Black Magic

I think the expression "Black magic" came from the catholic church out of general disapproval for magic in the dark ages.

Outside technologies/sources have often received cynicism by would-be
monopolies. "Don't buy those canadian prescriptions!".


the world was eventually proved to be round.
the stars do not rotate around the earth.
witches were realized to not be the cause of ergot fungus poisening.
mind altering substances are not from the devil.


I've read that Magic came from the magi in Babylon as did some chaldean arts/technologies.
Magic is apparently a technology kept from academia like alchemy,
soothsaying/divinations, sorcery and others condemned by christianity.

Apparently there have been proliferations of exotic technologies in ancient
times where someone deemed it appropriate to step in and put humans back in their place(probably for a very good reason).


According to the egyption book of magic Moses's birth and leading of the
Hebrews was fortold hundreds of years beforehand on burial script. I don't
know if it was for a certain bury-ee. Apparently, Jesus was not the only
egyption resident with prophetic birthing where male children were slaughtered
at his birth and who had prodigiuos command of the atmosphere. I don't
think we've seen the end of that momentum.

Apparently Moses or Aaron was pointing a stick around egypt and caused a lot of greif . . . .
maybe there's something to that aboriginal beleif, "if you get a stick pointed
at you, you will die". Maybe it matters who's holding the stick.

I can post a jpg pic of a page of the egyption book of magic if anyone cares
about it.
 
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danielb said:
Magic is apparently a technology kept from from academia like alchemy,
soothsaying/divinations, sorcery and others condemned by christianity.
Click to expand...

None of those are "technologies" but rather beliefs. Magic was a part of ritual and belief certainly longer than it could be written and magical thinking is evident in the archaeological record as far back as 12,000 BCE, though I can only think of a specific artifact in Çatalhoyuk dating to before 7000 BCE at the moment: a goddess figure found in a grain storage bin, likely the intent was to appease the goddess of fertility and obtain bountiful crops.

Magical thinking isn't new to humans, we still engage in it even under the light of modern technology. Baseball players are good examples, so are those that post in this thread with the frame of mind that such ancient beliefs were lost "technologies" and that their "magic" produced tangible results rather than simply influenced the minds of willing believers of their time.

danielb said:
Apparently there have been proliferations of exotic technologies in ancient
times where someone deemed it appropriate to step in and put humans back in their place(probably for a very good reason).
Click to expand...

What is the evidence for this?

danielb said:
Apparently Moses or Aaron was pointing a stick around egypt and caused a lot of greif . . . .
maybe there's something to that aboriginal beleif, "if you get a stick pointed
at you, you will die". It just depends on whose holding the stick.
Click to expand...

You do realize that the aboriginals he's referring to are on another continent, right? They are descended from the same common ancestor as the rest of us, but the divergence took place far longer ago than the myth of Moses. More than 50,000 years BP. I doubt it to be more likely that an oral tradition (no writing until around 3250 BCE in Mesopotamia/Near East) could sustain that superstition more easily than the aboriginal cultures could invent their own due to their own magical thinking.

danielb said:
I can post a jpg pic of a page of the egyption book of magic if anyone cares
about it.
Click to expand...

What would be the point? Is it more than 4,000 years old? If so, it belongs in a museum for all to see anyway.
 
thre are all forms of magic. a fom has come from zoroastrianism whcih was a dualstic form........others are more grounded from earth religions

thing is. science-heads refuse to believe in some kind of other power than their mechansitic world view will allow....but i am thnakful for this. for if subtel living reality WERE harnassed by the mindset that createdd the atomic bomb etc, whatthe fuk....?! thank the GODDESs it IS subtle and slippery. OTHERWISE it'd be patented already, and thousands of underpaid exploited workers would be doing the business details in Calcutta!
 
There are, indeed, all forms of magic. But they all have one thing in common. They all exist in the fantasies of human beings. Nobody has ever demonstrated a testable, properly observable case of "magic." And there's a million dollar reward waiting for the first to do so.
 
danielb's deleted post:
danielb said:
Inordinate knowlege/skills are a matter of trust.

Untrusting type personalities typically find certain types of understanding &
experiences with-held from them. This is justly a reciprocation of the
underlying predisposition. Why go the extra mile to prove a valuable matter
to someone predisposed to distrust you?

This is how faith interacts between diverse beings.
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"Untrusting type personalities typically find certain types of understanding & experiences with-held from them."

Ahh... the old "negative waves hypothesis." Who or what witholds these "understandings" and "experiences" from the skeptic?

"Why go the extra mile to prove a valuable matter to someone predisposed to distrust you?"

There are a million reasons.
 
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danielb's deleted post:
danielb said:
The topic is way out of your league if you are talking money.

No insult intended.
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If you're suggesting that someone with an alleged "psi" capability would automatically not care about materialistic or monetary gain, then you are more naive and ignorant that you've appeared to date.

One thing that is common among all people is the desire for status. I don't care how altruistic you claim to be or how enlightened you try to seem, the desire for status affects us all.

