P. M. Thorne
Registered Senior Member
Okay, SnakeLord; here goes.
It would be a lot easier if you didn't regard everything as a personal attack.
RESPONSE: Well, I am sorry, Sir, but after viewing your other posts to other people, that seems to be an appropriate term.
I'm sorry, isn't this a forum where people debate religious issues? If you'd like, we can just talk about the weather instead. You cannot sum up the whole reason I live based on your observations on a religious debate forum. What am I supposed to do here, ask for cookie recipies?
RESP: ……. Oh come on!
I am what you'd class as an atheist. You are what I would class as a religious person. When the two of them meet on a religious forum, the chances are a debate will start. You say something, the other responds and so on, yet for some reason you seem to just expect everyone to agree with you in entirety. If they don't, you start making accusations that they're making attacks, when questioning a persons beliefs is a normal everyday event, and rarely does harm unless that person is doubtful of his own beliefs.
RESP: ……And, this type of BS is what you do, which is common for those who consider argumentative suppositions, and excessive use of hypothesis a proper way to debate. In addition, I did not come on this forum to defend my faith, but to read ideas, and to share ideas. I am aware of no rules that would disallow this. My response to you happened because I am interested in people, and I usually suppose that you tough guys are not as bad as you would project. Occasionally, I am wrong, but not often.
You must have a strange thought if you really believe a person will not question your beliefs on a forum such as this.
RESP:….I have answered this before. It was your manner of approach, and not your questioning, that is annoying. This has been covered and I will not respond to it again.
You'd probably be much more at home on a christian's only forum.
RESP:…….Contrare! I would rather be with several like you!
This is the first time I've had someone making such accusations,….
RESP:…….Well, you do not intimidate me, and perhaps this has something to do with it.
other people I talk to are more than willing and able to defend and support their beliefs
RESP: …..Really, then you accept that “other people,” whom you say have been “able to defend their beliefs,” have satisfied you that they have valid reasons for believing as they do, and yet you do not get it.
That response about 'light bulbs' wasn't really what I was after,
RESP: ……See, here is another example of how you pound away on the same point over and over. I told you that you totally missed my point, and by response I deduced that it would be difficult to explain it to you, because our thought patterns differ. You know what? I would not mind getting into that if you gave one hint that you would take me seriously and receive what I say with an open mind. You may not accept this, but I am doing my best to find some value in what you say, because I know that you are of value.
I wonder why you feel so 'attacked' by someone questioning your beliefs - surely if they are rock solid you have nothing to fear or feel threatened by.
RESP:……Oh my goodness! You wish.
there are those type of people that will point out things, question things, and even make criticism of certain things. While you're obviously looking for a world full of the former people, the latter are of greater worth.
RESP: ……..I have done technical and creative writing for many years, and still engage in creative writing. When I was taking technical writing in college, I was introduced to the harshest criticism ever by the instructor. It was brutal, and taught me much. I know about criticism. I am not like most people, insomuch as I do not think like most people that I know, and when one thinks so independently and rebels as much as I have, for as many years as I have, one knows about criticism. However, technical writing is not the same as creative writing. In technical writing, one must know his audience, and the burden is on the writer for the understanding, which must be. In creative writing, the burden is often on the reader, no matter how much the writer has tried to express himself. There are always faultfinders among the sincere searchers. I write from my heart and my head, if someone wants to read it, fine; if not, that is just as fine, because I do it to express, not to impress. Whether anyone ever gets it or not, concerns me not. My exposure is not great because I am not self-promoting. Writing helps one know the truth about oneself.
As a person who 'studies' religion and mythology throughout history, covering every aspect as opposed to just one, I am in a position where questions are ever important. You see, in your own mind you probably have the 'truth'.
