Black holes may not exist!

I note you've shifted the discussion away from Schwarzschild coordinates. Do you concede the four points I raised in [POST=3157433]post #98[/POST], including the fact that elevating the Schwarzschild coordinates to a privileged status is fundamentally in conflict with the principle of general covariance that GR is based on?
Absolutely not. Regardless of the problems GR produces for us in defining "now", I think we can all agree that any definition of it which connects two time-like separated points would be a poor one. Do you disagree with me on this? Because you can change labels all you want, including the definition of time-like separation to be compatible with Kruskal coordinates, but most humans appreciate the difference between yesterday and tomorrow. The claim that the Kruskal chart should suffice in proving the existence of black holes today connects our points in spacetime with one which is time-like separated from us.

When you say that the time and space variables in GR are arbitrary I agree with you. When you say they are arbitrary when we are discussing "existence" I disagree.
 
Thin gruel, przyk. Coordinate systems are artefacts of measurements

No, they are man-made inventions defined for our convenience.


they don't actually exist.

So stop pretending they do. You're taking a coordinate system that Schwarzschild invented, seeing it says some strange things, and acting as if that were real. Take your own advice here.
 
As I said in the other BH thread, it's amazing how quick some will immediatley grab a sensationalist headline and run with it...albeit into a wall.
In actual fact, whether Hawking's latest work is accepted or not, it makes no difference to the reality of BH's and EH's now and in the future [and the past of course]

And according to the paper in the other BH thread, Hawking is probably correct. The only BH model Hawking is invalidating is one with no quantum effects for an accelerated observer. That obviously includes the fact that the classical GR BH does not entail quantum effects in that description.
A ho hum sort of situation.
 
Absolutely not. Regardless of the problems GR produces for us in defining "now", I think we can all agree that any definition of it which connects two time-like separated points would be a poor one. Do you disagree with me on this?

No, I don't disagree. (Or yes, any definition that calls two timelike separated points "now" would be a bad one.)


Because you can change labels all you want, including the definition of time-like separation to be compatible with Kruskal coordinates, but most humans appreciate the difference between yesterday and tomorrow.

Space- and timelike separation are not defined in terms of coordinates. They never were in GR. There is no redefinition or reinterpretation taking place whatsoever. In GR, space- and timelike separation are and always have been defined in terms of the (invariant) spacetime interval. You can practically read straight off the Schwarzschild metric that the Schwarzschild $$t$$ and $$r$$ coordinates are not timelike and spacelike, respectively, everywhere. For instance, take two infinitesimally separated events of Schwarzschild coordinates $$(t,\,r)$$ and $$(t,\, r \,+\, \mathrm{d}r)$$, occurring at the same Schwarzschild coordinate time $$t$$. The expression of the Schwarzschild metric tells you that the spacetime interval between these events is

$$\mathrm{d}s^{2} \,=\, (1 \,-\, r_{\mathrm{s}} / r)^{-1} \, \mathrm{d}r^{2} \,.$$​

This is positive when $$r \,>\, r_{\mathrm{s}}$$ (outside the event horizon), in which case the two events are spacelike separated, and negative when $$r \,<\, r_{\mathrm{s}}$$ (inside the event horizon), in which case GR is telling you that these two events, with the same $$t$$ coordinate, are actually timelike separated.


The claim that the Kruskal chart should suffice in proving the existence of black holes today connects our points in spacetime with one which is time-like separated from us.

The Kruskal chart should suffice, for someone who actually understands GR, because it is deliberately defined in such a way as to make causal relations very easy to visualise. Usually you have to calculate $$\mathrm{d}s^{2}$$ from the metric expression to see if two events are space- or timelike separated in GR (and at all events along a curve, if the two events aren't infinitesimally separated). But in Kruskal coordinates it's easy: they're defined in such a way that the metric expression takes the form

$$\mathrm{d}s^{2} \,=\, f(v,\, u)^{2} \bigl( -\, \mathrm{d}v^{2} \,+\, \mathrm{d}u^{2} \bigr) \,,$$​

so telling whether two events are space- or timelike separated is a simple matter of looking at whether $$- \, \Delta v^{2} \,+\, \Delta u^{2}$$ is positive or negative in Kruskal coordinates, even for finitely separated events.

