In the east, it is well known that there is a certain kind of biochemical energy of some sort that can be harnessed. You may have heard of it referred to as 'chi'. This is considered by most in the West as a kind of mysticism. Does anyone know of any theories or experiments performed on this energy? I am very interested to hear anyone's opinions on the existence of this energy, or what they think it might be or how it works. There are too many cases in the East of people doing extraordinary things for it to just be ignored.
Biological Energy
- Thread starter Reinstein
- Start date
what is your classification of extraordinary.
A man lifting a car or other heavy object due to shock and/or adrenaline?
I think the training and mental conditioning help allow people to get to a state where things like that are possible without extraordinary events to trigger the increase in adrenaline.
Every human being has an electrical charge they create. This is mostly due to mitochondria in the cells but I dont think any special abilities are included with this energy.
A man lifting a car or other heavy object due to shock and/or adrenaline?
I think the training and mental conditioning help allow people to get to a state where things like that are possible without extraordinary events to trigger the increase in adrenaline.
Every human being has an electrical charge they create. This is mostly due to mitochondria in the cells but I dont think any special abilities are included with this energy.
Neurocomp2003
Registered Senior Member
its all about calmness patience and the attempt to c0ontrol your body by letting it free of your "mind"(meaning control the rest of your limbs and body/breathing and think of nothing esle)
I believe the foremost serious investigator of this phenomenon is the highly credentialed and prolific inventor and writer, Hiroshi Motoyama. I very highly recommend his book "Science and the Evolution of Consciousness." His Automatic Meridian Interface machine seems quite fantastic and in need of more use and testing. You can find a lot more about him at http://www.cihs.edu/cihs/president.asp
I think this has everything to do with physics. Its just that no physicist considers it to be. It's not some kind of mysticism that could be ignored, and when I say extraordinary I am not referring to the infamous mom who lifts a car up that is on her kid. I'm talking about things like where men heat things up to very high temperatures using only their bare hands and the like.
Hiroshimi Motoyama has multiple PhDs, at least one in physics if I remember correctly. He also has a PhD is physiology. To go and toss aside his research and the AMI machine which gives demonstrable proof of something which ionizes differently at different chakra locations is only indicative of just why he's been on it so long and it still is not widely recognized. There is something there. Accupuncture points correspond to the recognizable chakras of kundalini yoga and accupuncture is perfectly legal and accepted by many due to the peer reviewed studies that have disclosed its real effectiveness for many conditions.
Oh well. Moderators are only human. Too bad they act like gods but then that is no one's fault but of the system itself. Sorry if I offend. Please don't smite me. I promise I'll be good. See, I know, yeah, it's all pseudo-science. You're right. Motoyama is just a hard working and well respected quack. The moderator here is much more credentialed I'm sure. Thank you for protecting us.
Oh well. Moderators are only human. Too bad they act like gods but then that is no one's fault but of the system itself. Sorry if I offend. Please don't smite me. I promise I'll be good. See, I know, yeah, it's all pseudo-science. You're right. Motoyama is just a hard working and well respected quack. The moderator here is much more credentialed I'm sure. Thank you for protecting us.
Have you ever read the book by Robert Becker "The Body Electric?" He too has found the same electrical proof of the meridians associated with chi as Hiroshi Motoyama though Motoyama has gone one step further and created his AMI machine. Becker's approach has been mainly concerning the regeneration of tissues. Some of Becker's discoveries are now commonly used in local hospitals everywhere.
What is the lesson here? If it's not physics it must be pseudoscience? But that is not really lucid as there definitely appears to be some physics involved in recognizing what chi is and how it might be utilized.
What is the lesson here? If it's not physics it must be pseudoscience? But that is not really lucid as there definitely appears to be some physics involved in recognizing what chi is and how it might be utilized.
I agree with you Chips. It is kind of a smack in the face that this string was moved to pseudoscience. It's just that kind of closemindedness that PREVENTS science from continuing to evolve. I'm sure if sciforums happened to be around when Einstein discovered relativity, our all-knowing moderators would have similarly moved it into this section. But whatever.
I don't know if the following experience of mine has anything to do with 'chi', but I have a feeling it does, nor do I expect you to take my word that it happened, although I know personally that it certainly did:
When I was about 15 or 16, I experimented with telekinesis a little bit using a crude, yet effective device. What you do is take a large eraser, stick a sewing needle vertically into it, and then slightly fold a small piece of thin paper (about 3x3 inches) and put it on top of the needle, like an umbrella. Either find a room with no drafts, or put a glass overtop of the device to ensure any results aren't just wind.