RESP: ……….No, my brother, the search for truth has not ended. What I know in my mind is that I know almost nothing and that there are few who know more. We assume that we know things, because someone has told us, we have read it; it makes sense to us, or whatever. Nevertheless, there is another way of knowing, and that is by experience. RESP, CON’T:……As for my religious beliefs, they are just that, beliefs. As I have said many times, I am in a process, just as you are, and the search for truth has not ended. One thing I know is that God is. I swear to you He is. How can you not know this?
You've probably met jesus, found god, and whatever else along those lines.
RESP:……..Well, bless your heart. I have found no one. God has never been lost to me. I will admit times of asking where He was. In time, I have learned, or at least it seems more reasonable that I accept that it has all been done, and that it is up to each of us to receive from our Source. When I was preteen, I was taught to pray and God would answer, and lead to believe that this meant, I would get notable results in a tangible form. As I became an adult, and dedicated myself to being realistic, it made more sense to accept that it has all been done, already. So, do I get answers to my prayers, yes, but not in the way I once expected.
RESP: …..The way many people pray has always troubled me, and I used to become very uncomfortable when asked to pray. It was not embarrassment, but my doubting that I was really praying, and doubting that they, in similar situations, were. So many prayers seemed like sermons to me, and/or seemed mechanical. To me the only way one can be sure that we are praying is when we are sure that we are talking to no one but God.
RESP CON’T: …….After 9-11, prayers, poems and such came often. One day, I received one of the many prayers I had been sent. Why do some think that they must always be telling others what to do. I do not like anyone telling me how to, or when to pray. In addition, it irritated me that people would write admonitions, and even threats, and call them prayers, so I asked myself why I was being so critical, and decided to check it out more closely. Exactly, I wanted to know, what was it about this particular prayer that I would change. So, I moved the prayer to Microsoft Word, and began to work on it. It took only about two minutes, I would suppose, before I deleted the whole thing, and began to write from scratch. Over two hours later with tears to my knees (figuratively speaking), I had a prayer, with no sermon in it. It was to God, not to man, because this is the only way I know to pray. Nor did I ask anyone to forward, repeat, or ever use, but I did send it out, with loving results. I have not written one since. But, I know what was bothering me about the other prayers; they did not seem to be to God, but to influence man to drop what he was doing and prepare himself for the next time tragedy struck. It was presumptuous, as though the writer assumed that everyone would want to repeat the prayer and send it to eight people, and so forth; and it gave the impression that to not be impressed sufficiently to follow his instructions could lead to trouble.
MORE RESP:………..Yes, I believe that we are the sons of God, and are His instruments and that we have done a very poor job—in general—of loving one another, of encouraging one another, myself included. Jesus taught us to love one another, and instead we fuss over doctrine and quarrel about religion. Some run around telling people they are born-again-Christians. Some say, “God loves you as though they are pronouncing an individual blessing on the person to whom they are speaking.” It seems rather silly to me to go around saying that unless one is a teacher. It means little or nothing to the people hearing it. Does this make any sense to you? If not, I apologize for going on and on, but I do this sometimes. Usually, I go back and delete a whole bunch, but I am going to leave this as is. You do not seem to have a very high opinion of believers anyway, so what have I to lose? It is sincere, and that is about the best I can give anyone.
You can't expect everyone to just take your word for it and done with it.
RESP: ……….I have no expectations. Why do you assume that I do?
is I do not have jesus in my heart, lungs, kidneys or liver, and as such can only question you because you apparently do.
RESP: ………See, that is silly stuff. I never said that I had Jesus in my heart, kidneys or liver. You do this all the time.
Destroy? That would make me right. I'm questioning your beliefs, if they get destroyed that's on your own part, not mine.
RESP: …..I said that you wanted to; I did not once imply that you could. Right?
From my perspective none of them has any more validity than any of the others. I would question a believer in Abellio as much as I would question a believer in Jesus.
RESP: …..So………?
Desperately is a pointless word here. My "non-belief" has been supported since my birth, and nobody has even come close to showing otherwise - in fact, all that a religious person has accomplished thus far is to make me even more of a "non-believer".
