Best Argument for the Existence of God

[Pollux V]

Lacking a drivers license, I tend to take the bus to school at the ungodly time of 7:15 in the morning. It being late-spring, the sun is already well into the sky, and it tends to be fairly warm and bright out. It was a beautiful day and the bus was rounding a lake, there wasn't a breath of wind in the air, and the water was just a perfect, perfect mirror. Not a ripple or a blur on the surface.

So, I got to thinking. Why does water reflect light?

Before the scientist within me began droning on about molecules and atoms and basic physics I immediately came to this conclusion:

F*ck if I know!

This is the argument for god, or for some kind of supreme deity. Everything works too well in the universe (even the abnormal stuff, like dark matter, that we don't understand just yet) to have formed on its own. Someone must have molded it with their own hands into the shape that it's in now. One way or another. Perhaps god did not create the universe, but instead was a biproduct of its creation, and then took control over it of his own control. I don't know for sure and I doubt that I ever will. But it's just a thought.

 

[doom]

The reflection in water in no better or worse an argument than just your very existence.

Ive heard it many times but it can be just:
youre here cos you are here,things are the way they are otherwise youll not be here to question it.

The light is there cos the sun,the sun is there cos the galaxy,the universe etc.

You question it all cos you are human,trying to come with terms of existence and your brain comes up with an error:

"does not compute sensory information"

When this happens the brain decides the logical conclusion is god,even though it in itself is paradoxical.

The problem with this brain error is it causes religion and can cause death,due to the fact the brain has become stuck like a needle on a record on an only possible solution to everything.

 

[Pollux V]

No, man you're not seeing my point. Your both thinking too much and not enough. You can see a huge underlying philosophy behind western society by just looking at the word etc. Etcetera fills in the blank, explains what is basically "common knowledge." However, after the universe there is no etcetera. There can be nothing more than everything, than the universe, which encompasses everything. We are back at square one. Science cannot explain why I found that lake so beautiful, nor why I thought that it was so beautiful that it could not have occured in nature. It's too perfect. Even our own language is clueless as to how to explain it all. The why is beyond.

Someone made it.

 

[ConsequentAtheist]

Originally posted by Pollux V
Someone must have molded it with their own hands into the shape that it's in now. One way or another.

Then He, She, or They did a piss poor job, and fully deserves the contempt ao all those who've suffered sinus problems or lower back pain. The main problem with "Intelligent Design" is that it isn't.

 

[Pollux V]

The main problem with "Intelligent Design" is that it isn't.

Yes it is. I can argue that the supreme deity meant for people to be stupid and to have lower back pain. It all somehow manages to fit and hold itself together perfectly even when you're b*tching about how bad your life is.

 

[spidergoat]

why the world seems to be created for us

Did you ever consider that the reason everything seems so perfect for us here on earth is that we grew into it. We adapted to this world, so it would be strange for things to seem too difficult.

The best argument against the existance of God is that huge chunks of rock are being hurled in our direction all the time. They hit the earth before, we can see the craters. Why is God trying to kill us?

-SG

 

[doom]

Originally posted by Pollux V
No, man you're not seeing my point. Your both thinking too much and not enough. You can see a huge underlying philosophy behind western society by just looking at the word etc. Etcetera fills in the blank, explains what is basically "common knowledge." However, after the universe there is no etcetera. There can be nothing more than everything, than the universe, which encompasses everything. We are back at square one. Science cannot explain why I found that lake so beautiful, nor why I thought that it was so beautiful that it could not have occured in nature. It's too perfect. Even our own language is clueless as to how to explain it all. The why is beyond.

Someone made it.

Hey what if WE made the universe!
Weve now probed things,what if one day we create something which sends "something" back before the existence of the big bang thereby creating the big bang.

Anything you create that is not "normal" could do this without paradox.

Possibly?
hey you cant know

 

[Pollux V]

spidergoat

You're forgetting--the earth is just a carbon atom in a sand molecule on a beach.

 

[Ectropic]

Originally posted by Pollux V
Yes it is. I can argue that the supreme deity meant for people to be stupid and to have lower back pain. It all somehow manages to fit and hold itself together perfectly even when you're b*tching about how bad your life is.

I can't argue with that. I would like to see the entire world bumped up 10 IQ points, but in all reality we need people that don't have that itch to learn and be more. Otherwise who would dig ditches and scrub dishes and pick up trash?

 

[doom]

Originally posted by Ectropic
I can't argue with that. I would like to see the entire world bumped up 10 IQ points, but in all reality we need people that don't have that itch to learn and be more. Otherwise who would dig ditches and scrub dishes and pick up trash?

I think thats rather harsh,making the assumption people in "lower" jobs dont want to learn and be more,and possible reference to lower intelligence.

