Believing in an afterlife

[James R]

I know what I believe and its affect on my life. I wanted to know what other people believe. Is that a crime?

This is a discussion forum.

Why aren't you willing to give anything of yourself, when you're asking other people to do exactly that?

Is that fair?

 

[Magical Realist]

Why aren't you willing to give anything of yourself

I already have in a couple of posts above. You even responded to one. So your typical whining about me is falling on deaf ears. As usual you are just trolling me for whatever sick pleasure that gives you. Move along now,,

 

[Hapsburg]

Would you live your life in any different way if you believed in an afterlife? If you didn't believe in an afterlife? Would your outlook on life change? Would you be less afraid of dying? More afraid? Or the same..

I do believe in an afterlife. But I live my life much the same as I did before I believed in such a thing, as I do now. I do not think one's form of life after death is dependent on the morality of one's actions in life.

 

[davewhite04]

I don't think believing in an afterlife necessarily entails having religious beliefs.

The whole concept of an afterlife came from religious beliefs, and it makes sense now. What we've got here is a "spiritualist" hopping on the afterlife wagon created by religious beliefs and declaring some sort of none religious afterlife based on nothing.

To answer your OP... I do believe there is an afterlife and I'm okay with it. I live without thinking about it, but if I'm suicidal I think about it a lot and it influences my life at the time.

 

[foghorn]

The whole concept of an afterlife came from religious beliefs, and it makes sense now. What we've got here is a "spiritualist" hopping on the afterlife wagon created by religious beliefs and declaring some sort of none religious afterlife based on nothing.

Cart before the horse ?
You seem to be saying that bereavement experiences such as those described by (non-religious people) MR, Bells and Pinball, never happened in very ancient pre-religious times.
Meaning, it may have been such bereavement experiences that gave rise to religions.
Can you show those kind of bereavement experiences never happened back then, or is it your guess?

 

[davewhite04]

Cart before the horse ?
You seem to be saying that bereavement experiences such as those described by (non-religious people) MR, Bells and Pinball, never happened in very ancient pre-religious times.
Meaning, it may have been such bereavement experiences that gave rise to religions.
Can you show those kind of bereavement experiences never happened back then, or is it your guess?

The only evidence we have is written down regarding the afterlife, and it's always been in a religious context. It's you who's guessing.

 

[foghorn]

The only evidence we have is written down regarding the afterlife, and it's always been in a religious context. It's you who's guessing.

Religions (ideas) are explanations for afterlives. The religion itself would not explain its own origin. I’m saying the origins of some religions maybe the natural bereavement experiences of people grieving passed loved ones.

 

[davewhite04]

Religions (ideas) are explanations for afterlives. The religion itself would not explain its own origin. I’m saying the origins of some religions maybe the natural bereavement experiences of people grieving passed loved ones.

Religion is synonymous with the earliest human beings. Could this of been developed after a belief in afterlife, I doubt it but would entertain solid evidence.

 

[Magical Realist]

The belief in the spirits of the dead, as well as the placating of them with rituals and offerings, goes back thousands of years and probably even to prehistoric times. This was before religion began to rear its ugly head in the agricultural societies of Sumeria and Egypt. Belief in an afterlife no more requires belief in God than belief in this life does. It's just a change of venue.

 

[foghorn]

Religion is synonymous with the earliest human beings. Could this of been developed after a belief in afterlife, I doubt it but would entertain solid evidence.

My bold

One has to observe the sunrise each day before you can assign a reason as to why it does.
~Khepri, dung beetle.~
The same maybe said with the afterlife idea. I’m saying (again) maybe the 'observation' by early humans of others saying they have'seen or heard' a recently passed loved one, (what we call today, an emotional bereavement experience).This may also have led to placing items with the dead body for later use by the deceased.
Over time these ideas evolve into a set of joint ideas which one might call a religion.

 

[Pinball1970]

The belief in the spirits of the dead, as well as the placating of them with rituals and offerings, goes back thousands of years and probably even to prehistoric times. This was before religion began to rear its ugly head in the agricultural societies of Sumeria and Egypt.

Placating the dead or helping them on to the next world was their ritual and religion.

Burial as opposed to funeral cache goes back about 100,000 years.
Bergers work takes that date a lot further back but his work has come under a lot of criticism.

 

[davewhite04]

The belief in the spirits of the dead, as well as the placating of them with rituals and offerings, goes back thousands of years and probably even to prehistoric times. This was before religion began to rear its ugly head in the agricultural societies of Sumeria and Egypt. Belief in an afterlife no more requires belief in God than belief in this life does. It's just a change of venue.

gods have existed since civilisation begun and probably 200k ago(If we have existed that long), just like spirits. The only evidence we can use is written evidence, one of the oldest texts we have contain gods of various employments, the Epic of Gilgamesh.

 

[davewhite04]

My bold

One has to observe the sunrise each day before you can assign a reason as to why it does.
~Khepri, dung beetle.~
The same maybe said with the afterlife idea. I’m saying (again) maybe the 'observation' by early humans of others saying they have'seen or heard' a recently passed loved one, (what we call today, an emotional bereavement experience).This may also have led to placing items with the dead body for later use by the deceased.
Over time these ideas evolve into a set of joint ideas which one might call a religion.

None of that makes sense. You seem determined to get one over on religion, but you're making no sense. Simply placing items with a dead body is religious.