RESP: ……Are, or were you, expecting someone to convince you otherwise? Perhaps if you could give up that which binds you.
I didn't go so far as to say "there is no god,"
RESP: …….Of course, only you know for sure what you have said.
but what would make you think a bunch of 2000 year old people would know it any better than anyone else? What would make you think the biblical writers got god 'down to a T', instead of the Sumerians, the Hindu's, the Greeks?
RESP: ……I told you before that I did not learn of God from a book or a religion either. The only way you can truly know God is through you. All that other matters not. I should think that if you really want to know anything that you would want to find out for yourself, rather than looking to others to justify your continued disbelief. Once you know, you will not be so inclined to speculate about others. Once you are at peace, you will be less concerned about people’s preferences, I should think. Once you have joy, you will bring then bring joy to others. I promise.
No. If I was to "buy" into something other than what I already believe, then it would undoubtedly have a lot of supporting evidence, (maybe only to me), and thus would be a worthwhile move.
RESPONSE: ………………..Beautiful!…………………….
I would still however, expect people to question what and why I believe what I do. If it's that credible, every question would be answerable.
RESP: And my advice to you, at least -until you are much older and wiser- is that should such a beautiful thing happen you, “avoid foolish and unlearned questions.” It is a waste of time.
It wasn't "murky", it's a simple question:
RESP: ……No, it was not simple at all; you put a tail on it, a speculative tail. Besides, you gave me the option of answering only the questions I cared to, and I see no relevance to that one and care not to answer it.
What I think you need to understand is this...On my desk are 10 books of ancient texts. I look at book 1, then book 2 and so on until book 10. What is it that would give credence to the biblical texts over any of the others?
RESP: …..Why would I need to understand that?
No. You'd probably just state it's worrying or annoying to think people go to such lengths. I would respond saying it's essential that people do. It helps them gain an understanding of the characters portrayed, might help to show that they even existed in the first place, and is important when people claim how wonderful, educated, queer and god loving Paul was when they don't even fucking know him.
RESP: …….No hostility, huh?
Now see, that's a vast misunderstanding. It takes no work whatsoever to not believe in something that has nothing to show it exists.
RESP: …….Really? Then why do you go to such lengths?
Let me ask you, would you find it hard work not believing in the giant fruit pastille eating iguana from planet thwobble plop?
Regardless, I do not chase after people to find out why they believe what they do. Did you forget that part?
I do not ignore people, I find it rude.
RESP: ………..Well, that is good reason. I do not usually ignore people because my disposition will not allow it, and yes, it is rude.
The main problem is in understanding why someone would instantly accept some "supernatural" belief while denying others
RESP: Listen to me, my good fellow, it has absolutely nothing to do with denying others. That is my point that you apparently keep missing. You simply do not understand, and then make demands regarding matters that are totally unimportant to me insofar as my knowing God. Saying that I have nothing to prove is not a defense, it a fact. That you even believe that something so non-tangible can be proven is mind boggling, because I do not believe it for one second!
RESP CON’T: ……Therefore, all this talk about proof is ridiculous nonsense. I have told you why I believe, but you cannot accept it, because you seem to have this desire to get into things with which you seem to be familiar, but do not particularly interest me. Not to be unkind, but if you would like to discuss your books in an argumentative way, find someone who is interested.
How does a person just say, "well this god is the real one"?
RESP: ……..I suppose the same way that you might say that I am real, without having seen me.
Some texts claim there is only, and has only ever been one god, whereas other texts claim there's hundreds or thousands of god beings. The sky could quite literally be packed to the brim with gods, or completely devoid of them.
RESP: ……Could it?
Humans haven't even managed to figure the brain out completely yet, what would make anyone think anyone has god figured out, let alone people several thousand years ago?
RESP: .............Well, I have surely not figured you out yet, and you seem real enough!
