Biblical errors

T

Teg

Unknown Citizen
Registered Senior Member
Some time ago a huge list of biblical contradictions was posted. None of these were ever disputed. KalvinB complained of some difficulty with the size of the piece. Well this one is short. I only hope that its brevity pleases KalvinB.

"The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father..." -- Ezekiel 18:20

"I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation..." -- Exodus 20:5

So what can you offer to shed light on these two statements, both from your book and in obvious opposition? The language is similar but the concepts are diametrically opposed.
 
As long as the children keep doing what the fathers did, yes God will keep punishing them to n generations.

Ben
 
Teg,
I am not sure about these two but do you really want to discuss this topic??? I do have some info but I don't want any one to be offended by what I post here.
 
If you have an answer, post it. If it's offensive because it's stupid and baseless then maybe you should keep it to your self. If it's offensive because it is the truth then post it.

If someone is offended by the truth, then it's not the truth that needs to change.

And, yes, you will have to defend whatever it is you post.

Ben
 
Post it Markx. Really. I'd like to hear smth other thn standart aswers I have heard on this religion forum lately.
 
*Originally posted by Teg
So what can you offer to shed light on these two statements, both from your book and in obvious opposition? The language is similar but the concepts are diametrically opposed. *

"visit" does not mean "bear."
 
Tony1

You have again split a minute hair. You should be careful not to split an atom someday.

"The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father..." -- Ezekiel 18:20

Meaning: Children will not be responsible for the actions of their parents.

"I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation..." -- Exodus 20:5

Meaning: I your God will place guilt for the actions of the fathers into the 3rd and 4th generation.

Visit and bear are not so different when viewed in light of the use of "unto". This definately makes a distinction between an act and a more passive gesture.
 
Re: Tony1

*Originally posted by Teg
You have again split a minute hair. You should be careful not to split an atom someday.*

It merely looks minute.
In fact, it is quite large.

"The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father..." -- Ezekiel 18:20

Meaning: Children will not be punished for the actions of their parents.

"I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation..." -- Exodus 20:5

Meaning: I your God will curse up to the 3rd and 4th generations for the actions of the fathers.

"visit" and "bear" really do mean very different things.
 
Tony1, please take a Deep Breath and Try It Again

What is the point of arguing the definitions of visit and bear? The original point you made, Tony1, in your initial response to the topic actually has nothing to do with anything. And here's why:

* The sons shall not bear ....
* The Lord shall not visit ....

The point of bear and visit having different meanings is only relevant as presented if the subject of each sentence is the same.

You see, Tony1, the only point you've made is that the words mean different things. This actually has absolutely nothing to do with the topic, and I wonder why you've wasted the space of two posts intentionally missing the point? Could you please comment on the contradiction posed by these two Biblical statements? Unfortunately, the other Christian response in this topic does no better than your own; I find it interesting that he had to change the terms of the Bible before positing an answer that does not address the issue.

The question at hand is what the Lord will do vs. what the Lord will not do. I don't see what's so hard about that, since the Lord says that he does what he says he will not do.

It has nothing to do with the fact that visit and bear have different meanings; would you like to comment, Tony1, on why this aspect is significant? After all, you did bring it up.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:
 
Re: Tony1, please take a Deep Breath and Try It Again

*Originally posted by tiassa
* The sons[/] shall not bear[/] ....
* The Lord[/] shall not visit[/] ....

The point of bear[/] and visit[/] having different meanings is only relevant as presented if the subject of each sentence is the same.*

That's great, tiassa.
You've highlighted another reason why the two verses aren't contradictory.

Thus, the Lord will do what he says he will.
Thanks.
 
tony1,

You are an incredibly muddy thinker. Still, I guess you need that in order to be able to hold so many mutually contradictory ideas in your head at once and to believe them all.
 
Tony1,
I am going to post and I will post every thing from Bible, I will not post personal ideas. But I am on limited time here. I don't have luxury of Inernet at work. So wait for a day and we will continue. :p :p :eek: :eek:
 
So, Tony1, has it occurred to you ...

... that the sons, who are not supposed to bear the iniquity of the fathers do not do so until the Lord visits that iniquity unto them?

That is the foundation of the contradiction, that the Lord says that the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, yet the Lord also visits that iniquity of the fathers unto the sons.

The issue you have chosen with the definitions of visit and bear has nothing to do with the topic, and when you write Thus, the Lord will do what he says he will, you are incorrect. The Biblical evidence presented in the topic post demonstrates that you are incorrect.

Simply: the two verses describe contradictory states. How and why is this?

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:
 
out of the NIV version of the bible (look it up if you wish) the verses read:
Ezekiel 18:20-the soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the quilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The rightousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him
exodus 20:5-You shall not bow down to them or worshp them (idols) for I, the Lord your God, and a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the thrid and fourth generation fof those who hate me.

Have you ever been punished for something you didn't do? Did you feel guilty for it?? That is the difference in these verses. Just because the children are being punished doesn't mean they feel guilty for the sin they didn't commit.

As for why God would punish the next generations, it doesn't say what the punishmenats are. May they are just the feeling of the effects of the fathers stupidity. For example:
The father worships an idol, God gets mad and punishes this father by destroying his property. Then the children get no inheritance and have to earn $ to buy new land. So generation after generation have to work hard just to gain back what the father lost.....not necessarily a punishment, just feeling the effects.

Just a thought:D
-JS
 
Good viewpoint

<b>JesusSaves</b>, hey there!

The father worships an idol, God gets mad and punishes this father by destroying his property. Then the children get no inheritance and have to earn $ to buy new land. So generation after generation have to work hard just to gain back what the father lost.....not necessarily a punishment, just feeling the effects.
Click to expand...
According to this scripture, this is a good line of interpretation. Probably what tony1 was trying to convey before he lost track of his conscious thread. But this is an example of what happens when someone disobeys a jealous and vengeful God--the Christian God.