 

[foghorn]

None of that makes sense. You seem determined to get one over on religion, but you're making no sense. Simply placing items with a dead body is religious.

Reading ancient text about a certain religion’s beliefs and practices will only inform you of just that.
Are there ancient texts about the origins of those religious beliefs and practices?

You seem determined to get one over on religion

Where you going there?
Do you feel threatened by a non-religious origin to the idea of an afterlife.See my post #27
Dave, would there have to be a deity in your understanding of an afterlife?

 

[davewhite04]

Reading ancient text about a certain religion’s beliefs and practices will only inform you of just that.
Are there ancient texts about the origins of those religious beliefs and practices?

Nope. But they're are not about some sort of godless spiritual afterlife either.

Where you going there?
Do you feel threatened by a non-religious origin to the idea of an afterlife.See my post #27
Dave, would there have to be a deity in your understanding of an afterlife?

Threatened? No, annoyed at the ignorance.

The evidence suggests gods are heavily linked to beliefs in an afterlife, no evidence of some sort of spiritual afterlife with no gods. It's not until now, when people have truned their back on gods/God that they want to make this shit up.

 

[DaveC426913]

The evidence suggests gods are heavily linked to beliefs in an afterlife, no evidence of some sort of spiritual afterlife with no gods..

I'd say you're overreaching your conclusion here.

It's pretty hard to declare there's no evidence of afterlife without Gods. Religions have excellent PR agents, and they certainly are vocal about their history, but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

It's not until now, when people have truned their back on gods/God that they want to make this shit up.

Really?? What are gods and religion if not "making shit up"? You shoot yourself in the foot with that line of reasoning.

Your beliefs versus spiritual beliefs just comes down to who has the better PR agent.

That's Argumentum ad Populum. Invalid.

 

[davewhite04]

It's pretty hard to declare there's no evidence of afterlife without Gods. Religions have excellent PR agents, and they certainly are vocal about their history, but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

It got nothing to do with PR, it's scientific. All evidence points to religion before spiritualism. Idol worship being one of the first evidences of this. What evidence have you got?

Really?? What are gods and religion if not "making shit up"? You shoot yourself in the foot with that line of reasoning.

How do you know they're made up?

Your beliefs versus spiritual beliefs just comes down to who has the better PR agent.

Prove it.

 

[DaveC426913]

It got nothing to do with PR, it's scientific. All evidence points to religion before spiritualism.
Idol worship being one of the first evidences of this.

Idol worship shows that there are some (perhaps even most) cases of religion associated with afterlife; it does not show that all of them are.

And you are claiming that there are no cases of afterlife without religion and gods. That is an indefensible claim for reasons I will explain.

How do you know they're made up?

How do I know gods and the afterlife are made up?

Didn't you just bring science to the table? Are you prepared to show scientific evidence of gods and of the afterlife?

You'd be wise to take a step back from this particular line of argument. It is, by far, the shakiest corner of your stance, and if you lean on it, it will bring your whole case down around your ears.

Prove it.

You are the one making a claim here. Essentially that 'there are no cases of X'. (X being afterlife without gods.)
Foghorn is simply saying that 'X is possible'. It is much more moderate stance to take.
You have the burden to prove your strong claim.

The fact that religions are generally highly-organized and highly-documented does not mean that unorganized, undocumented practises did not exist; it simply means religion enjoys the benefits of strong PR lasting through the ages.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that religious texts are other artifacts are the sum total and accurate cross-sectional picture of what all life and society used to be like around the globe. That would be analogous to assuming that the only dinosaur species that ever lived are the ones we've found fossils for. In truth, the vast majority of species that lived did not produce recoverable fossils. We know there is a vast store of knowledge we don't have. Likewise, the vast majority of death practices will have gone undocumented (in no small part because such societies often didn't have writing, or long-lived document methods, or long-lived popularity).

That creates a very strong selection bias that you are misinterpreting as compelling evidence of a verdict.

No. We don't enough to draw such a conclusion. What we do know is that it is folly to make black and white "can't be" claims about things we know we don't have a comprehenisve picture of. Which is what you are tring to do. Thus: an overreaching conclusion.

 

[davewhite04]

Idol worship shows that there are some (perhaps even most) cases of religion associated with afterlife; it does not show that all of them are.

And you are claiming that there are no cases of afterlife without religion and gods. That is an indefensible claim for reasons I will explain.

I'm amazed you're arguing this.

How do I know gods and the afterlife are made up?

Didn't you just bring science to the table? Are you prepared to show scientific evidence of gods and of the afterlife?

I'm talking about archaeology. All the evidence points to god/goddess worship in all ancient civilisations. And if you thought the cavemen danced around with dead ancestors be my guest. Prove it.

You'd be wise to take a step back from this particular line of argument. It is, by far, the shakiest corner of your stance, and if you lean on it, it will bring your whole case down around your ears.

You'd be wise to think.

 

[DaveC426913]

I'm amazed you're arguing this.

Why?

Note: I am not saying you're wrong, simply that your conclusion is based on weak premises.

I'm talking about archaeology. All the evidence points to god/goddess worship in all ancient civilisations. And if you thought the cavemen danced around with dead ancestors be my guest. Prove it.

I'm not trying to prove anything - unlike you, I've made no claims. I'm simply pointing out that your conclusion is an overreach.

You'd be wise to think.

Them's trollin' words.

If you have to troll, you've lost control.