Nowadays there are two distinct paths- those where truth comes from within, (religion), and those where truth comes from the outside, (science). One looks at everything around them and finds answers, while the other looks within themselves and finds answers. Science produces for everyone, religion produces for the individual.
RESP: ... Very good. See, you know stuff.
Again I agree. Unfortunately many people assign an instant answer to that which we do not understand. The very principle of not understanding something, is that you don't give it an instant answer that you accept outright. I'm not speaking of you personally, but this most certainly is the norm.
RESP: …….True, and many people spend their whole lives questioning everything, not meaning you, because you do seem to have other elements in your life, but I would like to see you more tolerant and less presumptuous. We are all in a process and sometimes it does seem that we have to walk through a mess to get to the good part, and then that is not the end of it either. This is why it is so important to have a joy that abides, and a peace that provides understanding.
RESP CON’T: …….You imply that you do not believe that Jesus lived ever, or am I wrong? Yet, let me tell you: I became aware of one of the most useful tools for living, and the truth of it became evident to me after having read the bible since I was twelve, after having completed Bible School, after having held several positions in church and church-related activities, and I had actually stopped going to church regularly. One day, some very familiar words worked their way into my heart, (or I finally owned them, if this makes more sense to you). These words: “Forgive them Father for they know not what they do,” moved in to stay! What wisdom can be found in these words!
MORE RESP: ……When their impact melted my “unforgiveness,” I took another step to realize that this must be an ongoing all-the-time process. The joy I received in really understanding the importance of, -not the words, “Forgive them, Father.” I had known the truth of those words since childhood. No, it was the latter phrase, “they know not what they do.” Wow! Of course! Once this was mine, I began an internal search to clear up a lot of misunderstanding, and then wrote an article claiming that we could change the past. That caused quite a stir, but I hold to it, because it happened for me.
But that's just a personal relation. Billions of people have no incling, understanding, or sign of gods existence, so proof remains essential does it not?
RESP: ……..No one proved it to me, nor could they have.
I live in the country.. I love nothing quite as much as trees, kingfishers, squirrels scampering around the woodland, the moon at night glistening upon a quiet planet, and leaves sway gently in the breeze. I love the smell of grass in the morning, the chattering of finches, the rippling of the lake as it winds it's way through the countryside. I smile at the field overrun by amazingly colourful flowers, and love listening to the woodpecker make his nest. More than that, I love to see the resident kestrel glide overhead.
RESP: ………Thank you for sharing that. What is a kestrel? As for trees, I suppose there are innumerable individuals who love trees.
RESP CON'T: When I was seven, my biological father picked me up in Bakersfield, where my mother lived, and took me to Oklahoma to stay with him and his family, which was not unlike a nightmare in too many ways. Yet, time and again that wonderment I experienced with nature rescued me. One day, coming home from school, I picked up a leaf that had fallen, and thought it was so pretty. I held it up for the sun to shine through, and counted the veins. Then I began to ponder all the different shapes and sizes of leaves, and different vein patterns. Finally, I had gathered my treasures, and sat myself under a big old tree with all my leaves, and did my analysis. Finally, and it seemed like no time at all, my cousin came yelling that my grandmother was really mad and I had best get home at once. She was no one to mess with, so I deserted my happy place and ran for home. She questioned me, and questioned me some more, not once believing that I had simply been looking at leaves. Finally, when I did not change my story, she issued punishment fit for a lying and disobedient child. Yet, what made me sadder than the punishment was that I had left all those pretty leaves behind.
The kestrel and I have a very interesting history. He played so much of a part in my upbringing it is insane. (Of course we're now talking about the kestrels grandkid).
RESP:………What is/was insane about it?
In all of this beauty, and even in all of the pain and suffering that also goes on in this world, nothing points to a god being. For some, I have no doubt it does, but for me, it doesn't.
RESP: ………….I have no idea what to say here.
I am a thinking man more than anything else.
RESP: ……..That is admirable, but once in a while we need to be still, and let our minds be still. How can God speak to you if your mind is always full and busy? When you are among the trees, listen to their message.
