Book of Mormon: true or false?

[WildBlueYonder]

Originally posted by kmguru
The ancient war could be Mahabharat or before that Ramayan. If the archeological digs at Dwaraka produce good results,

Not much info, give better links than I found below, please:
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/scholars_of_false_history_of_india_are_a_dying_breed.htm
http://www.atributetohinduism.com/Dwaraka.htm
http://www.vihari.com/Divine/dwaraka.asp

it could establish a link to the jewish tribes - since vedas and kabalah has a common theme.

I think most of Kabballah came after Christianity, but I think it is syncretistic, not "kosher" to most jews:
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/kabb.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~lyam/KABBALAH.htm
http://www.digital-brilliance.com/kab/faq.htm#HowoldisKabbalah

In the mean time, the trade between India and China goes back thousands of years with a common border.

True about India & China. So if Israel & India traded, there should be a wealth of trade goods, arts & ideas besides just mysticism?

So, it is possible that the Native Americans could be the descendants of a group of Eurasians that moved on due to war.

The point of why I started this thread, was that I disagree that there is any proof of large-scale contacts with or between Eurasia & the Western Hemisphere. If Indian refugees had come here ( or Jewish refugees for that matter), there would be more proof also, such as languages (need to be Dravidian or Aryan), genetics (DNA), religion (did Native Americans forget Hindu gods so easily?), art (elephants are hard to forget), architecture ( the arch is very useful), technology (the wheel & metallurgy), & warfare (bows & arrows did not reach this hemisphere until the last millennium)

Mahabharat talks about nuclear weapons being used.

That should be easy to check, several isotopes have half-lives that last millions of years, get your giger counters & mass spectrometers ready for the proof.

In fact, people have to pass on knowledge via human memory. How can a sophisticated language such as Sanskrit (great for computer programming) be there without any paper to write on?

Many people have great oral traditions (that are still in use today) & many are very useful for various things. Being bilingual, (English & Spanish), I find both languages have various strengths & weaknesses. And knowing several speakers of Greek, Hmong, Arabic & Hebrew, I can say that each has ways of expressing ideas uniquely theirs & also very "universal" ways. Being in the stone age, did not make Native Peoples 'dumb', 'savage' or 'uncivilized', they just had another time schedule for their progress, culture, & civilizations. Read up on their ideas, arts & philosophies. So Sanskrit is good for comp programming, that proves what?

The descriptions are unmistakable. It is not farfecthing that after such a global exchange - people will revert to the stone age.

Different nuclear weapons, leave different radioactive fallout, need to see the data or do the research to find the proof. BTW, did all these radioactive-refugees mutate genetically & morph into 'RED Indians'? I don't think so, check the DNA research. Also, ancient texts assume that there are awesome powers available to gods &/or creators of the universe, so if these texts allude to nuclear destruction by inference, that is not good enough, they either need references to "sunbursts", "mushroom clouds", "wasting diseases" & "shadows" of the victims, a la Nagasaki & Hiroshima. The destruction & power is extreme, that's why Oppenheimer referred to the first a-bomb burst as an aspect of 'Shiva the Destroyer', “we have become death”. Please, some quotes & references to check your data? http://www.nyu.edu/globalbeat/southasia/ahmed080398.html

 

[kmguru]

It is a good idea to visit the Eastern Philosophy section to connect the dots. Besides, they are speculations until they become mainstream ideas - may be 20 years down the road.

Also check out 'past civilization' in Pseudoscience section.

 

[kmguru]

I think most of Kabballah came after Christianity, but I think it is syncretistic, not "kosher" to most jews:

Not so fast....I can cite links too...

The traditional origin of the Kabala closely resembles the opening sentences of the fourth discourse of The Bhagavad-Gita. According to the account, the Kabala is divine Wisdom which was first taught by God to a company of angels. Adam caught glimpses of these truths and passed his vision on to Noah. Noah communicated it unto Abraham, who in turn taught it to the Egyptians. Moses gained his knowledge in Egypt and passed it on to his seventy elders. From them the Kabala was transmitted orally until the year A.D. 80, when some of the teachings were committed to writing. At this point tradition stops and actual history begins. And from that history we can complete Krishna's sentence and say: "In the course of time the mighty art was lost."

more at: http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting/kabalists.html

 

[EvilPoet]

Although very much off topic ...