It is a FACT however that religous people in studies have shown to be less intelligent (a lower IQ) than non religous people.

You have george w bush running your country,oh yes high intelligence there ,the most powerful man in the world is an idiot,youd be better off with a bucket of sheeps slop running things.

 

[your-cat-is-drunk]

yeah okay..uhuh

if thats your best argument for the exsistence of god then you're screwed because there is no god.

 

[atheroy]

pollux, water reflects because it is clear and works in the exact same way that a mirror works.

Moderator edit to remove personal insults which provide nothing useful to the discussion.

 

[Pollux V]

atheroy,

Thanks for the friendly post, man. Hope to see you around, you're obviously brimming with insight If you'd care to notice, the point of my original post wasn't the how, but the why. Light is reflected from water because the water is slightly polarized. Polarized surfaces tend to block light. But I don't care about that. The point is--it all works so well, and it's all too beautiful to be natural and normal.

if thats your best argument for the exsistence of god then you're screwed because there is no god

I'm not religious--let's get that clear. All it comes down to is a belief, not a science. You either believe or you don't. You can argue all you want, but the answer cannot be, as of now, proven succesfully either way. I don't believe. But if someone came up to me and said: "hey, isn't this place beautiful? Do you really believe this is natural? Come on man, someone must have made it." I'd say: "you could be right. Or you could not be. We all have to make our own choice."

And that's what it comes down to.

 

[atheroy]

The point is--it all works so well, and it's all too beautiful to be natural and normal.

natural and normal IS beautiful. it all works so well becasue it's had millions of years to come into its own. and how can you define natural and normal as not beautiful if you have nothing to compare it to (as far as i'm concerned natural and normal is all we know). i didn't reply to the idea in your post because i thought it was flawed and wasn't worth addressing. instead i thought it might be nice to point out the ridiculous way you prove your point about 'god', i know you knew why water reflected, everyone does. sorry if the post was not briming with insight but seeing you started off the trend i thought "why break it?". you'd be a screem to talk to aswell, i bet.

 

[Pollux V]

When you see a nice piece of artwork do you think that it has no artist? Does it have to be on a canvas to be a work of art? How is the real world any different, in all honesty? The water thing was just an example I used, it triggered the question--who is the artist? Hypothetically I think the world is beautiful, and that it is unnatural. That it is unnatural means that it is artificial--that it was made by someone.

you'd be a screem to talk to aswell, i bet

Yes I'm quite the character I assure you.

 

[daktaklakpak]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

So perfect, natual, and normal are all objective views.

So is the idea of god.

 

[Pollux V]

Bloody Hell

I was waiting for someone to say that.

The only rebuttal I can think of is this--the universe isn't tearing itself apart just yet (don't we have a few billion years?). It seems to be working. That I have, to the best of my knowledge, known nothing besides the universe is not to my argument's credit, but it's the best I can do, okay?

So shut the hell up and no pun intended.

 

[CHRISCUNNINGHAM]

I have come to the conlcusion when arguing in another thread about why a God is necessary while unecessary, and I have come to the confounding conclusion....

Purpose.

Everyone believes their is a purpose for everything, scientists, atheists, and theists alike.

But in fact purpose is completely irrelevant, for purpose does not fundamentally exist.

When dealing with Cause and Effect, this becomes observable.

Every Cause(purpose) produces an Effect, which then becomes a Cause for a proceeding Effect, and so on. This then leads us to believe that every Cause was once an Effect.

BUT....

...if this is so, consequently nothing should be happening, for there had to be a first cause, and if it was first then there should be nothing preceding it.

Thus, the universe can simply have no cause. Order, human life, human conciousness, no purpose at all, and in fact irrelavent, because all that exists is nothing.

SO there are two paths to take....

Though our universe is complex, ornate, and bewildering, these attributes are extraneous to having a purpose.

Or God made it, for no reason, and He exists for no reason.

 

[ConsequentAtheist]

Originally posted by Pollux V
When you see a nice piece of artwork do you think that it has no artist? ... How is the real world any different, in all honesty?

You claim this array of inelegance, inefficiency, and jury-rigged design to be like "a nice piece of artwork", but you simply expose yourself as a poor judge of art.

 

[Ectropic]

Originally posted by CHRISCUNNINGHAM
...if this is so, consequently nothing should be happening, for there had to be a first cause, and if it was first then there should be nothing preceding it.

The purpose itself is the reason so many religions exist and why they are essential to so many people's lives. Believing in a god (or many gods, or a totem pole, or the metal birds that drop food to your village) is a way for people to give their lives some sort of meaning. So many people lives just flat out suck that they have a need for belief in something more.

When it comes down to it though, you are right about the cause and effect being a part of that purpose. It is built in to us and taught in religions through commandments and rules. If God is the cause of it all though, you can never answer the question of what God is the effect of.