PMT
It would be a lot easier if you didn't regard everything as a personal attack.
RESPONSE: Well, I am sorry, Sir, but after viewing your other posts to other people, that seems to be an appropriate term.
I'm sorry, isn't this a forum where people debate religious issues? If you'd like, we can just talk about the weather instead. You cannot sum up the whole reason I live based on your observations on a religious debate forum. What am I supposed to do here, ask for cookie recipies?
RESP: ……. Oh come on!
I am what you'd class as an atheist. You are what I would class as a religious person. When the two of them meet on a religious forum, the chances are a debate will start. You say something, the other responds and so on, yet for some reason you seem to just expect everyone to agree with you in entirety. If they don't, you start making accusations that they're making attacks, when questioning a persons beliefs is a normal everyday event, and rarely does harm unless that person is doubtful of his own beliefs.
RESP: ……And, this type of BS is what you do, which is common for those who consider argumentative suppositions, and excessive use of hypothesis a proper way to debate. In addition, I did not come on this forum to defend my faith, but to read ideas, and to share ideas. I am aware of no rules that would disallow this. My response to you happened because I am interested in people, and I usually suppose that you tough guys are not as bad as you would project. Occasionally, I am wrong, but not often.
You must have a strange thought if you really believe a person will not question your beliefs on a forum such as this.
RESP:….I have answered this before. It was your manner of approach, and not your questioning, that is annoying. This has been covered and I will not respond to it again.
You'd probably be much more at home on a christian's only forum.
RESP:…….Contrare! I would rather be with several like you!
This is the first time I've had someone making such accusations,….
RESP:…….Well, you do not intimidate me, and perhaps this has something to do with it.
other people I talk to are more than willing and able to defend and support their beliefs
RESP: …..Really, then you accept that “other people,” whom you say have been “able to defend their beliefs,” have satisfied you that they have valid reasons for believing as they do, and yet you do not get it.
That response about 'light bulbs' wasn't really what I was after,
RESP: ……See, here is another example of how you pound away on the same point over and over. I told you that you totally missed my point, and by response I deduced that it would be difficult to explain it to you, because our thought patterns differ. You know what? I would not mind getting into that if you gave one hint that you would take me seriously and receive what I say with an open mind. You may not accept this, but I am doing my best to find some value in what you say, because I know that you are of value.
I wonder why you feel so 'attacked' by someone questioning your beliefs - surely if they are rock solid you have nothing to fear or feel threatened by.
RESP:……Oh my goodness! You wish.
there are those type of people that will point out things, question things, and even make criticism of certain things. While you're obviously looking for a world full of the former people, the latter are of greater worth.
RESP: ……..I have done technical and creative writing for many years, and still engage in creative writing. When I was taking technical writing in college, I was introduced to the harshest criticism ever by the instructor. It was brutal, and taught me much. I know about criticism. I am not like most people, insomuch as I do not think like most people that I know, and when one thinks so independently and rebels as much as I have, for as many years as I have, one knows about criticism. However, technical writing is not the same as creative writing. In technical writing, one must know his audience, and the burden is on the writer for the understanding, which must be. In creative writing, the burden is often on the reader, no matter how much the writer has tried to express himself. There are always faultfinders among the sincere searchers. I write from my heart and my head, if someone wants to read it, fine; if not, that is just as fine, because I do it to express, not to impress. Whether anyone ever gets it or not, concerns me not. My exposure is not great because I am not self-promoting. Writing helps one know the truth about oneself.
As a person who 'studies' religion and mythology throughout history, covering every aspect as opposed to just one, I am in a position where questions are ever important. You see, in your own mind you probably have the 'truth'.
RESP: ……….No, my brother, the search for truth has not ended. What I know in my mind is that I know almost nothing and that there are few who know more. We assume that we know things, because someone has told us, we have read it; it makes sense to us, or whatever. Nevertheless, there is another way of knowing, and that is by experience. RESP, CON’T:……As for my religious beliefs, they are just that, beliefs. As I have said many times, I am in a process, just as you are, and the search for truth has not ended. One thing I know is that God is. I swear to you He is. How can you not know this?