I tried different things or methods of getting the paper to move, but I had no results at all for about 1-2 weeks of hard work. At some point though, I got small twitches and random movements, and eventually, I was able to have complete control over the paper. I could spin it in any direction (clockwise or counterclockwise) whenever I chose. But the control came after a long time. At some point, I felt a "connection" with the object like you would with any appendage to your body, and I was able to control it completely, without any doubt.
I became very bored with this after a while, seeing how it is not useful at all except as a cheap parlor trick. I am very interested, however, in how it works. I am currently an undergraduate physics major and this is definitely on my list of things I want to investigate in my life.
Yes, this seems like mysticism. But it isn't, there is something going on here. For the record, I am an atheist and I don't believe in ghosts, palm reading, or other such nonsense. I think this phenomena has a purely scientific explanation that is not 'divine' or 'mystical.' I have experienced it myself so I have no doubts as to its existence.
I don't know if the following experience of mine has anything to do with 'chi', but I have a feeling it does, nor do I expect you to take my word that it happened, although I know personally that it certainly did:
When I was about 15 or 16, I experimented with telekinesis a little bit using a crude, yet effective device. What you do is take a large eraser, stick a sewing needle vertically into it, and then slightly fold a small piece of thin paper (about 3x3 inches) and put it on top of the needle, like an umbrella. Either find a room with no drafts, or put a glass overtop of the device to ensure any results aren't just wind.
I tried different things or methods of getting the paper to move, but I had no results at all for about 1-2 weeks of hard work. At some point though, I got small twitches and random movements, and eventually, I was able to have complete control over the paper. I could spin it in any direction (clockwise or counterclockwise) whenever I chose. But the control came after a long time. At some point, I felt a "connection" with the object like you would with any appendage to your body, and I was able to control it completely, without any doubt.
I became very bored with this after a while, seeing how it is not useful at all except as a cheap parlor trick. I am very interested, however, in how it works. I am currently an undergraduate physics major and this is definitely on my list of things I want to investigate in my life.
Yes, this seems like mysticism. But it isn't, there is something going on here. For the record, I am an atheist and I don't believe in ghosts, palm reading, or other such nonsense. I think this phenomena has a purely scientific explanation that is not 'divine' or 'mystical.' I have experienced it myself so I have no doubts as to its existence.
Anything that is beyond current science, is clumped into this category. You just have to live with it.
Very interesting Reinstein. Upon reading Motoyama's "Science and the Evolution of Consciousness" I realized that he had come across a way to quantify and measure telekinesis in such a manner that one could design a biofeedback device to help enhance the phenomenon. I just speculate. I can't say that I believe or not though, from personal experience, I do tend to think that there is something. Whatever, you should look at that book. I have long known that GSR has been used to locate accupuncture points. Motoyama has just taken this a step further where he monitors the changes in the skin resistance between numerous points and has found a corollary with yogis who exhibit some telekinetic and prescient abilities. Besides his many degrees, he has also been trained since quite young in the use of yoga, the meridians, the chakras and chi and is immersed in that community.
This looks like interesting research, Mr. Chips. I think there is a gaping hole that separates the physical and psychological sciences. The device used by Dr. Motoyama is a great start for introducing this area as a serious, real subject. I think there still a lot to learn, though, about how consciousness and all of this strange phenomena is related to the physical universe. An example of what I mean might be an explanation of what specifically, the ki energy is composed of. Is it a bunch of undiscovered subatomic particles? Is it some kind of organic interaction? And how is it that the mind has the apparent ability to control this energy in other places, where it is not in direct contact with these places by a nervous system.
An even more difficult question is whether or not consciousness has a completely physical explanation, or if it is some kind of special substance that we can't quite grasp.
Just thought I would throw these ideas out there and let people ponder for awhile
An even more difficult question is whether or not consciousness has a completely physical explanation, or if it is some kind of special substance that we can't quite grasp.
Just thought I would throw these ideas out there and let people ponder for awhile
Reinstein, if you got what it takes try the below.
The Foundation is committed to providing reliable information about paranormal claims. It both supports and conducts original research into such claims.
At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event. The prize is in the form of negotiable bonds held in a special investment account. The JREF does not involve itself in the testing procedure, other than helping to design the protocol and approving the conditions under which a test will take place. All tests are designed with the participation and approval of the applicant. In most cases, the applicant will be asked to perform a relatively simple preliminary test of the claim, which if successful, will be followed by the formal test. Preliminary tests are usually conducted by associates of the JREF at the site where the applicant lives. Upon success in the preliminary testing process, the "applicant" becomes a "claimant."
To date, no one has ever passed the preliminary tests
http://www.randi.org/research/index.html
The Foundation is committed to providing reliable information about paranormal claims. It both supports and conducts original research into such claims.
