Belief in God to be saved is unjust, life without God is better.

[jayleew]

Christians, depending on sect, have varying views of heaven and how to get there. But the all require a belief in Christ.

This is an unjust requirement. We are all predispositioned at birth as individuals. Then, we are all taught to believe different things. Some things, we come to reject. Others are burned in to our core being as it is compatible with our predisposition. These ideas can be true or false, but they are part of who we are.

It is wrong to require belief in someone like me who would have to deny who I am and live a lie in order to believe. If there is a just god (which would be one that I would follow) then it seems to be an outrageous requirement. I lived a lie and denied myself for 10 years. I locked away all my doubts in a closet in my mind, and completely embraced the teachings in the Bible. I studied it and lived it. It helped me even keep everything locked in the closet. It was a terrible battle of the mind to ignore what my mind was telling me. Sometimes it was worse than others, but I clung to the Bible and fellow Christians like a good Christian should.

I had little control over who I am today, but I do have a choice. And I tried for 10 years of my adult life to shut away who I am to follow that one requirement. I thought as long as I kept on believing, one day God would make this belief real. It's all I could possibly do to believe. I couldn't erase everything I absorbed before then as a child. I distinctly remember when I was 19 I nearly became atheist. But, I finally chose to lock it away because I found issues with evolution being the tool that resulted in human beings. Boy did I jump into Christianity after that choice. I did give it an honest effort for 10 years.

It is wrong for a god to require me to believe to reach heaven just as it is wrong for me to require a theist to not believe in order to live.

Believing in god is totally against what I am, when I stopped forcing the belief as was required, that's when the healing started in my life. Everything came together and made sense. Peace and love grew in me and my family. I realized how much I was missing out in the things that mattered in life. I was suddenly accountable for the actions I inspire in others by my word or deed.

As a Christian it was too easy to forget that everything we say and do impacts the world around us because Christians are taught that worship is about serving God. Everything you do, even to others is an act of worship if done according to scripture. It is more ego-centric, not completely, but more self-centered. After all, you would only be accountable for the sin you comitted, not another's.

I shouldn't even mention that the blood of Jesus covers all sin, so everyone is free of it if they believe. If Christians are free of their own sin, and were never accountable for the sins of others, are they going to care as much about others as they do themselves?

A change happened as I focused on making the world a better place instead of waiting around until a god would come set everything right.

 

[John99]

The only one who has to be happy with a decision like that is yourself.

 

[jayleew]

The only one who has to be happy with a decision like that is yourself.

It is beyond happiness. It is peace that is passed understanding. It is a Snickers bar of enlightenment. And I am surprised to find other folks on this forum have came to the same point. It makes me curious, which is always exciting.

 

[John99]

It is beyond happiness. It is peace that is passed understanding. It is a Snickers bar of enlightenment. And I am surprised to find other folks on this forum have came to the same point. It makes me curious, which is always exciting.

I am mainly agnostic. TBH, these things never really effected me one way or another.

 

[John99]

I did have one NDE and it had an effect on me. Perhaps i shouldnt discuss it but if you want to know what happened just ask me.

 

[Lori_7]

This is an unjust requirement. We are all predispositioned at birth as individuals. Then, we are all taught to believe different things. Some things, we come to reject. Others are burned in to our core being as it is compatible with our predisposition. These ideas can be true or false, but they are part of who we are.

It is wrong to require belief in someone like me who would have to deny who I am and live a lie in order to believe. If there is a just god (which would be one that I would follow) then it seems to be an outrageous requirement. I lived a lie and denied myself for 10 years. I locked away all my doubts in a closet in my mind, and completely embraced the teachings in the Bible. I studied it and lived it. It helped me even keep everything locked in the closet. It was a terrible battle of the mind to ignore what my mind was telling me. Sometimes it was worse than others, but I clung to the Bible and fellow Christians like a good Christian should.

I had little control over who I am today, but I do have a choice. And I tried for 10 years of my adult life to shut away who I am to follow that one requirement. I thought as long as I kept on believing, one day God would make this belief real. It's all I could possibly do to believe. I couldn't erase everything I absorbed before then as a child. I distinctly remember when I was 19 I nearly became atheist. But, I finally chose to lock it away because I found issues with evolution being the tool that resulted in human beings. Boy did I jump into Christianity after that choice. I did give it an honest effort for 10 years.

