Bring Back Flogging as Alternative to Prison?

[madanthonywayne]

Peter Moskos, who teaches at John Jay college of Criminal Justice, has suggested that we bring back flogging as an alternative to prison under the formula 2 lashes per year of prison. He offers this not as part of a "tough on crime" thesis, but as a more effective and humane alternative to prison.

Prisons, rather than reforming criminals, are criminogenic. Inmates often emerge from prison not as reformed citizens ready to play a constructive role in society, but as meaner and better criminals. This at a cost that is breaking the bank in these days of tight budgets.

Thus Mr Moskos suggests we offer flogging as an alternative to prison. He says it would be far cheaper and probably more effective than sending novice criminals to what amounts to a University of Crime.

Violent criminals who constitute a risk to the public, however, would not be offered this option.

Here's the article:

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2079933,00.html?xid=fblike

What do you think? If I were offered the choice, I'd go for the flogging.

 

[Bells]

He offers this not as part of a "tough on crime" thesis, but as a more effective and humane alternative to prison.

Maybe you can explain this to me.

How, exactly, is it more humane to tie someone to a post or have them kneel and bend over and whip his or her back with a lash or whip of some sort?

I am trying to wrap my brain around how this (as one prime example of flogging) is more humane?

 

[spidergoat]

Idiotic. Everyone would go for the flogging and wear it like a badge of honor... and then go on to commit other crimes because it's better than prison. Besides, it's against the Eighth Amendment to the Constitution.

 

[cosmictraveler]

Wow, sadists and machoestists plus some Emos will really enjoy that!

I don't think that would help anyone to deter them from comitting a crime however. Imagine staling a million dollars and only having to have a few lashes for that crime and then go on about your life spending the money you stole.

 

[madanthonywayne]

Maybe you can explain this to me.

How, exactly, is it more humane to tie someone to a post or have them kneel and bend over and whip his or her back with a lash or whip of some sort?

I am trying to wrap my brain around how this (as one prime example of flogging) is more humane?

More humane than being in prison with a bunch of thugs where you're likely to get beaten, raped, and possibly even murdered? A one time flogging versus years of being subjected to homosexual rape and possibly even contracting AIDS?

 

[spidergoat]

Plus you could pretend you are Jesus, an added benefit since many prisoners are mentally ill and probably think they are Jesus.

 

[Yazata]

Perhaps there's a case to be made for Islamic-style punishment by physical maiming, in some cases at least.

Instead of locking up an habitual violent offender with a mandatory life sentence, thus incurring the huge social cost of imprisoning him, it might make more pragmatic sense to simply blind and release him. Blind men are very unlikely to be violent criminals. And it's a nasty enough result that bangers wouldn't want to incur it as a badge of criminal honor like gang tattoos or flogging scars.

Of course, I don't think that it would hold up to Constitutional review here in the United States. And ethically speaking, maybe it shouldn't. But it does kind of make sense in terms of cost containment and social efficiency.

 

[spidergoat]

There's no appeal to a blinding.

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

It would scare the shit out of people .

 

[Yazata]

There's no appeal to a blinding.

Yeah, that's true. Or to having your hand cut off, Islamic-style.

That's probably the strongest argument against a punishment-by-maiming policy, in my opinion.

Of course, you can't replace time spent in prison for a crime that you didn't commit either. But I guess that it is easier to return things to at least some semblance of how they were before a convicion that's later overturned.

 

[spidergoat]

There are good things about prison, you can get an education, and you can sit there and think about your life and why you are there and hope you will never do anything again to bring you back there.

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

There are good things about prison, you can get an education, and you can sit there and think about your life and why you are there and hope you will never do anything again to bring you back there.

Marek Gibney Spidey Gnod . Interesting . The rockers look like they got out of prison presently. The one guy at the top of the one page looked like white supremacist types . Looks can be deceiving . Just cause your head is shaved and you sing monster noises don't mean you are a white supremacist.

Hanging ! How bout that ? Is hanging humane ? When was the last hanging in the United States ? Hanging sent a clear message . It still gives Me the chills to see pictures of real live group hangings

 

[spidergoat]

I'm afraid the conservative love for brutal authority in this case will be trumped by their love for the profits to be had in the private prison industry.

 

[cosmictraveler]

There are good things about prison, you can get an education, and you can sit there and think about your life and why you are there and hope you will never do anything again to bring you back there.