At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event. The prize is in the form of negotiable bonds held in a special investment account. The JREF does not involve itself in the testing procedure, other than helping to design the protocol and approving the conditions under which a test will take place. All tests are designed with the participation and approval of the applicant. In most cases, the applicant will be asked to perform a relatively simple preliminary test of the claim, which if successful, will be followed by the formal test. Preliminary tests are usually conducted by associates of the JREF at the site where the applicant lives. Upon success in the preliminary testing process, the "applicant" becomes a "claimant."
To date, no one has ever passed the preliminary tests
http://www.randi.org/research/index.html
Okay. Rain on our parade why don't you No, you bring up a cogent consideration.
The major way that I see the possibility of any telekinesis or prescience (which would include map dowsing) is via a multiverse cosmological perspective. Basically, the rules of this universe are not transgressed, its just that in the moment when such phenomena are witnessed, there is a dissolution of this consciousness and a reformulation of the same consciousness in a similar enough (only subsequent in time if universe is steady-state or dimensional if the multiverses are simultaneous) universe where the transition can not be noticed except that now the action appears disjoint from the actor or observer.
This might also explain why no one has won that contest or wager yet.
Such a multiverse view could possibly culminate in the finding that each of us is the supreme god or goddess of our own universe. Though multiverses may impinge upon our experiences we only witness one. If each of us is the supreme being of our universe, immortal, all knowing, then the beliefs that we are mortal and ignorant are illusion. Why would we choose to sustain such illusions? Consider the immortal all knowing entity. Such a being would experience no surprises. It would know enough about any situation to know what the next would bring. There would be no reason for existence, no moral compulsion, no arrow or direction to desires, wants or actions. In short, we have evolved ourselves in a tricky situation whereby we can progress towards our supreme status but only slowly and through much that would challenge our own "faith" in ourselves. We chose not to act as gods which requires that we make things appear as if humans were incapable of such.
No, you bring up a cogent consideration. The major way that I see the possibility of any telekinesis or prescience (which would include map dowsing) is via a multiverse cosmological perspective. Basically, the rules of this universe are not transgressed, its just that in the moment when such phenomena are witnessed, there is a dissolution of this consciousness and a reformulation of the same consciousness in a similar enough (only subsequent in time if universe is steady-state or dimensional if the multiverses are simultaneous) universe where the transition can not be noticed except that now the action appears disjoint from the actor or observer.
This might also explain why no one has won that contest or wager yet.
Such a multiverse view could possibly culminate in the finding that each of us is the supreme god or goddess of our own universe. Though multiverses may impinge upon our experiences we only witness one. If each of us is the supreme being of our universe, immortal, all knowing, then the beliefs that we are mortal and ignorant are illusion. Why would we choose to sustain such illusions? Consider the immortal all knowing entity. Such a being would experience no surprises. It would know enough about any situation to know what the next would bring. There would be no reason for existence, no moral compulsion, no arrow or direction to desires, wants or actions. In short, we have evolved ourselves in a tricky situation whereby we can progress towards our supreme status but only slowly and through much that would challenge our own "faith" in ourselves. We chose not to act as gods which requires that we make things appear as if humans were incapable of such.
Greco,
I have heard of that organization before, but I'm not interested for a few reasons. The first is that this organization would be setting up the conditions (i.e. they would chose the object to be moved). I was only able rotate a thin piece of paper resting on a pin, which takes very little force. There are some more complicated things to it other than weight. What I mean is, there is a kind of connection that must be made with the object, that gives one confidence in moving it. I'm not sure how this works, but you cannot make an object move by simply wishing or willing it. It is the same feeling as if you move your arm. But, this feeling cannot (in my experience) be cultivated immediately on just any object. I was only able to perform telekinesis on one kind of object, and this was only after weeks of effort. Assuming that I still practice telekinesis and can still perform it (which I probably can't as I haven't tried in years) this organization would probably not "happen" to have set up the same mechanism that I used myself, so I wouldn't be able to "connect" with it or however you want to call it.
I am very interested though, in knowing how strict this foundation is on the preliminary tests, as one could quite easily make such an organization and then propose only impossible tasks to the applicants. Also, I'm not sure that telekinesis would count as a valid ability for the contest, as its not exactly supernatural or paranormal (like dowsing rods or spiritually related phenomena that have no possible explanation).
One other thing I would like to say is the following. In the east, it is experiencially known by thousands that there is an existing biological energy, and there are various methods to unlock it that thousands claim to have worked for them. Does it really makes sense that thousands of people would all conspire just to fool people, while having no incentive of money or reward to do so?