It is wrong for a god to require me to believe to reach heaven just as it is wrong for me to require a theist to not believe in order to live.

Believing in god is totally against what I am, when I stopped forcing the belief as was required, that's when the healing started in my life. Everything came together and made sense. Peace and love grew in me and my family. I realized how much I was missing out in the things that mattered in life. I was suddenly accountable for the actions I inspire in others by my word or deed.

As a Christian it was too easy to forget that everything we say and do impacts the world around us because Christians are taught that worship is about serving God. Everything you do, even to others is an act of worship if done according to scripture. It is more ego-centric, not completely, but more self-centered. After all, you would only be accountable for the sin you comitted, not another's.

I shouldn't even mention that the blood of Jesus covers all sin, so everyone is free of it if they believe. If Christians are free of their own sin, and were never accountable for the sins of others, are they going to care as much about others as they do themselves?

A change happened as I focused on making the world a better place instead of waiting around until a god would come set everything right.

you sound confused, and egotistically tied to either believing or not believing. i think that comes from religion. a lot of times being a part of a religious group means saying that you believe in something that you really don't know for sure.

why don't you just say you don't know and have an open mind? religion can be such a turn off it almost makes you not want to know. would you want to know?

if there was a god, and what christ is all about...

 

[jayleew]

you sound confused, and egotistically tied to either believing or not believing. i think that comes from religion. a lot of times being a part of a religious group means saying that you believe in something that you really don't know for sure.

why don't you just say you don't know and have an open mind? religion can be such a turn off it almost makes you not want to know. would you want to know?

if there was a god, and what christ is all about...

I can argue either way, my mission is to attack potentially or clearly flawed reasons in order to find out what is left when the dust settles.

I have not decided, but I default to atheism because the Bible cannot be proven, and some things in there I see are unfair. And this is the reason for the thread.

To give theists and Christians a chance to see the torment god causes to us "Doubting Thomas's" If the disciple Thomas was alive today, he might be like me, but instead was afforded the grace to have proof. Jesus told him, "You believe because you have seen. Blessed are those who believe and have not seen."

I do not believe because I have not seen, but if I saw, I would believe. So, I'm not blessed, I'm cursed. This forces me to either accept that I am cursed with a mind, or that god doesn't exist. Now maybe you see how liberating it was to throw down my faith in God.

What do you say theists, is god still a fair god, or are the scriptures flawed?

 

[Lori_7]

I can argue either way, my mission is to attack potentially or clearly flawed reasons in order to find out what is left when the dust settles.

I have not decided, but I default to atheism because the Bible cannot be proven, and some things in there I see are unfair. And this is the reason for the thread.

how do you know the bible can't be "proven"?

 

[jayleew]

how do you know the bible can't be "proven"?

If any of the events can be proven as historical fact AND were messages from God, then the Bible is proven to be written by divination. But, you can't prove God, so you can't prove the Bible, even if you could prove the Bible's events and characters existed or happened. The theist might say I can't disprove it, and I digress.

The point of this thread however is to discover if the Bible's teachings is just or is its god depicted incorrectly as being a just god.

 

[Lori_7]

If any of the events can be proven as historical fact AND were messages from God, then the Bible is proven to be written by divination. But, you can't prove God, so you can't prove the Bible, even if you could prove the Bible's events and characters existed or happened. The theist might say I can't disprove it, and I digress.

The point of this thread however is to discover if the Bible's teachings is just or is its god depicted incorrectly as being a just god.

i think that "just" is implied in "god".

anyhoo, what if it were simply "proven to be meaningful to you"?

it's not even about that right? it's about who's right and who's wrong, and i think the only logical conclusion is that we're all wrong. when it comes to religion, both sides fail to see the forrest through the trees. i don't think too many people actually want to see the forrest because they're quite comfortable bickering about the damn trees. it's maddening.

don't you think that the question "is there a god?" is an important one in the grand scheme of things? i can testify that knowledge causes quite a change in one's perception.

and don't you think that if there is a god, it would be able to prove it's existence to you? personally?

 

[jayleew]

i think that "just" is implied in "god".

anyhoo, what if it were simply "proven to be meaningful to you"?

it's not even about that right? it's about who's right and who's wrong, and i think the only logical conclusion is that we're all wrong. when it comes to religion, both sides fail to see the forrest through the trees. i don't think too many people actually want to see the forrest because they're quite comfortable bickering about the damn trees. it's maddening.