Here's an example of what would happen to that same father in a slightly different situation:
The father decides to absolve any ties to religion, relying on his own judgment about what to do in life. God, not being the Christian type to be jealous or vengeful, actually understands what the father is going through and respects his decision without ulterior motives to waylay him later on. Anyway, the father becomes aware of his shortcomings for believing that others are wrong based on their own respective belief system. So, he gradually becomes more open-minded, accepts others instead of denouncing them about their false beliefs, and tries to help the community instead of adding to the detriment thereof. His children eventually learn from the father's example and are free to decide which path they want to trod--the one with God or the one without.

The great thing is that God will reward both of these fathers in the end. The Christian God will reward the former father with great riches, numerous concubines, and a hankering for hate. The Other God will reward the latter father with a deeper understanding of life and its complexities, better relationships with others, and a greater openness with his own children.

Just a different take on the same subject.

Thanks!

prag
 
Prag

God is not jealous and vengeful for no reason.....
He wants the people He created to worship Him alone, not idols, not wo/men, not money. If the way to get His people to listen is to make an exaple of the wrongdoers....hey, go for it God.
 
Here's how I view it, they are not contradictions:

"The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father..." -- Ezekiel 18:20

Meaning: The children will not be punished for the sins of their parents, after all it was not the children who committed the sin, but the parents, if the children choose not to.

"I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation..." -- Exodus 20:5

Meaning: The LORD is a jealous God, he does not want anyone worshipping any artificial kind of crap, he wants HIS people to worship him, the only and true God. Many people do not believe in God...instead someone or something else (which is artificial) and he does not approve of this, because he is the one who created us....

FOR EXAMPLE: Let's say we have a married couple named Fred and Betty....Neither of them believe in God...in fact they instead worship some golden calf (which happened in the Bible),....when in fact that worthless calf has no life or feelings towards them unlike God who does care about them so much and it makes him angry that they would worship anything like that...(If you can't imagine what I'm talking about...think about how it would be like you worshipping the AIR!)...yes crazy isn't it?.....well it just so happens they have a daughter named Sue, and since Fred and Betty are worshipping the golden calf, it would be hard for Sue not to worship it to, so she does (by choice AND INFLUENCE FROM HER PARENTS)....she has also made the stupid mistake by following her parent's "religion". Sue also gets married and she has a boy...., but this boy does not choose to worship the golden calf, and instead worship God...this boy will not be punished because he has chosen God.....but on the other hand, Fred, Betty, and their daughter Sue will be punished ( to HELL), because they did not choose God, Sue did not have much of a choice because of her parents great influence who brought her to the cattle every Saturday to worship it, and she became used to it. Luckily Sue's son choose the right path....and his children probably will too from his influence on them.
to summarize it: the first 2 generations were condemned for their disloyalty, but then the third generation and so forth was saved, because they chose the right path to go.

**ALSO**If anyone has any questions about this you can ask me I will be happy to help you understand it better....: e-mail: spunky2239@aol.com
 
*Originally posted by James R
tony1,

You are an incredibly muddy thinker. Still, I guess you need that in order to be able to hold so many mutually contradictory ideas in your head at once and to believe them all. *

I believe God.
I believe you are intelligent.

I see your point.

*Originally posted by tiassa
Simply: the two verses describe contradictory states. How and why is this? *

Not contradictory.
Why?, too much drug ingestion on your part?

The sons don't die for the fathers' sins, but since they have no one else to learn from, they learn their fathers' sins.

Short form: Like father, like son.
 
"worshipping the AIR"

AIR, I love AIR, I simply can't live without it. Ammmmmm, Ammmm,Ammmmmm;)

sin is a stupid concept meant for other ages.
people are not stupid you know
---worship only me and I thou nost, thee shall burn in lake of fire.---
It even sounds stupid and somehow dated[ maybe it sounded good 5000 years ago, but not now]. I have a freedom of choice and I choose in what I beleive. And if some christian fundie thinks he can scare me with internal flames, wellllll let his think so:)

It is truly stupid to beleive tht only christians shall be rewarded after death, or anyone will. Why that top priority. They are scared of unknown and thus think of a good hidding place, behing concept of one god, tht shall reward only them after the apocalypsis.
What about Hidu, Islam, Mormon, Buddhism, all those pagan beleifs.
You think tht you are better then they are. Check istory records. Everyone has its bad sides, but no religion has killed so many people as christtianity did and does now, only spiritually[second id Islam, a latter side branch of christianity very modified by Muhamed to fit his beleifs].

Take a look in what America is turnong into.
God save America. and new born christians and fundies everywhere, allowing you not to live.
[where did the rest of the world go?:)]
 
Doesn't quite work, Spunks

well it just so happens they have a daughter named Sue, and since Fred and Betty are worshipping the golden calf, it would be hard for Sue not to worship it to, so she does (by choice AND INFLUENCE FROM HER PARENTS)....she has also made the stupid mistake by following her parent's "religion". Sue also gets married and she has a boy...., but this boy does not choose to worship the golden calf, and instead worship God...this boy will not be punished because he has chosen God.....but on the other hand, Fred, Betty, and their daughter Sue will be punished ( to HELL), because they did not choose God, Sue did not have much of a choice because of her parents great influence who brought her to the cattle every Saturday to worship it, and she became used to it.
Click to expand...
You speak much of people's choices here, but nothing of the Lord's: the Lord chooses to visit the iniquity of the fathers onto the sons. Is it, then, God's will that the sons should choose the calf?

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:
 
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