I have heard of that organization before, but I'm not interested for a few reasons. The first is that this organization would be setting up the conditions (i.e. they would chose the object to be moved). I was only able rotate a thin piece of paper resting on a pin, which takes very little force. There are some more complicated things to it other than weight. What I mean is, there is a kind of connection that must be made with the object, that gives one confidence in moving it. I'm not sure how this works, but you cannot make an object move by simply wishing or willing it. It is the same feeling as if you move your arm. But, this feeling cannot (in my experience) be cultivated immediately on just any object. I was only able to perform telekinesis on one kind of object, and this was only after weeks of effort. Assuming that I still practice telekinesis and can still perform it (which I probably can't as I haven't tried in years) this organization would probably not "happen" to have set up the same mechanism that I used myself, so I wouldn't be able to "connect" with it or however you want to call it.
I am very interested though, in knowing how strict this foundation is on the preliminary tests, as one could quite easily make such an organization and then propose only impossible tasks to the applicants. Also, I'm not sure that telekinesis would count as a valid ability for the contest, as its not exactly supernatural or paranormal (like dowsing rods or spiritually related phenomena that have no possible explanation).
One other thing I would like to say is the following. In the east, it is experiencially known by thousands that there is an existing biological energy, and there are various methods to unlock it that thousands claim to have worked for them. Does it really makes sense that thousands of people would all conspire just to fool people, while having no incentive of money or reward to do so?
Saith
Registered Senior Member
I think you need to read the post better.
Then I guess you would be interested in this, it's a link on the page that the previous poster linked too which further explains things - http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html
It's not superntural/paranormal? I suppose from your point of view its not since you believe its real, but I am pretty sure that James Randi will see it that way so no worries there.
It is also "experiencially" known as you say by millions that the Holy Ghost is real. A lot of things have been "experiencially" known by many people, human's seem to have a nack for self-deception. I am assuming that even you don't believe that everything that has been claimed to be experienced by a large amount of people is real.
Thousands have claimed to have seen christ, allah, and buddha among other things during a near death experience, but that doesn't make it real.
No it doesn't. And I doubt anyone believes that anyways. I would imagine that skeptics believe that those people have merely fooled themselves instead, but that's just my guess.
The fact that I said "experientially" known is very important. Christians simply believe in something, whereas the existence of energy has been felt and indisputably experienced by many. Your mind is obviously not in its normal state in a near-death experience, so someone who says they saw Christ while close to death is not really reliable. Many people saying that they are able to feel and control energy during meditation is very different from all the other examples you have cited. During meditation, one is more acutely aware, unlike in a near-death experience. The key thing here is EXPERIENTIAL knowledge, not belief.
If there was a minor earthquake in a local area where say, 300 people, claimed to notice, but there was no empirical evidence other than their testimony to suggest its existence, would you really say "well people also claim christ exists so we can't trust these people either." No, because this is experiential knowledge, it is more concrete. It's not a belief. I think you are confusing these two concepts.
If there was a minor earthquake in a local area where say, 300 people, claimed to notice, but there was no empirical evidence other than their testimony to suggest its existence, would you really say "well people also claim christ exists so we can't trust these people either." No, because this is experiential knowledge, it is more concrete. It's not a belief. I think you are confusing these two concepts.
Saith
Registered Senior Member
Reinstein simply believe in something, whereeas the existence of the Holy Ghost has been felt and indisputably experienced by many. It's easy to make an assertion.
Many people saying that they are able to feel and Holy Ghost during prayer is very different from all the personal experiences people have claimed. But that doesn't make it anymore real.
Wasn't there a village or villages of people running away from monsters not to long ago? Some kind of flying blood sucking fiends or something.
This reminds me of how Christians claim that Christianity isn't a religion, and so you can't compare it to other religions.
It's life. The "energy" that the East is so interested in, and the West don't care any less to study is life. That' what "chi" is all about. Meditation wa supposed to move this energy so that your body can be revigorated. The "chi" is intimately linked with the blood preasure. The mouvement of the "chi" actually slows down the blood preasure, and that is why you feel relaxed when you are meditating or doing Tai Chi or Chi Kung. If you are not relaxed, then you are doing something wrong.Reinstein said:
One other thing. There's no value on doing something extraordinary and pointless. I mean... who cares if you can heat up something with your bare hands? It is better to make a relevant use to the thing...
Christianity is not a religion because Christianity is not based on traditions and religious action. Yes, A LOT of Christians do traditionale stuff and that is not really good. Have you read the gospels? Have you read what Jesus says about traditions? He says NO to traditions. Traditions only limit God.Saith said:
Christianity shouldn't be conidered a religion, although most people seem to treat it and use it as a religion...