Quite right.

don't you think that the question "is there a god?" is an important one in the grand scheme of things? i can testify that knowledge causes quite a change in one's perception.

and don't you think that if there is a god, it would be able to prove it's existence to you? personally?

Yes, if it is a fair god yes, it should and would. This is what I am saying. I don't believe because it hasn't or doesn't want to. But until that time, we are to assume the belief when it isn't in our hearts, just for the sake of following the scriptures which say that it is a requirement?

 

[Lori_7]

Quite right.



Yes, if it is a fair god yes, it should and would. This is what I am saying. I don't believe because it hasn't or doesn't want to. But until that time, we are to assume the belief when it isn't in our hearts, just for the sake of following the scriptures which say that it is a requirement?

no. i really don't see how that is even possible. it seems like it would be a lie. the bible says "seek and you'll find. knock and the door will open". with me, i wasn't seeking from another human being, knocking on the door of a church, or trying to convince myself one way or the other via some intellectual endeavor. i wanted to know for personal reasons. it wasn't like i was trying to be included in some group, because quite honestly, i was not impressed with that group at all. i wasn't really even concerned with being saved or getting to heaven necessarily, i just wanted to know, whatever the consequences would be, bad or good. and the way i was shown was always through personal experience and interaction. it didn't involve anyone but me. it was just for me. and it was perfect.

i think god respects and responds to honesty and humility. a child-like mentality. not trying to put a spin on things. i don't get the impression that god is a big fan of religion at all. i think that if i had been alone on a deserted island, with no religion, no books, and no one else, that god could have just as easily shown himself to me, guided me, and let me know what i needed to know.

 

[Adstar]

I can argue either way, my mission is to attack potentially or clearly flawed reasons in order to find out what is left when the dust settles.

I have not decided, but I default to atheism because the Bible cannot be proven, and some things in there I see are unfair. And this is the reason for the thread.

To give theists and Christians a chance to see the torment god causes to us "Doubting Thomas's" If the disciple Thomas was alive today, he might be like me, but instead was afforded the grace to have proof. Jesus told him, "You believe because you have seen. Blessed are those who believe and have not seen."

I do not believe because I have not seen, but if I saw, I would believe. So, I'm not blessed, I'm cursed. This forces me to either accept that I am cursed with a mind, or that god doesn't exist. Now maybe you see how liberating it was to throw down my faith in God.

What do you say theists, is god still a fair god, or are the scriptures flawed?

It has absolutely nothing to do with what you have seen or what you have not seen.

You have declared your disagreement with God by stating that the Bible is "unfair" This is the foundation of your rejection of the God of Abraham.

Let me ask you this. If you had some vision and you could see God would that make you change your judgement upon God as being "Unfair"? Would you be anything but a traitor to your sense of justice by following someone whom you have judged unfair/ unjust? Even if you knew without a doubt He Existed?

I tell you there are a lot of satanists who believe that the God of Abraham exists but they don't follow or worship Him, they worship lucifer and hope that satan will somehow defeat the God of Abraham.

So seeing God or not has nothing to do with accepting His will. First one must accept His will. That is the key to eternity with Him.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[wynn]

Yes, if it is a fair god yes, it should and would. This is what I am saying. I don't believe because it hasn't or doesn't want to. But until that time, we are to assume the belief when it isn't in our hearts, just for the sake of following the scriptures which say that it is a requirement?

Are you familiar with William James' essays "The will to believe" and "Is life worth living?" - ? Both are available online.

I think he explains quite well matters of belief, and especially how a person comes to believe something.

I really recommend these two essays.

 

[Warrior61]

This is an unjust requirement. We are all predispositioned at birth as individuals. Then, we are all taught to believe different things. Some things, we come to reject. Others are burned in to our core being as it is compatible with our predisposition. These ideas can be true or false, but they are part of who we are.

It is wrong to require belief in someone like me who would have to deny who I am and live a lie in order to believe. If there is a just god (which would be one that I would follow) then it seems to be an outrageous requirement. I lived a lie and denied myself for 10 years. I locked away all my doubts in a closet in my mind, and completely embraced the teachings in the Bible. I studied it and lived it. It helped me even keep everything locked in the closet. It was a terrible battle of the mind to ignore what my mind was telling me. Sometimes it was worse than others, but I clung to the Bible and fellow Christians like a good Christian should.