This topic is as simple as that. Magical thinking is at the center of it all. Shamans and religious figures have exploited this desire in men since long before the advent of writing. Kings and commoners alike have turned to oracles at Delphi for guidance in exchange for payment; Babylonian priests and Magi received payment, reward, and favor from city-kings for their services; grandiose temples rivaled palaces as monumental architecture in ancient Mesopotamia; Ziggurats of the Near East and Sanctuaries of Greece received offerings of the best livestock and goods in order for believers to pay tribute to their gods.

If you think these rituals and cult rites have nothing to do with magical thinking, then you aren't looking deep enough. Greek sanctuaries like the Nekromonteion or telesterions devoted to Demeter were mysterious and magical and their preists attended to rites and rituals that involved stressing or even drugging participants to the point of hallucination through the use of sleep deprivation, physical activity, mental stress, wine, toxins, and out-right deception as in the Nekromonteion.

There was no magic, just drugs and deception. Fascinating stuff, but the deceptions of the "magic" played upon the belief systems of the participants and created, added to or perpetuated the wealth and status of culture.

The same thing occurs today with snake-handling Baptists in West Virginia, faith-healing evangelists in Oklahoma, tarot card readers in Buffalo, astrologers in Des Moines, Curanderas in El Paso, and Remote Viewing instructors advertising on the internet.

Its all about money, status, and/or prestige of some sort. To think otherwise is naive.

No insult intended.
 
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danielb said:
Apparently there have been proliferations of exotic technologies in ancient times where someone deemed it appropriate to step in and put humans back in their place(probably for a very good reason).
Click to expand...

But you still didn't answer my question: where is the evidence to support this statement?
 
danielb's deleted post:
danielb said:
3 instances from genesis.
relocation from the garden, the tower of babel and the flood.
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Three myths from genesis, you mean. Genesis is a work of literature that is clearly borrowed from other written and oral traditions of its time. You might see this thread for more information: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=44721

But at any rate, what "exotic technologies" did yawheh/elohim "set humans" back a bit for?
 
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For those that think I'm having a conversation with myself, let me point out that there were posts by danielb intermixed, however he/she deleted them for reasons known only to him/her.

I replaced all of his/her posts in my quoted texts, however, to maintain the context.
 
I'm fairly certain the stick thing you're talking about refers to Aboriginal Witch-Doctor Types. They have some sort of stick/staff/thingy and some sort of ritual where if it ends up pointing at you, you're doooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooomed!
 
SkinWalker said:
danielb's deleted post:


If you're suggesting that someone with an alleged "psi" capability would automatically not care about materialistic or monetary gain, then you are more naive and ignorant that you've appeared to date.

d))many Indigenous people had no concept of property. So what do you mean all people with 'psi ability' want 'status'?

One thing that is common among all people is the desire for status. I don't care how altruistic you claim to be or how enlightened you try to seem, the desire for status affects us all.

d))is that so? where do you get your research from dude?

This topic is as simple as that. Magical thinking is at the center of it all. Shamans and religious figures have exploited this desire in men since long before the advent of writing.

D))_you are talking about patriarchy and its concept of ownership. and yes this affected male-oriented shamanism. But in Goddess tradition there was no longing for staus. For example in ancient Greece, the Dionysian rituals led by women included all people including slaves.

Kings and commoners alike have turned to oracles at Delphi for guidance in exchange for payment; Babylonian priests and Magi received payment, reward, and favor from city-kings for their services; grandiose temples rivaled palaces as monumental architecture in ancient Mesopotamia; Ziggurats of the Near East and Sanctuaries of Greece received offerings of the best livestock and goods in order for believers to pay tribute to their gods.

d)))yes. but we have to distinguish patriarchal-influenced maggic and earth religious magic. The latter is not earth negative, and thius doesn't hold to the hierarchal structure that the earth-negative or monotheistic religions designed

If you think these rituals and cult rites have nothing to do with magical thinking, then you aren't looking deep enough. Greek sanctuaries like the Nekromonteion or telesterions devoted to Demeter were mysterious and magical and their preists attended to rites and rituals that involved stressing or even drugging participants to the point of hallucination through the use of sleep deprivation, physical activity, mental stress, wine, toxins, and out-right deception as in the Nekromonteion.

There was no magic, just drugs and deception. Fascinating stuff, but the deceptions of the "magic" played upon the belief systems of the participants and created, added to or perpetuated the wealth and status of culture.

d)))hah...how do you KNOW all this. Dear me, ypu are tying to explain MEANING. it is the epitome of the positivist scientific arrogance you are revealing in flying colours to us man. I am not being defensive. I am just amazed you fel you can explain to me what my FEELING means, and other peoples. Including our ancestors from many moons ago. Arrogance par excellance!

The same thing occurs today with snake-handling Baptists in West Virginia, faith-healing evangelists in Oklahoma, tarot card readers in Buffalo, astrologers in Des Moines, Curanderas in El Paso, and Remote Viewing instructors advertising on the internet.

D))look how he lumps em altogther and fits him in his neat draw marked 'woowoo'. 'Curanderos and snake handlers, sir.? oh, yes, this way' Reductive!

Its all about money, status, and/or prestige of some sort. To think otherwise is naive.
d))or CYNICAL!

No insult intended.
Click to expand...

of of couuuurse not...hah!
 
I'm not bothering to read the rest of your strange quoting style, the quoted type is too small and the delineation between your text and mine is vague. But I did read the first line:

duendy said:
many Indigenous people had no concept of property. So what do you mean all people with 'psi ability' want 'status'?
Click to expand...

Why would you think status and prestige is linked soley to the obtaining of property? There are many egalitarian societies in which the "Big Man" concept is about the status/prestige one obtains from distributing property or other forms of wealth.

If there was another point that you felt was valid or more significant, copy/paste it outside the quote tags so it can be more conveniently read.
 
SkinWalker said:
I'm not bothering to read the rest of your strange quoting style, the quoted type is too small and the delineation between your text and mine is vague. But I did read the first line:

D)))))o DEAR. whays it only you have maoned about not being able to see where my quotes are?. why so lazy-eyed. though if you are watning to AVOID replying that's another story. it's up to you


Why would you think status and prestige is linked soley to the obtaining of property? There are many egalitarian societies in which the "Big Man" concept is about the status/prestige one obtains from distributing property or other forms of wealth.

DDDDD))))) give several examples so i can understand the context.


If there was another point that you felt was valid or more significant, copy/paste it outside the quote tags so it can be more conveniently read.
Click to expand...

just to ask, would you ban magic books for kids? for example in school we had books which were all about fantastic magical journeys, eg., The Lion the Wtich and the Wardrobe. Noww...would you let your child read it. and/or would you let her/him read it , and then give said child a lecture that it is only fantasy and he mustn't become corrupted by its theme

would you be rally not-nice and sowp it when he was sleeping with a Richard Dawkins book

which?
 
Banning books is yet another symptom of magical thinking among people. They seem to think that by "banning" books that the knowlege can be controlled or limited. A sound education and well-developed critical thinking skills are all one really needs to see through the BS of magical thinking.

Fantasy literature, whether it be from Lewis, Rowling, Tolkein, or even Lucas is fun. Most people can temporarily suspend disbelief and enjoy tales about witches, hobbits and jedi knights, then return to reality without believing that ancient, or even contemporary, people have special "powers."

I concede, however, that you, perhaps, cannot.
 
I have for three years worked with people(s) who were accused of practising black magic. Their villages are easy to recognize, because they have some unique features. One example is that coconut trees will not grow in such a village. They have to follow a strict regime and have lots of rules to keep. BTW, this is also a way to recognize somebody able to perform (black) magic - they will act in a certain way. For example when eating together with such a person, and you happen to touch hands while taking food out of a bowl, that person (if a practicioner) will stop eating.
There are certain things I observed when there:
- Colleagues who were most afraid seemed to get most affected.
- Everybody denies they practice BLACK magic. They just claim they have some abilities that not so many people have.
- (Black) magic cannot be done easily. It is rarely used (if ever), and only to harm people that are a danger to the community. A practicioner violating this rule is banned from the village.
- In order to have this ability, one has to work hard (taboos, food, mental exercises). It is not like you have this ability and can perform. You have to work on it.
- Those people are not hostile; quite the opposite.
- Whenever I asked for proof, I was denied it, or things did not happen as foretold. However, their remarks about my life (which they could not know) and coming from people of different villages) coincided. All of them told me, for instance, that something important will happen in my life when I am XX years old. Now I am one year older and have to say that I don't feel like that was true.

Hope that helps.
 
What origins have you traced so far and to where? What sorts of breakthroughs do you mean in Greece, India and Egypt, and do you see these as related?

By the way, I'm not being cynical, I'm asking for your opinion as this is an area of study for me in anthropology.

@Sparkle: What country did you observe this in? It sounds a bit like West African practices. Perhaps Hatian (which has origins in West Africa).
 
Those technologies and cult practices are, indeed, interesting. The divination/oracle usage in ancient Greece is an interest of mine, though I've not pursued it nearly to the extent I'd like. There is some very suggestive correlations between oracles and natural phenomena such as the Oracle at Delphi and the gases emitted from a fault that the Oracle actually descended into as part of the process of divination. The gas (I'll need to look at my notes to jog my memory) has the effect of causing hallucination.

Some of the technologies were very imprecise, such as Egyptian burial practices, but we have to remember that ancient people weren't stupid, they were every bit as intelligent as modern people.
 
@Richard Head
@Skinwalker
I'm in Asia. Those things are quite universal I guess. That's also a reason why I tend to think that SOMETHING must be there... You can find black and white magic everywhere. Maybe it's also just a manifestation of the human desire to mess around with other people's minds...
 
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