Brain, etc.

spuriousmonkey said:
I can't remember where exactly, but I have heard that neurons have some kind of memory.

The question is where this memory resides. Is it present in the gross morphology, or is far more subtle and resides in for instance internal balance of certain regulatory proteins?

Can this memory be really emulated by reconstructing the morphological structure?
yes, i should really do some rudimentary research on the topic.

what are the possibilities;

chemical memory in the cytoplasm, or
morphological memory based on dendritic connections and gross morphology like cerebral furrows, or
a combination, or

what else?

let's make a list.
 
I read a book about 10 years or so ago called Star Wave. It was a quantum computer theory of the brain. I imagine that this one is "stretch" to put it mildly. But, interesting anyway. The brain fluid was used in this theory to hold information. Can't recall details, it's been too long since I've read it and was never an expert in quantum mechanics to begin with.
 
Blue_UK said:
Stryderunknown,
Out of interest, what's your academic background?

Same goes for everyone else, while I'm at it.

Just wondering. :|

My backgrounding is a mixture of a Labrat merged with a "Pauli effect" (well without experiments going wrong).

I've covered a variety of subjects through research, some better than others (which is sometimes proven) and a contender for the equivalent of a Phd.

My research into Neurological functions was purely for research into Artificial Intelligence systems and Neural Networks. To built a better Intelligence system it requires a better understanding of how to create a program and network to do what we do and do it more efficiently.

Which admittedly has included alot of extrapolation over how some things work because it's dealing with the philosophies of how a function could be achieved and not necessarily how it actually is.


Sargentlard said:
Speaking from personal experience ehh?
You could say so, Caffine, late nights and Games sessions are enough to mess a persons perception up. Jumping at shadows etc

Back on the subject, What I was actually informed was that the memory is Cellular and I did derive a reasoning to prove the cellular level memory.

Card Example:
my explaination carries quite well in reference to autism (namely I this example I have as evidence "for" my suggestion). In a particular film about an Autistic that saw his parents murdered, and explaination of autism is used that an autistic accesses memories in order. The example was of a suit taken from a pack of cards where to get to say the 7 of clubs the autistic has to step through all the cards from the Ace of Clubs through to the 7 of Clubs to access that memory.

to cover how this fits in with what I suggest, I have to explain a bit to give you a grounds up approach to help you understand where I'm coming from.

As most of you should know from the most primitive understanding of Biology, Cells Subdivide. However what you might not know is that when they subdivide they generate an alteration within the genetic code that "marks" that division, then the cells go on to divide again etc.

Eventually the division continues until the cells reach a genetic point where division is impossible to continue because the overall coding would be too great to continue cellular "cloning" through division, this means either the cells stop reproducing through mitosis or they start mutating the code and leaving bits out. If it stops producing then thats the cellular limit which will be apparent in other cells of the same age and source pathing, leaving bits out is where I believe junk code comes in, because it can't leave out the patterning that suggests the cells development and future subdivision characteristics.

[A computerised example here would be like suggesting that a computers memory has been alloted only 1mb, and a program that keeps adding things to the end of the information thats stored has to either chop off some of the code to continue refreshing the stored memory or stop producing a refresh because a size limit has been reached.

In fact I suggest that Junk code within DNA is like RAM, where information is parsed and can be recompiled from time to time and housed for interaction with other cells.]

I realised one day while I was remonising about something in my childhood, that a memory that wasn't directly associated with what I was remembering occured. This memory was from my childhood dated around the same period as the memory I was remembering.

This suggested to me that the genetic mitosis code for the first memory I was accessing, triggered a consecutive memory that would have been created around the same time and consisted of a similar genetic code. (like the age of the cells)

Which in turn led me to think of how that interaction occured and of course the Card example I started with.

However my thoughts to this point concerned a few theories on the powers of the mind, For instance it could be possible for a memory to construct a virus which would potentially be an "Against" to contest my theory, however I have no data to suggest thats the case.

However it could be possible that a DNA pattern placed within a particular chemical combination could be used to Sculpture particular neurological traits within the brain (like the morphology thats been suggested) like taking a trait from a very smart individual and causing it to be replicated in others. However the outcome would potentially cause a number of side effects and it's all luckily fiction, Although it could be a method of fixing certain neurological illnesses like Parkinsons etc.

Also while still on the topic of Neurology, a Hypothesis was reached on how communication occurs within the brain. Consensus suggests that Braincells communicate through through the Axons as a medium, however a suggestion that the actual cell could work also on a frequency scale was presumed.

Namely your cells could work with a similar interaction to radiofrequency, where a cells stimulation can generate massive synaptic changes that altered a wave formation quantum state that is received by nearby Cells that have their synapses aligned in particular positions at the time of reception.

This Hypothesis was suggested as the consideration of the "bandwidth" of the Axon's seemed to be be too low to deal with the overall information transactions that the brain does. Rather than causing a hypothetical "traffic jam" when the information flow is too great, it was perceived it could be transfered as a waveformation.

This hypothesis gives reason why people with Disattached Frontal lobes can still operate like a person without the disattachment. It even helps explain how the brain generates a "clustered" stimulation effect when captured on realtime MRI.
 
Last edited:
It might be because I'm tired and have just had a drink, but I don't entirely follow.

Are you suggesting that brain cells interact by means other than charge propagation along axons/synapses?

Also with regard to the genetic 'marks' (issued during instances of mitosis), how are these referenced when memories are required? I thought brain cells were very long lived and thus do not divide regularly.

I would have thought memory was either 'software' (phyiscal layout = constant, signals in loops) or both soft and hardware based as mentioned in a previous post.

Great to hear you're into NN's, I'm really looking forward to studying them at uni. I'm only self taught so far.
 
This is why I like the peer review method because my examples tend to get long winded and lose people, so it helps to go over the areas where someone has or hasn't understood via Q & A.

Q: Are you suggesting that brain cells interact by means other than charge propagation along axons/synapses?

A: Yes, I'm suggesting that an Excited Cell can generate a waveformation that is either electromagnetic or chemical(like smell) and that neighbouring cells process the waveform through an array of open ended synapses that aren't directly link to axons.


Q: Also with regard to the genetic 'marks' (issued during instances of mitosis), how are these referenced when memories are required? I thought brain cells were very long lived and thus do not divide regularly.

A: Again this is theoretics based on a Neurological strategy in computing and "might" not be the reality in Neurology, however my suggestion is that a kind of encoded shuffle takes place within the genetic makeup. example:

You start with a genetic code that contains a HEADER, this being information that's need to define the formation of the CELL and junk coding thats "Expendable".

The example has HEADER being something that can't be altered for the above reason, and the random lower case letters as being junkcode. Phases are mitosis occurances.

Phase 1: > HEADERwsozehtvlsnvoeng
Phase 2: > xHEADERwsozehtvlsnvoen
Phase 3: > exHEADERwsozehtvlsnvoe
...
Phase 18: > wgpnghrwhgpnhrwrHEADER
Phase 19: > awgpnghrwhgpnhrwrHEADE

The above shows you how I suggest it could be possible, The code at every mitosis phase is shifted a position (this is simplified for the example), by Phase 18 (in this example) the Code has amost got to the point where the Header is going to be malformed, when this occurs by Phase 19 it no longer produces Mitosis because it can no longer do so due to it's genetic pattern being malformed.

It is correct saying that eventually (by the age of about 21) the Human brain stops producing extra brain cells. (They can't subdivide after Interphase) but this ties in with the theory that memory is stored within the Junk data as if it could subdivide it would cause mutations. (which is why I pointed out the Phased subdivision above to show malformity, Aging and how a cell inerts itself.)

If Memory was software based, then when you go to sleep at night you would wake up in the morning and forget most of what happened the day before.

My previous suggestion on the actual storing of data was the use of UV photonic reactions to alter the junk code state similar to photogenic film, it would tie in nicely with how the Pineal gland could produce melatonin to attempt to stop the overexposure of tissue to UV. Again it is just speculation and really for a better understanding of NN mechanics.

[As you'll find out when you get to Uni, "Don't take peoples words for it" otherwise you could open yourself up to peer review critism.
 
Yes, I'm suggesting that an Excited Cell can generate a waveformation that is either electromagnetic or chemical(like smell) and that neighbouring cells process the waveform through an array of open ended synapses that aren't directly link to axons.

That is interesting. So there are 'loose' synapses not connected to incoming axons, that can be stimulated by EM? I had not considered that.

If Memory was software based, then when you go to sleep at night you would wake up in the morning and forget most of what happened the day before.

Not necessarily, perhaps different physical pathways are used for this. Is short-term memory software memory?

Now, although you point out that brain cells do not actually divide, even in the hypothetical case how is it supposed that these junk genes are read? Bearing in mind how quickly memories can be recalled.

UV etc...
I take it we are talking about cellular memory in general rather than brain cells?
 
[Please note my theoretical model isn't about a human brain so much as a NN one, also note they are a work in progress, so questions can actually start to alter the theory based upon if the original theory stands up to peer review or not.]

http://www.psycheducation.org/mechanism/introduction to mechanism.htm

Although the example covers depression, it gives you a clue to how the synapses work with transreception of signals.

looking at it would suggest my current theory of how junk DNA is used would be incorrect, it doesn't store the memory. However It could store a Heirarchy map, a pattern matching code that decides on which cells are compatible with it's communication.

I had looked at this preportion before, The theory was actually to do with Languages across the world in relationship to the brain from a metaphysical angle. If the brain sends a signal from one point to another, does it distinguish itself as having an Accent or Foreign language, so as not to trick other regions into stimulation/processing?

In reality it's probably more down to a kind of inverse square logic, where the distance between clusters means they can't hear each other. Again this theory is really for Neural Networks in defining how systems in a parallel processing configuration should be able to comunicate with one another at a low enough bandwidth level to attempt to stop the network from being conjested.

However this brings us back to how information is stored, since it's now defined as not that far into genetics. The only real answer is in how the synapses work, a carrier could be "locked" into position until it's released by a chemical reaction caused by either Time, Heat, Cellular excitement or Enzymatic signal. It provides the "why it's not totally software" because it's using a Quibit system (namely a physical marker rather than floating point operand).

Theorisation here is If you have say 10 people in a room, and you have 5 stand on each side of the room acting as neural transreceivers how do they communicate messages from one to another? in the brain a "vocalised" command is suggested as a chemical switch, however that would suggest that the region between the neural transreceivers is a sea of different chemicals, a flood or noise of commands.

That would mean that a person in the group on one side, speaking to another person on the otherside is speaking out load to the "group", as you can tell with all 10 talking it would create quite noise. It could be suggested that If something important has been said to someone (within this "Broadcast") they would have to stick their fingers in their ears and drown out the continued broadcast. They would have to take a prompt with their eyesight when to release their captured (remembered) command.

My suggestion in the brain however is that the Eyesight trigger is one of these neurotransmitters having an enzyme effect that "unsticks" a "fixed" synapse. This would tie in well with how some anti-psychotic drugs can cause side effects in the human brain, like wiping memory if the drug itself covers the "eyesight trigger" and "unfixes" the markers of memory.

This would all tie in with the localised cluster scenario as another 10 people in another room next door are a faint mummer and don't cause collisions of commands due to their proximity being too distant and muffled to have commands perceived.

A continued suggestion here in the field of neuropsychosis with one of my original points about "waveforms" being a preportion to the this puzzle has to be ommitted.
It's been known for sometime (the beginning of the 20th Century) that studying atoms at the subatomic level had alot of draw backs. One was notibly defined by E. Heisenberg and became known as "The Heisenberg Effect".

It's actual reasoning was about the uncertainty of atomic positioning based upon the technique of subatomic measurement. (I believe it was suggested a photon used to define the location of an electron would alter the course of the electron in regards to where it was "destined to go".).

I bring this up here because if a person has a waveformation event similar to what Heisenberg explained, then the information doesn't arrive at the destination it was suppose to. This could explain absentmindedness/forgetfulness, because where something was suppose to be stored it wasn't placed in the right location due to potential external interaction (.ie. eating food, drinking coffee etc) or a small "networking collision".

Again in the field of Quantum Mechanics,Erwin Schrodinger preposed a theory on Waverformations through the use of his legendary "Schrodingers Cat" theoretical experiment, the experiment itself isn't whats important however some of the theorised outcomes are. One was the duality state of coexistance of the cat based upon the radioactive ingredient within a box.

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Schrodingers cat

In this particular instance, I'm not suggesting there is a radioactive ingredient within the brain, however it is exposed to UV (among other types) of radiation. Interaction of a radio frequency for instance from a mobile telephone could cause a Duality state of a neurotransmitter, it could have a physical existance in one location while also having a electromagnetic background (blackbody) secondary position within the brain causing a paradox. Such paradoxes I believe could be responsible for some forms of psychotraumatic trauma, as the paradoxal state causes a very weird sideeffect since two positions within the brain would be privy to the same signals at the same time, which could be conflicting ones.

This would a difficult one to do in a people in a room experiment, since you would have to generate a parallel of the room, and then you would have to have one person say a Command at the same time thats different in each universe. From the perception of the receiver the one in their own universe will be the loudest Command, however they will too be privy to the Parallel Command causing a "collision". (Collusion being a paradox)

I think in total this is getting near what it is, however keep the questions (and facts) coming as it will clean up any errors in logic.
 
Back
Top