Books: SciFi & Fantasy

My Mini Essay, by BigBlueHead

Stunties and Longears: Themes of Identity in Fantasy Literature

Part 1: The Use of Archetypes to Support Identity

The use of intelligent non-human characters has been a long tradition in fantasy literature. In Tolkien's Lord of the Rings, Elves, Dwarves, Humans, Orcs, and Hobbits all represented different cultural and racial populations. C.S. Lewis, in the Chronicles of Narnia, wrote about human beings, but also a large cast of talking animals and mythic creatures such as fauns and dryads. The cultural variety that this provides in a fantasy story can be helpful in painting a more varied world that comes with its own premade division points to make cultural differentiation simpler for the reader. Rather than try to describe superficially similar characters in such a way as to accentuate their cultural differences, the author can explain a series of cultures in connection with superficial characteristics, and thereafter conjure a strong correlation with what people in the story look like (in the imagination of the reader) and how they behave.

Once the division is made properly in the narrative, a single word is enough to communicate the innate characteristics of one person - "The elf shook his head in disagreement." This is a powerful tool in storytelling, permitting a more compact text to deliver more meaning to the reader. Even in the case of a character who does not conform to the standards of their society, it is immediately a surprise to the reader - they do not need to relearn the entire social structure to be able to appreciate the importance of the "elf who doesn't speak to trees".

(John Cleese once spoke of the internal logic of a humourous sketch, saying that if a sketch begins with four people dressed as carrots sitting in dumpsters, and a person in a tuxedo walks onto the stage, the viewer will immediately ask why he is not dressed as a carrot and not sitting in a dumpster. This applies, in a certain way, to all storytelling; the beginning of the story is accepted as being its framework.)

However, the strong sense of culture in fantasy stories lends itself to a minor literary difficulty, which is what I shall call Appearance as Identity. This, in short, is where a person's characterization identifies so closely with their culture that different individuals of that culture are only really distinguishable by name. This is a form of laziness on the part of the author because it relies on the cultural background - itself sometimes only implied - to do the work of characterization.

An example of this problem is the animal-people story, an outgrowth of the talking animal stories like those of Thornton Burgess and Richard Adams.

The Talking Animal story generally refers to a story in which animals talk, and usually all share some common animal language, but otherwise generally go about being like the animals that they are supposed to be - birds fly and make nests, weasels and foxes hunt, toads eat flies and bury themselves in the mud. The only supposed difference between the real lives of animals and those depicted in the Talking Animal story is that we are permitted to understand communications that might go on between them.

I should briefly distinguish between the Animal-People story and the Anthropomorphized Animal / Furry story. The AA/Furry story generally assumes the burden of explanation as to where the anthropomorphized animals came from - seperate evolution, genetic engineering or mutation, or some explicable source. In science fiction, the AA's tend to be mutants or designer animals, or creatures from another planet; in fantasy AA stories they tend to take place in a different world where such creatures have existed as long as humans have on Earth.
This distinguishes these stories from the Animal-People stories, where if a person is a mouse, then even if they walk upright, speak English, wear clothes and shoes and live in a castle, they are still a mouse and identify directly with those characteristics that are traditionally associated with mice, usually even as far as relative physical size. Mice are shy and furtive, dogs are loyal and tenacious, weasels are malicious and violent. Although individual characters will have individual strengths and weaknesses, the assumed characterization of their species still predominates in their description. (Again, even if they are a "surprise", the nice weasel, the tough rabbit.)

This in itself is not a major literary problem; at worst it is a bit of laziness that will have a deleterious effect on an author's work, by weakening the individual presence of supporting characters. However, it has given rise to a larger problem, a kind of internal cultural stagnation that has become a characteristic of some fantasy writing.
 