You've probably met jesus, found god, and whatever else along those lines.
RESP:……..Well, bless your heart. I have found no one. God has never been lost to me. I will admit times of asking where He was. In time, I have learned, or at least it seems more reasonable that I accept that it has all been done, and that it is up to each of us to receive from our Source. When I was preteen, I was taught to pray and God would answer, and lead to believe that this meant, I would get notable results in a tangible form. As I became an adult, and dedicated myself to being realistic, it made more sense to accept that it has all been done, already. So, do I get answers to my prayers, yes, but not in the way I once expected.
RESP: …..The way many people pray has always troubled me, and I used to become very uncomfortable when asked to pray. It was not embarrassment, but my doubting that I was really praying, and doubting that they, in similar situations, were. So many prayers seemed like sermons to me, and/or seemed mechanical. To me the only way one can be sure that we are praying is when we are sure that we are talking to no one but God.
RESP CON’T: …….After 9-11, prayers, poems and such came often. One day, I received one of the many prayers I had been sent. Why do some think that they must always be telling others what to do. I do not like anyone telling me how to, or when to pray. In addition, it irritated me that people would write admonitions, and even threats, and call them prayers, so I asked myself why I was being so critical, and decided to check it out more closely. Exactly, I wanted to know, what was it about this particular prayer that I would change. So, I moved the prayer to Microsoft Word, and began to work on it. It took only about two minutes, I would suppose, before I deleted the whole thing, and began to write from scratch. Over two hours later with tears to my knees (figuratively speaking), I had a prayer, with no sermon in it. It was to God, not to man, because this is the only way I know to pray. Nor did I ask anyone to forward, repeat, or ever use, but I did send it out, with loving results. I have not written one since. But, I know what was bothering me about the other prayers; they did not seem to be to God, but to influence man to drop what he was doing and prepare himself for the next time tragedy struck. It was presumptuous, as though the writer assumed that everyone would want to repeat the prayer and send it to eight people, and so forth; and it gave the impression that to not be impressed sufficiently to follow his instructions could lead to trouble.
MORE RESP:………..Yes, I believe that we are the sons of God, and are His instruments and that we have done a very poor job—in general—of loving one another, of encouraging one another, myself included. Jesus taught us to love one another, and instead we fuss over doctrine and quarrel about religion. Some run around telling people they are born-again-Christians. Some say, “God loves you as though they are pronouncing an individual blessing on the person to whom they are speaking.” It seems rather silly to me to go around saying that unless one is a teacher. It means little or nothing to the people hearing it. Does this make any sense to you? If not, I apologize for going on and on, but I do this sometimes. Usually, I go back and delete a whole bunch, but I am going to leave this as is. You do not seem to have a very high opinion of believers anyway, so what have I to lose? It is sincere, and that is about the best I can give anyone.
You can't expect everyone to just take your word for it and done with it.
RESP: ……….I have no expectations. Why do you assume that I do?
is I do not have jesus in my heart, lungs, kidneys or liver, and as such can only question you because you apparently do.
RESP: ………See, that is silly stuff. I never said that I had Jesus in my heart, kidneys or liver. You do this all the time.
Destroy? That would make me right. I'm questioning your beliefs, if they get destroyed that's on your own part, not mine.
RESP: …..I said that you wanted to; I did not once imply that you could. Right?
From my perspective none of them has any more validity than any of the others. I would question a believer in Abellio as much as I would question a believer in Jesus.
RESP: …..So………?
Desperately is a pointless word here. My "non-belief" has been supported since my birth, and nobody has even come close to showing otherwise - in fact, all that a religious person has accomplished thus far is to make me even more of a "non-believer".