Free advice from others to help with your next crime, free medical care, 3 meals , heat and A/C, conjugal visits by girlfriends, library, private room (solitary confinement) and other things as well.

 

[chimpkin]

Yazata said:
Instead of locking up an habitual violent offender with a mandatory life sentence, thus incurring the huge social cost of imprisoning him, it might make more pragmatic sense to simply blind and release him. Blind men are very unlikely to be violent criminals.

Nasty, but very effective. Startling idea. Disturbing.

And not constitutional.

MadAnthonywayne said:
More humane than being in prison with a bunch of thugs where you're likely to get beaten, raped, and possibly even murdered?

And that's a problem... we overcrowd, badly design and understaff our prisons, so that we are not able to assure physical safety and freedom from violent crime.

Which seems like it ought to be classified as cruel punishment. Therefore it seems like it ought to be unconstitutional to fail to reasonably assure physical safety for prisoners in prison.

Cosmictraveller said:
heat and A/C,

GIven to understand Texas state prisons, except the hospital jails, don't have AC. If it's 100 degrees outside here (Like now) it's 100 degrees inside there.

I've heard of diabetics and prisoners on psych medications (that mess with your ability to sweat) dying in Texas state jails from the heat, especially during transport.
And the general response to that is:shrug:.

 

[spidergoat]

Free advice from others to help with your next crime, free medical care, 3 meals , heat and A/C, conjugal visits by girlfriends, library, private room (solitary confinement) and other things as well.

Conjugal visits are rewards for good behavior, as is access to books. Solitary confinement is difficult for human beings, it is not a reward, it's more like torture. The rest- medical care, food, heat, cooling, interaction with other prisoners, are just basic needs. It's been proven that education is the best defense against recidivism.

 

[Cifo]

Maybe you can explain this to me. How, exactly, is it more humane to tie someone to a post or have them kneel and bend over and whip his or her back with a lash or whip of some sort?

I am trying to wrap my brain around how this (as one prime example of flogging) is more humane?

I asked someone I know who spent over ten years in prison, and he (who lost the most precious years of his life) says that he would gladly suffer one flog for every month he would have served, that is, more than 120 flogs (although not all at once). He has never regained any substantial aspect of his former life (he lost his family, career, wealth, reputation, health, etc). He also says he has personally witnessed a torture victim whose back was completely scar tissue, from shoulder to shoulder all the way down to his waist.

 

[cosmictraveler]

Solitary confinement is difficult for human beings, it is not a reward, it's more like torture

From what I've seen I'd think it would be the safest place not to be hurt or screwed with by fellow inmates. At least you won't have to worry about your bunk mate slipping his junk into your trunk.

 

[quadraphonics]

Maybe you can explain this to me.

How, exactly, is it more humane to tie someone to a post or have them kneel and bend over and whip his or her back with a lash or whip of some sort?

It isn't "humane" in any absolute sense, but I think the point of this suggestion is more to highlight how bad prison conditions have become, than to be taken seriously as such. I.e., if you operate on the (default) assumption that flogging is worse than prison, it's likely that you're underestimating the level of expected physical suffering prisoners are subjected to. For example, the majority of rape victims in the USA are males, exactly because prison rape is endemic (and this is actually widely known and tolerated - even, approved of).

There's also the angle of interrogating what we consider "humane," and why. If a person prefers the physical pain/damage of a flogging to being kept in a cage for years, who are we to insist that the latter must be more humane? Is it simply because the flogging is corporal punishment, while imprisonment is (theoretically) not? Perhaps our definition of "humane" should value psychological torment as much as (even, more than) physical pain?

But, again, the upshot of the rhetoric should be a focus on making prisons actually live up to the expectation of being more humane than corporal punishment, exhibiting genuine rehabilitative value, etc. It would be very cynical to go in for the suggestion at face value.

 

[chimpkin]

For example, the majority of rape victims in the USA are males, exactly because prison rape is endemic (and this is actually widely known and tolerated - even, approved of).

So...in effect the de facto punishment for a crime in the US can be being raped...and it pretty much is allowed to occur-in fact I've read stories of guards putting individuals who act up in cells with known rapists with the intent of it happening, as a threat and disciplinary tool, to keep troublemakers in line.
No, I can't disagree with you. I've pretty much come to this conclusion myself, that it's institutionalized and tacitly approved of.
And that is just f'ed up.
:splat: