whip or lash, tying an African American to a post and whipping him for having broken the law?

About as well as having a big white beefy prison guard locking an African American in a cage, and beating him with a baton if he gets out of line. I.e, what we have right now.

Considering the rates of incarceration for non-whites compared to whites...

Considering that such issue is orthogonal to the question of corporal punishment vs. imprisonment, I'd suggest that you refrain from shoehorning a bunch of tangential drama about racism into this thread. I mean, I realize that you're a raging drama queen, but let's try to avoid a total derail, okay?

The irony of course is that we often have cases in ME nations and Asia where flogging is the punishment and you have all and sundry coming out of the woodwork saying it is inhumane and yet here we are...

Well, we're already to the point of the US Supreme Court declaring that conditions in CA prisons are inhumane, so... again, maybe give the racist derail a rest, for a change. Are you simply disinterested in discussing anything if it isn't going to be an occasion for cheap outrage over racism/sexism? Seriously, there needs to be a corollary to Godwin's Law dealing with inflammatory usage of the word "nigger" to derail.

 

[Bells]

Isn't that what I said?

Sounded less pompous when I said it. Lets face it, you are a pompous arse.

Inadvisable, obviously - but then we have to stop and question how it is that we're dictating to them what they'd prefer, no?

Be beaten and allowed to go free or be beaten and incarcerated.

Real win/win there.

About as well as having a big white beefy prison guard locking an African American in a cage, and beating him with a baton if he gets out of line. I.e, what we have right now.

And the alternative given is to flog them...

It is like the gift that keeps on giving.

Considering that such issue is orthogonal to the question of corporal punishment vs. imprisonment, I'd suggest that you refrain from shoehorning a bunch of tangential drama about racism into this thread. I mean, I realize that you're a raging drama queen, but let's try to avoid a total derail, okay?

You are not seeing the point.

You have a system that has non-whites well over represented within the system itself and the incarceration rates of non-whites is much higher than it is for whites. The system itself is a failure and inhumane, as your prisons are well over-crowded and guards who appear to be abusing their positions. The level of rapes, beatings and murders that are allowed to happen obviously show that things are not as they should be.

And instead of looking at reform, which would possibly see a reduction in the over-representation of non-whites in prison, possibly looking at community programs as an over-all reform to lessen the number who are sent to prison, the solution presented is flogging..

Well, we're already to the point of the US Supreme Court declaring that conditions in CA prisons are inhumane, so... again, maybe give the racist derail a rest, for a change. Are you simply disinterested in discussing anything if it isn't going to be an occasion for cheap outrage over racism/sexism? Seriously, there needs to be a corollary to Godwin's Law dealing with inflammatory usage of the word "nigger" to derail.

Not at all. You are just too pompous to see anything that does not come from your arse.

When you have an over-burdened system that is so grossly overrepresented by non-whites - you have to question why that is so. And when the solution presented to dealing with an over-burdened system that is so over-represented with non-whites amounts to flogging, instead of reform, which would involve law reforms and community programs which would see a lesser rate of incarceration amongst the non-whites in the community, it does raise eyebrows over the racial issue.

In other words, instead of reforming a system that has so many non-whites or "niggers" in it, they look to flogging, and it will become racial when one looks at your not so distant history and how your country dealt with African Americans. If the best they can come up with goes back to the "nigger" vs "master" age of your country, then you're royally fucked.