RESP: ……Are, or were you, expecting someone to convince you otherwise? Perhaps if you could give up that which binds you.
I didn't go so far as to say "there is no god,"
RESP: …….Of course, only you know for sure what you have said.
but what would make you think a bunch of 2000 year old people would know it any better than anyone else? What would make you think the biblical writers got god 'down to a T', instead of the Sumerians, the Hindu's, the Greeks?
RESP: ……I told you before that I did not learn of God from a book or a religion either. The only way you can truly know God is through you. All that other matters not. I should think that if you really want to know anything that you would want to find out for yourself, rather than looking to others to justify your continued disbelief. Once you know, you will not be so inclined to speculate about others. Once you are at peace, you will be less concerned about people’s preferences, I should think. Once you have joy, you will bring then bring joy to others. I promise.
No. If I was to "buy" into something other than what I already believe, then it would undoubtedly have a lot of supporting evidence, (maybe only to me), and thus would be a worthwhile move.
RESPONSE: ………………..Beautiful!…………………….
I would still however, expect people to question what and why I believe what I do. If it's that credible, every question would be answerable.
RESP: And my advice to you, at least -until you are much older and wiser- is that should such a beautiful thing happen you, “avoid foolish and unlearned questions.” It is a waste of time.
It wasn't "murky", it's a simple question:
RESP: ……No, it was not simple at all; you put a tail on it, a speculative tail. Besides, you gave me the option of answering only the questions I cared to, and I see no relevance to that one and care not to answer it.
What I think you need to understand is this...On my desk are 10 books of ancient texts. I look at book 1, then book 2 and so on until book 10. What is it that would give credence to the biblical texts over any of the others?
RESP: …..Why would I need to understand that?
No. You'd probably just state it's worrying or annoying to think people go to such lengths. I would respond saying it's essential that people do. It helps them gain an understanding of the characters portrayed, might help to show that they even existed in the first place, and is important when people claim how wonderful, educated, queer and god loving Paul was when they don't even fucking know him.
RESP: …….No hostility, huh?
Now see, that's a vast misunderstanding. It takes no work whatsoever to not believe in something that has nothing to show it exists.
RESP: …….Really? Then why do you go to such lengths?
Let me ask you, would you find it hard work not believing in the giant fruit pastille eating iguana from planet thwobble plop?
Regardless, I do not chase after people to find out why they believe what they do. Did you forget that part?
I do not ignore people, I find it rude.
RESP: ………..Well, that is good reason. I do not usually ignore people because my disposition will not allow it, and yes, it is rude.
The main problem is in understanding why someone would instantly accept some "supernatural" belief while denying others
RESP: Listen to me, my good fellow, it has absolutely nothing to do with denying others. That is my point that you apparently keep missing. You simply do not understand, and then make demands regarding matters that are totally unimportant to me insofar as my knowing God. Saying that I have nothing to prove is not a defense, it a fact. That you even believe that something so non-tangible can be proven is mind boggling, because I do not believe it for one second!
RESP CON’T: ……Therefore, all this talk about proof is ridiculous nonsense. I have told you why I believe, but you cannot accept it, because you seem to have this desire to get into things with which you seem to be familiar, but do not particularly interest me. Not to be unkind, but if you would like to discuss your books in an argumentative way, find someone who is interested.
How does a person just say, "well this god is the real one"?
RESP: ……..I suppose the same way that you might say that I am real, without having seen me.
Some texts claim there is only, and has only ever been one god, whereas other texts claim there's hundreds or thousands of god beings. The sky could quite literally be packed to the brim with gods, or completely devoid of them.
RESP: ……Could it?
Humans haven't even managed to figure the brain out completely yet, what would make anyone think anyone has god figured out, let alone people several thousand years ago?
RESP: .............Well, I have surely not figured you out yet, and you seem real enough!
Nowadays there are two distinct paths- those where truth comes from within, (religion), and those where truth comes from the outside, (science). One looks at everything around them and finds answers, while the other looks within themselves and finds answers. Science produces for everyone, religion produces for the individual.