See? No interpreting or trying to be clever or anything here. This is just taking a very basic definition from GR and applying it.
 
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Oh, and...

I've been through this with przyk before. He'll go quiet on us now because he has no adequate response to this inescapable upshot of infinite gravitational time dilation at the event horizon.

...wrong, as usual. Obviously.
 
I glad I'm not the only one to have noticed that.
That's why I called him an old Newtonian, for holding that the distant observer's coordinates are absolute in respect that nothing reaches and crosses the event horizon. That this is RJ's reasoning is from his post...
So, RJ is totally ignoring the in-faller frame of reference.
~~~~~~~~

I'm glad you said that too.
After reading your posts and then reading RJbeery's post saying you agree, I begun to get doubtful of my comprehension of this thread.

-----------------
Asked this earlier of folks ...One thing I notice about the quantum interpretations of the EH, is that to me, nothing has been said about an in-faller being stopped at the EH (why should they be?), only that the in-faller is fried, the mass still goes through and the BH increases in mass. Does that make sense at all?

It's so incredibly stupid to argue there is only one frame of reference in GR and it's the frame dependent one. But that goes on around here frequently.
 
przyk said:
...wrong, as usual. Obviously.
No. You are attempting to pull the wool over everybody's eyes with smoke-and-mirror maths, and you are deliberately ducking the issue. Let's talk about that issue:

All: see the Schwarzschild chart on the left below. You can think of it as depicting an infalling observer.

realisticBHkruskalsmall.jpg

Misner/Thorne/Wheeler Gravitation image posted by Jesse Mazer

Working from the right, run your finger up the curve. Coordinate time goes up to infinity at the event horizon, in line with gravitational time dilation tending to infinity. At the top of the peak, is the end of time, only there is no top to it. But regardless of that, the chart continues to the left of the peak. So the infalling observer goes to the end of time and back. Now run your finger across horizontally. The infalling observer is in two places at once. This is specious nonsense. This is smoke and mirrors.

The Kruskal-Szekeres depiction on the right airbrushes this away by "defining a new coordinate system". But there's a schoolboy error to it. What Kruskal-Szekeres coordinates do is place a stopped observer in front of a stopped clock and claim he sees it ticking as normal, when actually he sees nothing. It's yet more specious nonsense. A mathematical conjuring trick is employed to do a hop skip and a jump over the end of time, by pretending that a stopped clock is still ticking when it isn't. This is what's called lost in maths. It's quackery. And yet this Emperor's New Clothes nonsense is peddled and hyped by people who think they can get away with it.
 
No. You are attempting to pull the wool over everybody's eyes with smoke-and-mirror maths, and you are deliberately ducking the issue. Let's talk about that issue:

All: see the Schwarzschild chart on the left below. You can think of it as depicting an infalling observer.

realisticBHkruskalsmall.jpg

Misner/Thorne/Wheeler Gravitation image posted by Jesse Mazer

Working from the right, run your finger up the curve. Coordinate time goes up to infinity at the event horizon, in line with gravitational time dilation tending to infinity. At the top of the peak, is the end of time, only there is no top to it. But regardless of that, the chart continues to the left of the peak. So the infalling observer goes to the end of time and back. Now run your finger across horizontally. The infalling observer is in two places at once. This is specious nonsense. This is smoke and mirrors.

The Kruskal-Szekeres depiction on the right airbrushes this away by "defining a new coordinate system". But there's a schoolboy error to it. What Kruskal-Szekeres coordinates do is place a stopped observer in front of a stopped clock and claim he sees it ticking as normal, when actually he sees nothing. It's yet more specious nonsense. A mathematical conjuring trick is employed to do a hop skip and a jump over the end of time, by pretending that a stopped clock is still ticking when it isn't. This is what's called lost in maths. It's quackery. And yet this Emperor's New Clothes nonsense is peddled and hyped by people who think they can get away with it.

Apparently after all these years you still can't figure out the remote Schwarzschild bookkeeper coordinates are frame dependent. Or what that means. What happens when you transform from remote coordinates to local coordinates. If you ever figure it out you'll be embarrassed into silence. The argument you're trying to start is juvenile nonsense on you part.

*plonk*
 
No, I don't disagree. (Or yes, any definition that calls two timelike separated points "now" would be a bad one.)
...
The Kruskal chart should suffice, for someone who actually understands GR, because it is deliberately defined in such a way as to make causal relations very easy to visualise. Usually you have to calculate $$\mathrm{d}s^{2}$$ from the metric expression to see if two events are space- or timelike separated in GR (and at all events along a curve, if the two events aren't infinitesimally separated). But in Kruskal coordinates it's easy: they're defined in such a way that the metric expression takes the form

$$\mathrm{d}s^{2} \,=\, f(v,\, u)^{2} \bigl( -\, \mathrm{d}v^{2} \,+\, \mathrm{d}u^{2} \bigr) \,,$$​

so telling whether two events are space- or timelike separated is a simple matter of looking at whether $$- \, \Delta v^{2} \,+\, \Delta u^{2}$$ is positive or negative in Kruskal coordinates, even for finitely separated events.
OK, perfect. Now, take a point from anywhere in quadrant I (where we all reside) and extend from that point a line for positive and negative spacetime intervals. The green line is an example of a timelike separation , and the red is spacelike separation; there is simply no way to connect quadrant I to quadrant II with the slope of a line less than 45 degrees, and such a line is required for $$- \, \Delta v^{2} \,+\, \Delta u^{2}$$ to be negative (i.e. spacelike). Agreed?
Spacelike_Kruksal_diagram_zpsd2d90ea6.jpg
 
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???
BH'S and EH's exist, now, in the future, and in the past.......despite journalistic sensationalist headlines. :shrug:
paddoboy, we've already established your opinion on the matter, regardless of what the mathematics of GR says. I'm looking more in przyk's direction...
 
brucep, I've taken the time to back up my case using the mathematics of GR while you and paddoboy are basically sticking your fingers in your ears, not unlike children. If you'd care to discuss post #169 please feel free to continue contributing to this thread.
 
brucep, I've taken the time to back up my case using the mathematics of GR while you and paddoboy are basically sticking your fingers in your ears, not unlike children. If you'd care to discuss post #169 please feel free to continue contributing to this thread.



Well I'm not quite into the mathematics side of it, but just as I have told a few other anti mainstreamers, if you have a model, supported by evidence, and you are fair dinkum, you are in the wrong place. Get it peer reviewed.
They maybe able to show you the error in your maths.
 
Well I'm not quite into the mathematics side of it, but just as I have told a few other anti mainstreamers, if you have a model, supported by evidence, and you are fair dinkum, you are in the wrong place. Get it peer reviewed.
They maybe able to show you the error in your maths.
"fair dinkum" hehe
 
"fair dinkum" hehe

He he all you like, :shrug: I have never made claims to be anything else other than a layman that has read and listened a bit to "reputable " people.
And I would put that at least a rung or two above some young punk who may have done some prelim Uni course and then comes out professing to know the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. A quality so often recognised here with the many trolls, anti mainstreamers, and conspiracy nutters.

Again, despite any sensationalist headlines, BH's and EH's exist, now and in the future as well as the past.
 
He he all you like, :shrug: I have never made claims to be anything else other than a layman that has read and listened a bit to "reputable " people.
And I would put that at least a rung or two above some young punk who may have done some prelim Uni course and then comes out professing to know the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. A quality so often recognised here with the many trolls, anti mainstreamers, and conspiracy nutters.

Again, despite any sensationalist headlines, BH's and EH's exist, now and in the future as well as the past.
I don't claim to know the truth, I only ask questions. I would never accept "because the textbook said so" as a valid response, unlike most people. I would say that someone who A) doesn't ask questions, B) doesn't analyze arguments and C) continues to claim to know the truth is quite unscientific.
 
I don't claim to know the truth, I only ask questions. .

That's good.....but remember it's how one asks the questions.....some anti mainstreamers, and other nutters ask plenty of questions, but all have a hidden aganda. They are not interested in the most accepted answer.

I would never accept "because the textbook said so" as a valid response, unlike most people. I would say that someone who A) doesn't ask questions, B) doesn't analyze arguments and C) continues to claim to know the truth is quite unscientific.



Text books change over time and as further knowledge and observations are made......But again, the anti brigade and nutters, will always use this as a crutch.
But yeah, sure asking questions is the answer...as long as the person being asked is reasonably reputable.
I mean fancy asking Fat Freddy about the Apollo landings!
 
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