Part 2: The Assumption of Archetypes as a Representation of Identity

The use of archetype in characterization of some conventional fantasy characters, such as the Elf and the Dwarf, is quite common and has been supported by the fact that this represents a codified convention - that of Dungeons and Dragons, and the long series of novels that have descended from that roleplaying game. Dungeons and Dragons contains a description of "The Elf" and "The Dwarf" and their identifying characteristics as part of the core rules of the game; all of the Dragonlance/Forgotten Realms novels and other similar works that are set in this environment will be expected to conform fairly closely to the original reading of the game rules, and general cultural differences will only lead to a further subdivision within this context - the difference between "Dragonlance Elves" and "Forgotten Realms Elves".

This is a specific example of a more general theory of unified cultural identity of those races - Elves and Dwarves - and more generally any group of genetically differentiated people that show up in a fantasy story. In Redwall the groups are represented by animals instead, but the result is the same. Even if one person should rise above the limitations of their cultural background, the other members of that culture will still remain mired within it.

In Dragons of Autumn Twilight by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman, there are two themes of identity that come out in the narrative, apparently contrasted against one another. Flint, a Dwarf, takes several moments to affirm his own cultural ideology for the reader, mainly that he likes to make things. This is contrasted against Tannis - half elf and half human, which in Dungeons and Dragons is referred to as "half-elf" - who laments his lack of a cultural identity because his parents were not what he would have wanted.

Given two aspects of Tannis' life, first, that his mixed parentage resulted in his being edged out of his society, and second, that he has since become a soldier of fortune relying on people from other societies who were more willing to accept him than his own, it seems strange in the context of the story that he would lament his lost place in a tribe of slightly xenophobic elves who never treated him very well.

More generally there has appeared a certain sort of jocular racist attitude that has become almost a fantasy convention, and is at times even supported by some unfortunate decisions in the codification of the racial standards. (I note, for instance, that the "Dwarven Women Have Beards" jibe even made it into The Two Towers movie. Since no Dwarven women were ever adequately described in Lord of the Rings, I must assume that this idea came from Dungeons and Dragons. Dwarves are also very often depicted as either Norwegian, which sort of makes sense, or as Scottish, which does not.) Wars between The Elves and The Dwarves also make up the background of many fantasy stories and story cycles, such as the back story from the Palladium Fantasy roleplaying system.

This sort of conventionalization of an insular and unchanging culture has affected fantasy literature; even though elves in one story may be very different from elves in another, they still share the same level of insularity in most cases. (Certainly I have never seen a character in any book who had both elven and dwarven ancestry.) This attitude of cultural insularity being an inborn and unchangeable trait has become quite recognizable and is represented as strongly in similar literary genres such as the Animal-People stories; often, in fantasy, a rich and complex system of social division and conflict is considered a good basis for a story.

Should this idea be considered a legitimate convention in fantasy stories? I believe that the literature should be more speculative, and not adopt such a restrictive convention, especially not one with such massive cultural ramifications; fantasy is supposed to be the imagination of a different and more interesting world, and to bring this idea of identity to fantasy stories with such regularity undermines the validity of these stories in my opinion.
 
Interesting. I dont think youll find anyone wanting to argue against that. I am having trouble thinking of such authors, mainly because I try and avoid them. It seems to me that since tolkein, most fantasy has been stuck in its own universe, althogh some author have managed to break out in various ways, except much of said brekaing out was done 20 yers ago or longer. I shall have to check my local bookstores and see what they have got.
When i saw LOTR, I immediately thought it was odd how the modern, evolved and stereotypical fantasy had been fed back into the original story that had started the modern obsession off.
Of cours,e not getting too adverturous helps ensure success in the mass market world, yet still leaves people crying out for something half way origginal, which if produced will sweep the bookshops.
 
I haven't read a lot of recent fantasy, since I have trouble differentiating one book from another; last fantasy book I got was Marsha Wells' Wheel of the Infinite...

"He's a rugged frontiersman with long, blond hair and a lust for life...
She's a lonely middle-aged lady who looks a lot like the author...
Someone else better get a plan for saving the world 'cause damn but they sound busy in there."

I like romance novels as well as... okay, I don't like them. The setting doesn't change the content.

Maybe someone could advise me of a good fantasy novel/series?(I generally prefer stand-alone books, but they don't write those much recently.)
 
BTW, I'll be very surprised if no one posts in favour of cultural identity as a literary device...
 
Hey, yoru beggining to sound like me! Im getting a little bored iwth all the usual stereotypes myself.

Recent fantasy, you coudl try K J Parker, and his (i think its a he, biographical info is hard ot find, even though theyve written 2 trilogies) fencer trilogy. It almost works, though theres a bit of the cultural identity as plot device in the third book, but the rest of them work ok, since although theres people clashing, that are from different cultures, (think barbarians versus civilisation etc.) it works as a story. And theres not much romance in them. Although there is a flaw with regards to the civilisation and countrys bit, ie that they arent linked enough.

I think someone might post in favour of cultural identity as a literary device, if it hadnt been overused already, as you point out.

I take it your after really different, fantastic fantasy? Sorry, dont know any. I assume youve read stuff like the new wave from 30 years ago, Michael Moorcock et al? And Lord Dunsany from 80 years ago?

I'm writing a few fantasy stype stories myself, but most of them are sufficiently "normal" except with the inclusion of magic etc etc, that they arent what your looking for. Theyre just entertainment i want to write myself. hhmm, that reminds me of a dream i had recently, i wonder if I could parley that into fantasy......

Dont read any Kirsten Brittan (or britain? cant remember.) its stereotypical as hell, even as its an entertaining read.

i think J V Jones is rather good, although ive only read two of her books. She is quite new, been around for 6 or 8 years.
 
Micahel Swanwick - "The iron Dragons daughter"
is very good. read it. its a stand alone single book.
In fact read anything by Swanwick, he doesnt write much but what he does is good.
And try Alan Garner, he writes childrens books, but I still find them entertaining now, over a decade later.

OK, fantasy. I have forgotten much of what i was thinking about at work, since that was a few hours ago, but essentially, my troble is that there are only so many story types you can get. boy meets girl, fall in love, save one from danger, etc. Or Good versus evil, usually in the most obvious way possible. Now, how much do we read so many stoires like that because of their archetypal nature, and how much simply because thats all you can write. I sometimes think you could write something completely new and original and different, but only you and 2 other people would actually read it, and only you would enjoy it. You see, in order ot be a published book, it has to have some sort of commonality with other people, such that they will understand most of it. This is where archetypes come in, these commonplace ideals of storys that have been seen in most stories going back thousands of years. For example, i have just read a prose translation of Beowulf, and it is little different from something you would see on our tv screens today, and I can see where TOlkein got so much of LOTR from. However, what makes tolkein special in my opinion, is not only the depth of world he creates, but the essence of it that he distills onto the pages. There is akind of purity about it, and about hte bets writing out there, it fits into and utilises the familiar archetypes, yet does so in a new, interesting manner, without changing the underlying story structure. Like a house has four walls and a roof almsot everywhere, a kind of essence like the old philsosophers woudl go on about. But that still emans we are trapped within these essences, unable to get outside them, forever repeating the old ways with the occaisional twist ( lovers get killed, the boy turns out to be an alien etc) and new wallpaper on them. So that brings me back to writing something completely outside these boxes, and I am not sure it is possible, or even desirable. Push the boundaries by all means, but something so far outside the boundaries its on a different continent isnt much use as a story, given what stories are for. One way you can push the boundaries is to wirte new stuff juxtaposed on top of old stuff, ie humans plus new technology and changes tehreof, or aliens whoa re yet similar enough to be nearly comprehendable to us.
 
I read the Iron Dragon's Daughter, or most of it, but I didn't like it very much. I think some books may be more fun to write than they are to read.

The appearance of universal conventions in fantasy is kind of illusory... there have just been so many poser authors that the genre has become pretty stagnant.

There is also a small problem with publishing/distribution, because the publishers (like Avon, I think) have slowly been merging fantasy and romance into a synthesized genre, with books like Silversword and that time traveler series. These are, in a sense, legitimate fantasy stories (or at least historical fantasy in the case of Silversword) but tend to adhere to romance novel conventions that make characterization grating for me.

Anyway...

Many popular fantasy novels have an aspect relating to strength of character, which is nice as a literary premise but is not perfect from the standpoint of good writing; an example of the total failure of this concept is The Dark is Rising by Susan Cooper.

(In The Dark is Rising, the main character very quickly learns that the villain is totally powerless and that he is in no danger as long as he believes in himself. This removes any sense of dramatic tension that the story might have had. Similarly, in David Eddings' Malloreon, we learn over the course of the story that one of the characters is a newborn god, and that all things in the world basically bend to his will.)

Relying on tangible willpower as a mechanism for resolving plot complications removes one of the main sources of tension that a story can have, that of an insoluble problem; having read so many of them now, it is difficult to appreciate a story where our heroes can save the world by concentrating hard enough.

Much as I dislike using Terry Brooks as an example, the Sword of Shannara included a villain who couldn't be defeated by normal means because he was a kind of Cartesian paradox, a dead person who tricked himself into believing that he still existed. This was philosophically annoying but at least supplied a sort of different mechanic for that villain, slightly better than in the Elfstones where some demons just kind of come out of a hole. (I still consider the Elfstones to be a better read though...)

The fantasy genre itself has simply become mired in unfortunate conventions... there isn't any reason why a more original story couldn't be written, but as you say they don't often get published. Ask yourself, for instance, why the Dungeons and Dragons movie that came out a while ago started with the characters being Sucked into the Magic Dungeon Master's Guide? I would have thought that was a plot point we all wanted to avoid...

There's more originality and speculation in present-day science fiction, which is one of the reasons why I haven't read any fantasy stories for a while.

In the main, I don't like reading stories where
- In the past, Man destroyed the world and his own civilization with vast energies
- evil 'is an illusion' and can be dispelled by clapping your hands or some other such trivial action
- one person inherits some blood factor that makes them "the hero of prophecy"
- hell, prophecies in general, can't stand 'em

If you look at stories like Twilight Kingdoms or Wizenbeak, they don't encompass the world in their scope, they don't involve a Good vs. Evil conflict, and they don't really conclude with "they lived happily ever after". This doesn't necessarily make them good books, Twilight Kingdoms was like a barroom brawl that lasted for three hundred pages, but at least it can suck on its own merits instead of sucking along with everyone else.
 
DAmn, ive been agreeing with you on just about everything youve posted on the entire damn forum, and you disnt like the iron dragons daughter? Heathen.
In some ways i agree, it wasnt so nice to read, but then thats what you get when you stray away from the mainstream, stuff that is harder to read and understand because its different, not so normal. Or thats how I see it, but htis is a subjective part of life.

youve read susan cooper? I read all that when I was 15, thought it was great then, dont remember it being as simplistic as you just said it was. you are american, arent you? If you are, i kind of got ther impression ages ago that nobody outside the UK knew about susan cooper. But then if you were Uk based surely you would know about alan garner.

"having read so many of them now, it is difficult to appreciate a story where our heroes can save the world by concentrating hard enough."

I have a story in progress that goes way beyond that.


"The appearance of universal conventions in fantasy is kind of illusory... there have just been so many poser authors that the genre has become pretty stagnant."

Aorry to get logical on you, but isnt a genre full of stuff that is similar and stagnant effectively the same as one with universal conventions?

I read the sword of shannara and htought what sort of rip off crap is this? At least "magician" starts sort of bad, but kind of transcends it, whereas Brooks never really did, its like he took a cop out ending.

YOu know, it seems to me youar emainly picking on the kind of dungeons and dragons kind of fantasy, whereas there is a kind of fantasy different to it, I just cant think what its called just now, and where ive seen it.

There is more speculaiton in modern scifi, but theres also a great deal of non- science, as I have bemoaned over various previous threads, you can find them if you dig back a few months. Too much "wibble wibble nanotech blah blah wormholes rhubarb rhubarb" kind of stuff.
 
I agree that Sword of Shannara was a painfully obvious rip of LOTR, enough that it offended me when I was twelve...

As for The Dark is Rising, I thought it was okay when I was a kid, but I went back and read it a couple of years ago and realized that the villain was a total paper tiger, and never did anything but threaten because that was all he was capable of.

It was sort of like if, in the Wheel of Time, all that the Lord of Lies could do was that wine cup dream, over and over again.

"Drink. C'mon, drink!"

When the struggle in a story is internal like this, the main character trying not to give in to the endless looming harassment of the villain, it removes some of the sense of danger... it reduces the terms of the conflict to Our Hero, locked in a room with a big red button that says "Give Up" on it, trying not to press it. Sitting on their hands, biting their nails, averting their eyes. Will he press the button?

Big Bad Lord: Go on, press the button.
Hero: Noooo!
BBL: It'll go "click"! It'll be so satisfying.
H: Noooo!
BBL: It's easy, just extend your finger like this...
H: NOOO!

Ad nauseum. In the Wheel of Time there was also a sense of immediate physical danger that gave the characters' tests of willpower some added urgency.

As for your comment about stagnation, uh... yes and no. If a genre is defined by a convention, then it could be considered universal. On the other hand, if you wrote a story about unicorns and magic crystals and spells and swordplay and monsters, and it didn't have the G vs. E theme, would that make it "not fantasy"? Probably not... it would still score high enough on the fantasy scale to be considered a part of the genre.

In any case, even if a genre is characterized by poor quality, that doesn't make poor quality an entrance requirement.

With respect to the unscience fiction, yeah, I'm forced to agree. Some stories use nanotech to virtually replace magic as a plot mover/resolver. (One story that didn't was Bloom...)

Usually when a plot mover is introduced into a story, we have some idea of how much we need to know about it; the One Ring, for instance, is described as having great arbitrary power which we generally understand is not to fall into the hands of anyone who would use it for anything... the Force (in the first SW trilogy anyway) was a vastly increased intuition/telepathy/telekinesis, whose uses and capacities were illustrated within the story by the way it was used.

To contrast the Force to the nanotech excuse - I am of the belief that an explanation of the Force (midichlorians &c) actually weakened its narrative effect. In some stories things are better left to the imagination.

If we look at a story like the Magic of Recluce, we see that the author tried to make a magical system that was coherent and understandable to the reader; the explanation weakened somewhat as the story went along, but the attempt was still an honest one. (I can't speak for the sequels, The Order War &c.)

On the other hand, in Harry Potter, despite the fact that the narrative follows a person who is supposed to be in magic school, the workings of magic remain almost entirely a mystery. Given the way it seems to function, I thus far have assumed that some part of the Harry Potter universe is responsible for magic, and is a sentient being that interprets people's words and actions as being the base requirements for a certain magical effect. However, I'm working on incomplete information in this case because the narrative does not focus on magic except as a plot mover.

The degree to which a plot mover like magic or nanotech should be explained mostly relates to its intuitiveness as a concept (which is highly variable from one reader to another) and the degree to which the author wants to or is capable of exploring the concept.

Many authors do not have the science background necessary to explain the operation of nanotech within a story. With magic, the magical mechanics don't need to conform to scientific theory, but should still probably be consistent if they are going to be explained. Usually coherence is key...
 
Most of the author's being tottered back and forth around here I have read, some I agree are writing / wrote the best the genres has to offer. Others I wouldn't say so (R. Jordan).

Anyway, here's my list of recomendations -

Phillip K. Dick - The Man in the High Castle (Amazing!), Dr. Bloodmoney, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?
Issac Asimov - Foundation Series, Robot Stories
William Gibson - Neuromancer and its followups
Robert A. Heinlein - The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Stranger in a Strange Land
Joe Halderman - The Forever War
Ray Bradbury - Martian Chronicles, Fahrenheit 451
Frank Herbert - Dune, I enjoyed the sequels but I know many did not.
Douglas Adams - Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
Roger Zelazny - Lord of Light, Amber Chronicles,
John Brunner - Stand on Zanzibar
Dan Simmons - Hyperion and Endymion books
Stephen Donaldson - Gap Series


George R. R Martin - A Song of Ice and Fire, finally something fresh in fantasy!
Bernard Cornwell - Warlord Chronicles, realistic take on Arthur
Robin Hobb - Farseer Trilogy, FitzChivalry is so fascinating
Tad Williams - Memory, Sorrow and Thorn
Guy Gavriel Kay - Lions of Al-Rassan is one of the most beautiful books I've ever had the pleasure of reading.
Terry Pratchett - Discworld! Anything that can make me laugh is considered awseome in my mind.
Phillip Pullman - His Dark Materials
Neil Gaiman - American Gods
Steven Erikson - THe Malazan Book of the Fallen
 
Maybe you guys can help. I've been looking for a collection of short stories by I believe Olaf Stapleton for a few years. Every story is about the creation of the soul and is written with pure genius. Any one who can help me find this book, I will appreciate it undyingly!

Thankyou

-kupotek
KittySafe Ntwrk.
 
I think some of the books are available at Amazon or Barnesnoble, paperback and used too...

Last and First Men and Star Maker : Two Science Fiction Novels
by Olaf Stapledon (Author)

Publishers: let customers search inside this book
List Price: $12.95
Price: $10.36
Availability: Usually ships within 24 hours


40 used & new from $2.95

Edition: Paperback
 
Just finished the Foundation book.

Man, that mutton-chopped hag is brilliant.
 
the disc world is the best interlectual fantasy i have ever read, i only have about 4 books till the im out (PLEASE WRITE MORE:D)

fiona macantosh is really good, she is a newish author and only have 5 books out devided into 3 for the trinity and 2 for the quickening (which isnt finished yet)

eddings ROCKS
the 2 new eddings books are SOO up to standard and alithas (or how ever you spell it) was one of my all time fav

fiest is ok but way down on fav authors

timora piece is really good too, little girly but i like them (unfortunatly they are classifide as childrens books which makes checking if she has any new ones out embarasing)
 
I like terry pratchet, but for me the best fantasy writer of all time is Piers Anthony, he has written many books all of which are widely available.

The Magic of Xanth series 29 books (more coming soon)
The Split infinity trilogy 7 books (also known as the Aprentice adept series)
The Incarnations of imortality series 7 books
Bio of a space tyrant series 6 books
Mode series 4 books

so far todate Piers has written 126 books so there is plenty to read, not all of them are fantasy though some of them are sci-fi.
Anyway i will now stop beating the drum for him, it's just that nobody seems to mention him on these forums. :D
 
Weeell, I've read a little of Piers Anthony, and liked it (though didnt htink it world shaking.), but various others i've met/ seen, say that xanth is crap and he's getting boring. Hence the lack of mention.
 
Fair do's, wouldn't say he was crap tho'. some of xanth is not great but you have to read the incarnations of immortality series, each book is about a different character, death, time, fate, war, earth, good and evil
click here to get a brief synopsis of each book.
 
2nd Pass is a new novel, just published last week. It is the first novel of a 9-book series. Check out the web site at www.2ndPass.com for some technical information, pretty amazing graphics of different vehicles and environments in the book, and lots of background information.

The book series is a future reality series. Space Industries Laboratory (SIL) is an orbital laboratory built by NASA that leases half of its space to corporations for development and manufacturing in zero gravity. A pissed off NASA employee sabotages the lab and sends it into an excentric orbit that passes near enough earth for contact only 4 months every 18 years. Second Pass is 36 years after the explosion. The inhabitants have created a non-Earth-reliant, sustainable environment and have declared themselves an independent nation. Power political forces from Earth are vying for control of this rogue nation.

The book is exciting and innovative. I hope you'll all check it out, buy a copy, look at the web site and jump on board a new sci-fi universe.

Graphic artist Ben Love of Chicago has created incredible graphic representations of the SIL universe, and will be continuously posting them onto the web site.


www.2ndPass.com
 
Samsung, what's wrong with Robert Jordan? It's one of the more addictive fantasy I've ever read, and I finished Terry Brooks (Shannara) and Eddings.

Tolkien wanted to create a modern myth and succeeded. I don't think anybody has had the resources to create truly new fantasy ever since, although many are arguably "better" stories than LOTR.
 
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