RESP: ... Very good. See, you know stuff.
Again I agree. Unfortunately many people assign an instant answer to that which we do not understand. The very principle of not understanding something, is that you don't give it an instant answer that you accept outright. I'm not speaking of you personally, but this most certainly is the norm.
RESP: …….True, and many people spend their whole lives questioning everything, not meaning you, because you do seem to have other elements in your life, but I would like to see you more tolerant and less presumptuous. We are all in a process and sometimes it does seem that we have to walk through a mess to get to the good part, and then that is not the end of it either. This is why it is so important to have a joy that abides, and a peace that provides understanding.
RESP CON’T: …….You imply that you do not believe that Jesus lived ever, or am I wrong? Yet, let me tell you: I became aware of one of the most useful tools for living, and the truth of it became evident to me after having read the bible since I was twelve, after having completed Bible School, after having held several positions in church and church-related activities, and I had actually stopped going to church regularly. One day, some very familiar words worked their way into my heart, (or I finally owned them, if this makes more sense to you). These words: “Forgive them Father for they know not what they do,” moved in to stay! What wisdom can be found in these words!
MORE RESP: ……When their impact melted my “unforgiveness,” I took another step to realize that this must be an ongoing all-the-time process. The joy I received in really understanding the importance of, -not the words, “Forgive them, Father.” I had known the truth of those words since childhood. No, it was the latter phrase, “they know not what they do.” Wow! Of course! Once this was mine, I began an internal search to clear up a lot of misunderstanding, and then wrote an article claiming that we could change the past. That caused quite a stir, but I hold to it, because it happened for me.
But that's just a personal relation. Billions of people have no incling, understanding, or sign of gods existence, so proof remains essential does it not?
RESP: ……..No one proved it to me, nor could they have.
I live in the country.. I love nothing quite as much as trees, kingfishers, squirrels scampering around the woodland, the moon at night glistening upon a quiet planet, and leaves sway gently in the breeze. I love the smell of grass in the morning, the chattering of finches, the rippling of the lake as it winds it's way through the countryside. I smile at the field overrun by amazingly colourful flowers, and love listening to the woodpecker make his nest. More than that, I love to see the resident kestrel glide overhead.
RESP: ………Thank you for sharing that. What is a kestrel? As for trees, I suppose there are innumerable individuals who love trees.
RESP CON'T: When I was seven, my biological father picked me up in Bakersfield, where my mother lived, and took me to Oklahoma to stay with him and his family, which was not unlike a nightmare in too many ways. Yet, time and again that wonderment I experienced with nature rescued me. One day, coming home from school, I picked up a leaf that had fallen, and thought it was so pretty. I held it up for the sun to shine through, and counted the veins. Then I began to ponder all the different shapes and sizes of leaves, and different vein patterns. Finally, I had gathered my treasures, and sat myself under a big old tree with all my leaves, and did my analysis. Finally, and it seemed like no time at all, my cousin came yelling that my grandmother was really mad and I had best get home at once. She was no one to mess with, so I deserted my happy place and ran for home. She questioned me, and questioned me some more, not once believing that I had simply been looking at leaves. Finally, when I did not change my story, she issued punishment fit for a lying and disobedient child. Yet, what made me sadder than the punishment was that I had left all those pretty leaves behind.
The kestrel and I have a very interesting history. He played so much of a part in my upbringing it is insane. (Of course we're now talking about the kestrels grandkid).
RESP:………What is/was insane about it?
In all of this beauty, and even in all of the pain and suffering that also goes on in this world, nothing points to a god being. For some, I have no doubt it does, but for me, it doesn't.
RESP: ………….I have no idea what to say here.
I am a thinking man more than anything else.
RESP: ……..That is admirable, but once in a while we need to be still, and let our minds be still. How can God speak to you if your mind is always full and busy? When you are among the trees, listen to their message.
PMT