I thought this might be of interest.

In an age of spiritual awakening and deep religious turmoil there arose in Judaism a number of sects with heterodox ideas resulting from a mixture of inner compulsion and outside influence. Whether Gnostic sects existed on the periphery of Judaism before the advent of Christianity is a matter of controversy (see below); but there is no doubt that minim ("heretics") did exist in the tannaitic period and especially in the third and fourth centuries. In this period a Jewish Gnostic sect with definite antinomian tendencies was active in Sepphoris. There were also of course intermediate groups from which members of these sects gained an extended knowledge of theological material on ma'aseh bereshit and ma'aseh merkabah, and among these should be included the Ophites (snake worshippers) who were basically Jewish rather than Christian. From this source a considerable number of esoteric traditions were transmitted to Gnostics outside Judaism, whose books, many of which have been discovered in our own time, are full of such material -- found not only in Greek and Coptic texts of the second and third centuries but also in the early strata of Mandaic literature, which is written in colloquial Aramaic. Notwithstanding all the deep differences in theological approach, the growth of Merkabah mysticism constitutes an inner Jewish concomitant to Gnosis, and it may be termed "Jewish and rabbinic Gnosticism."

Excerpt taken from Kabbalah by Gershom Scholem

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Originally posted by kmguru
Not so fast....I can cite links too...

: http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting/kabalists.html

Not sure these are credible sources, the Theosophists want to prove their point of view (my nephew thinks some of this sounds like it came from "Galaxy Quest" about the Milosian Migration? Excerpts from these link http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting/kabalists.html

THE Theosophists of the Middle Ages drew their occult knowledge...
The traditional origin of the Kabala closely resembles…
The actual origin of the Kabala is somewhat different. At the beginning of our Fifth Race(1), about one million years ago, the knowledge which had been accumulated by thousands of generations of initiated Adepts was recorded in written form. The language used was Senzar, the secret sacerdotal tongue which preceded Sanscrit and was known to the Initiates from time immemorial…

And this?

Originally posted by kmguru
It is a good idea to visit the Eastern Philosophy section to connect the dots. Besides, they are speculations until they become mainstream ideas - may be 20 years down the road.

Also check out 'past civilization' in Pseudoscience section.

While many people on Sciforums are very credible, earnest & knowledgeable, this is not a researchable site or credible for that matter, it's called "Pseudoscience" for a reason. Need published research, verifiable data or original sources, like...

Originally posted by EvilPoet

Excerpt taken from Kabbalah by Gershom Scholem.

 

[kmguru]

Originally posted by Randolfo
Not sure these are credible sources, ...

While many people on Sciforums are very credible, earnest & knowledgeable, this is not a researchable site or credible for that matter, it's called "Pseudoscience" for a reason. Need published research, verifiable data or original sources, like...

I finally got it...especially the part "Sciforums is not a credible site..."

So...are you saying...anything you opine is just garbage....I can live with that.

BTW: As I said...most stuff we talk in Sciforums ... published research may be in the works and may take 10 to 15 years to be published and authenticated. Either you can join at the ground floor or wait like everybody else. I understand the reluctance on the leap...

With 6 million+ strong Mormons - the book must be as much true as virgin birth. After all we are talking about religion here. It is called "Religion" for a reason. There are plenty of original sources including Joseph Smith himself.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Originally posted by kmguru
I finally got it...especially the part "Sciforums is not a credible site..."

Don’t take it personal, but I'm sure you don't believe everything you read on these chatrooms, do you? That part of about, "At the beginning of our Fifth Race(1), about one million years ago", it's too much, it sounds like the ancient Aztec "Fifth Sun" belief & as a Mexican, I know old mythologies when I see them, do you?

So...are you saying...anything you opine is just garbage....I can live with that.

More than 99.99% of people use anonymous pseudonyms on the net, there is no way to check their sources, if they plagiarized, or if it's just made up stuff. So, yes people need to verify some of their info before it is taken as more than an opinion, even what I say.

BTW: As I said...most stuff we talk in Sciforums ... published research may be in the works and may take 10 to 15 years to be published and authenticated. Either you can join at the ground floor or wait like everybody else. I understand the reluctance on the leap...

Somehow this will always make me think, that, no, I didn't miss a thing; "At the beginning of our Fifth Race(1), about one million years ago"

With 6 million+ strong Mormons - the book must be as much true as virgin birth. After all we are talking about religion here. It is called "Religion" for a reason.

You're funny, too funny

There are plenty of original sources including Joseph Smith himself.

Now, just because it's written down, doesn't mean that it's true, but it does mean that we can check them out, now that's why it needs sources. And half of what Joe wrote can be refuted, not that mormons will agree, but the archeology, genetics & history backs that up!

 

[kmguru]

And half of what Joe wrote can be refuted, not that mormons will agree, but the archeology, genetics & history backs that up!

In case someone missed the big one....the book of Mormon is the third book in the Bible series. NO human can back up regarding GOD through archeology, genetics & history.

It is a book about religion and not science...get it...???

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Originally posted by kmguru
In case someone missed the big one....the book of Mormon is the third book in the Bible series. NO human can back up regarding GOD through archeology, genetics & history.

It is a book about religion and not science...get it...???

That's interesting that you should say that, if you haven't read the Book of Mormon already, you should, but while you're doing that, just write down any interesting ideas, characters or quick chapter summaries. You will see that this is something that claims to be 'true' history, that masquerades as a 'religious' book, but which is a 'science fiction' novel. Read the claims. Here is some info & links that I posted previously on another thread...

Originally posted by Randolfo
False prophet, false religion, false hopes!!!
Let me repeat some questions:
“First, explain to everybody what the "Book of Mormon" is about?
Who are the major players?
What is the "story" about?
What happens to all those tribes?
What are the other claims? “
And so again I state:
"My point is, that the BoM is a piece of fiction, it may be the "FIRST" true science fiction or science fantasy novel ever written, but it's still fiction!!! None of its claims can stand up to modern archeology, just post any of its claims in a science chat board or ask non-mormon archeology or anthropology teachers if there is any proof of all these peoples mentioned in the BoM? It should be easy, those events are only a couple of thousand years in the past!”

Interesting Books to read:
Ethan Smith's book “View of the Hebrews” http://www.watchman.org/lds/bkmrmrev.htm

Linda King Newell & Valeen Tippets Avery
“Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith”, 2nd ed.
(University of Illinois Press, 1994), 394 pages, paperback, ISBN 0-252-06291-4
The Thorn in Joseph's Side
In Nauvoo, 38-year-old Joseph repeatedly used the claim of divine revelation to coerce teenage girls to become his wives.
http://www.irr.org/mit/enigma.html

“No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith: The Mormon Prophet”
by Fawn McKay Brodie, Peter Dimock (Editor)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_1/102-8690605-5854566?v=glance&s=books

Interesting info:
“The Old Testament tells us that Zedekiah witnessed the slaying of his sons by Nebuchadnezzar's men at Riblah, before he was carried captive to Babylon (2 Kings 25:7). However, the Book of Mormon claims that Mulek, one of Zedekiah's sons, managed to escape.”
http://www.mormonstudies.com/parallel.htm

“In July 1835 Joseph Smith acquired some Egyptian scrolls, which he immediately started to translate, claiming that the rolls contained the writings of Abraham and Joseph of Egypt. He also began work on an Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar and discovered that the hieroglyphs on the papyri were similar to both Hebrew and to the characters on the plates which contained the Book of Mormon. Since their discovery, the papyri have been examined by Egyptologists. Because Joseph copied characters from the papyri and wrote out his translation next to them, it has been possible to determine exactly which one of the papyri supposedly contained the writings of Abraham. This is often referred to as the small Sensen fragment. This papyrus has been translated and is nothing more than a very common funerary text, dating between 100 B.C. and A.D. 100, taken from the Book of Breathings, which is itself a shorter version of the Egyptian Book of the Dead. These texts were placed in coffins or burial chambers to assist the soul of the deceased in the afterlife.”
http://www.mormonstudies.com/seer2.htm

“The underlying theme of the Book of Mormon is the falling away of the Nephites, the clean and blessed people of the American continent. This group of people were supposedly annihilated by the Lamanites. Their remnant being the indigenous people of the American continent. Joseph Smith believed that many of the American Indians were decsendants of these Lamanites.”
http://www.mindspring.com/~engineer_my_dna/mormon/masonry.htm

Organizations working among the LDS:
http://www.concernedchristians.org
http://www.lds-mormon.com

some Mormonism links:
http://www.farms.byu.edu
http://www.jefflindsay.com/MyPages.shtml#religion

Check these links for stuff on mormon origins & researchers.
http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/why.htm
http://www.lds-mormon.com/sor.shtml
http://www.lds-mormon.com/quest.shtml

Check this out for temple rituals & designs:
http://www.concernedchristians.org/newsletter/august_2002.html

Interesting links:
http://www.nccg.org/NCMM/LDS2-4.html
http://www.si.edu/resource/faq/nmnh/origin.htm
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/israel/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/first/
http://www.chattanooga.net/cita/mtdna.html
http://www.nmnh.si.edu/anthro/outreach/indian_l.htm
http://www.si.edu/resource/faq/nmnh/origin.htm
http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/...scripts_eom.htm
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/teache...02_vikings.html
http://www.nmnh.si.edu/anthro/outreach/indian_l.htm

Native American sites:
http://www.geocities.com/bigorrin/iaq.htm#3
http://www.gbso.net/Skyhawk/language.htm

Interesting DNA research:
http://www.lds-mormon.com/indians_lamanites.shtml[/
http://www.ich.ucl.ac.uk/cmgs/ymito.htm

African Eve link: http://www.virginia.edu/~woodson/courses/aas102/articles/tierney.html

Y Chromosome study link: http://www.familytreedna.com/nature97385.html

Language links:
http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/travel/ldumois/maya/ldmayanumbers.html
http://www.bbc.peachnet.edu/academic_svcs/art_science/dubay/mexico/mayan_math.html
http://www.mc.maricopa.edu/~refflan...d/mayan_lost_tribes/maya_writing/writing.html
http://www.greatscott.com/hiero/
http://members.aol.com/egyptnew/hiero.html
http://www.isomedia.com/homes/mjohns/calc.htm


Numeral links:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/healthscience/science/wonderquest/2002-06-28-base-60.htm
http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/HistTopics/Greek_numbers.html
http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/HistTopics/Babylonian_numerals.html
http://www.math.wichita.edu/history/topics/num-sys.html#qui
http://www.transparent.com/languagepages/hebrew/overview.htm
http://www.jewfaq.org/alephbet.htm
http://www.yahuah.org/izintro.html
http://www.mandarintools.com/numbers.html
http://saxakali.com/COLOR_ASP/chinamh1.htm
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_numerals

Calendar links:
http://saxakali.com/COLOR_ASP/chinese.htm
http://www.transimage.com/Cal/CalChi.html
http://www.iahushua.com/ST-RP/Calendar.html
http://www.bible-history.com/jewishyear/jewishyear_nelson_s_illustrated_bible_dictionary.html
http://www.inkemetic.org/calnfest.htm
http://www.egyptologyonline.com/astronomy.htm
http://www.lifepositive.com/mind/culture/maya/mayan.asp
http://edj.net/mc2012/fap13.html
http://www.rocknroll.force9.co.uk/faceHair/maya.htm
http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/travel/dpalfrey/dpaztec.html


See if you can find any connection between ancient Mayas and ancient Israelites?

Try sending some of the research done by mormons to archeology, history & linguistics departments at universities, see what they say? I realize this is a lot of data, but all knowledge needs research & interest to back it up, or understand it, 'yes' or 'no'? And there is no way the BoM is the 3rd part of the Bible, maybe the 4th pre-prequel part of the 'Star Wars" saga, or maybe "Battlefield Earth"?

 

[WildBlueYonder]

True history, fit for an archeology dept?

If the BoM is true, then all world history books will need to be changed, this is 'earth shattering' revelations, that 'reformed egyptian' was spoken here & that 'jewish exiles' walked among these shores 2 thousand years before Cristobal Colon convinced the Queen of Castile, to fund an expedition to the 'Indies'.

Stop the presses!!!

Can anyone find any major university that has used the BoM as a research tool (BYU excepted of course!)??? It's time that someone used the BoM to map out the Western Hemisphere for Lamanite & Nephite sites, like Heinrich Schliemann did for ancient Troy! Has anyone? They should be major tourist sites afterwards!


http://webcampus3.stthomas.edu/paschons/language_http/essays/schliemann.html

 

[WildBlueYonder]

mormon intellectual response to BoM inconsistencies

This is written with many footnotes, so it is very long, but very interesting:


http://mormonscripturestudies.com/bomor/twm/lamgen.asp

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Found it!!!

Found my copy of The BoM after moving, intro states that the Lamanites "are the principal ancestors of the American Indians."

If that is true, then all Native American languages should be related to the "Reformed Egyptian" that these Jewish people supposedly spoke. Anyone with a basic knowledge of similar languages would be able to prove that easily.

So, I am wondering if any one knows Arabic, Hebrew, Coptic, Aramaic or Assyrian & knows what the following names found in the BoM may possibly mean:

Abinadi
Ablom
Aiath
Alma
Alpha
Angola
Cohor
Cumenihah
Cumorah
Enos
Ether
Helaman
Irreantum
Isabel
Jacobugath
Jarom
Laman
Lehi
Mormon
Moroni
Mosiah
Mulek
Nephi
Sam

Just curious

 

[kmguru]

Cumorah ?

Sounds like a name from Earth: Final Conflict...anyway. Here is something interesting:

NEW YORK (CNN) -- In his new book, "1421: The Year China Discovered America" (William Morrow), Gavin Menzies claims that a massive Chinese fleet of huge junks and support ships made a two-year circumnavigation of the globe, with extensive exploration of the Americas, nearly a century before Magellan and Columbus.

Needless to say, his assertion has raised an international flurry of debate.

The book has already garnered mixed reviews from the British media, as well as skeptical articles from The New York Times Magazine and Salon.com.

Menzies is unfazed by the reviews. Indeed, even he was surprised at the results of his research, he said in an interview in the New York offices of his American publisher, Morrow.

German cartographer Martin Waldseemüller produced this map in 1507. It portrays the vast majority of the world today, excluding the Australian mainland.

 

[TruthSeeker]

kmguru,

In case someone missed the big one....the book of Mormon is the third book in the Bible series. NO human can back up regarding GOD through archeology, genetics & history.

What the book of Mormon has to do with the Bible??:bugeye:
Two totally different books...:bugeye:

 

[kmguru]

May be Mormons know something that you may not. They figured, if new testament got attached to the old testament, why not the BOM?

BTW: I have posted here before (in archive somewhere) as to how you can tell BOM is true. Here it is again.

Several years ago, two beautiful ladies showed up at my front door to convert me to LDS (Mormons). They had a simple proposal. Before going to bed, I pray to God and ask Him if the BOM is true. The following 3 possibilities can happen.

1. God would say: It is false, KMGuru - you should know that by now. If that happens, the beauitiful girls declared, it is really the Satan that told me the untruth and for me to try harder for the rest of my life until the answer is Yes.

2. God said - BOM is true, then I am the new member...

3. God did not show up in my dream. That means I am a bad boy looking too much to their clevages and keep trying until No.1 happens.

Since I was married at the time, I had to keep my meeting with them short and gave them a book that was given to me by a Hare Krishna person at the airport and told them to do the same.

Never saw them again.

 

[TruthSeeker]

WHAT THE HECK IS BOM!?!?!?
Note: not angry, just surprised...

 

[TruthSeeker]

Oh... "Book Of Mormon"...
DUUUUUHHH...:bugeye:
I'm really tired now...

 

[TruthSeeker]

kmguru,

I think your argument means nothing. Besides, it is VERY explicit that the BOM is NOT in the Bible... Mormon was a moron... He was totally lost when he wrote such thing...:bugeye:

 

[kmguru]

A Mormon only becomes a Moron, if you take out his Mojo the "m"....just some silly thought....

 

[TruthSeeker]

...
Do you realize the importance and the danger there is in believing in something that is not True...?