I had little control over who I am today, but I do have a choice. And I tried for 10 years of my adult life to shut away who I am to follow that one requirement. I thought as long as I kept on believing, one day God would make this belief real. It's all I could possibly do to believe. I couldn't erase everything I absorbed before then as a child. I distinctly remember when I was 19 I nearly became atheist. But, I finally chose to lock it away because I found issues with evolution being the tool that resulted in human beings. Boy did I jump into Christianity after that choice. I did give it an honest effort for 10 years.

It is wrong for a god to require me to believe to reach heaven just as it is wrong for me to require a theist to not believe in order to live.

Believing in god is totally against what I am, when I stopped forcing the belief as was required, that's when the healing started in my life. Everything came together and made sense. Peace and love grew in me and my family. I realized how much I was missing out in the things that mattered in life. I was suddenly accountable for the actions I inspire in others by my word or deed.

As a Christian it was too easy to forget that everything we say and do impacts the world around us because Christians are taught that worship is about serving God. Everything you do, even to others is an act of worship if done according to scripture. It is more ego-centric, not completely, but more self-centered. After all, you would only be accountable for the sin you comitted, not another's.

I shouldn't even mention that the blood of Jesus covers all sin, so everyone is free of it if they believe. If Christians are free of their own sin, and were never accountable for the sins of others, are they going to care as much about others as they do themselves?

A change happened as I focused on making the world a better place instead of waiting around until a god would come set everything right.

2 things.

1. Your first premise "We are all predispositioned at birth as individuals" is unproven. Show evidence please.

2. You put a lot of weight on proving Scripture according to historical facts or records. I am curious how I could even prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt that you exist, as for you to prove that I exist. I would love for you to demonstrate this.

Thanks!

 

[jayleew]

2 things.

1. Your first premise "We are all predispositioned at birth as individuals" is unproven. Show evidence please.

This is common knowledge, I have yet to meet an infant that has exactly the same temperment and condition and in the same environment. Aside from this, we all have different mother's, who are all different and unique. I did not choose my mother, therefore I was predispositioned to have her as a mother, instead of your mother.

2. You put a lot of weight on proving Scripture according to historical facts or records. I am curious how I could even prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt that you exist, as for you to prove that I exist. I would love for you to demonstrate this.

Thanks!

Of course you are right that at somepoint, a choice is still required to accept the facts of record as truth.

 

[jayleew]

Are you familiar with William James' essays "The will to believe" and "Is life worth living?" - ? Both are available online.

I think he explains quite well matters of belief, and especially how a person comes to believe something.

I really recommend these two essays.

I read the first essay once. I need a lot more time with it to digest, but my first reaction is most of what he is saying has already been stated somewhere on these forums. The ideas are not new here, but they are well stated. Adstar needs to read it and take note, as it explains some things that I have been trying to get across.

Thanks for the post.

 

[Lori_7]

2 things.

1. Your first premise "We are all predispositioned at birth as individuals" is unproven. Show evidence please.

DNA (duh).

 

[Jan Ardena]

jayleew,

To give theists and Christians a chance to see the torment god causes to us "Doubting Thomas's" If the disciple Thomas was alive today, he might be like me, but instead was afforded the grace to have proof. Jesus told him, "You believe because you have seen. Blessed are those who believe and have not seen."

You're acting as though you're experience is the experience of everyone who believes inGod. And now you want to change the world.
Did you have those same characteristics when you were christian?

You say you defaulted to atheism. But have you considered the possibility that you were atheist all along, but somehow felt the need to continue the facade of belief in God?

I do not believe because I have not seen, but if I saw, I would believe. So, I'm not blessed, I'm cursed. This forces me to either accept that I am cursed with a mind, or that god doesn't exist. Now maybe you see how liberating it was to throw down my faith in God.

I can indeed, if you didn't believe in God in the first place.

jan.

 

[jayleew]

You're acting as though you're experience is the experience of everyone who believes inGod. And now you want to change the world.
Did you have those same characteristics when you were christian?

It's not, but my experience is not unique I'm not that special. There has to be other Chrisitans that are either trapped in the religion that need to be freed, or perhaps I can be enlightened by a theist of sorts into the truth.

You say you defaulted to atheism. But have you considered the possibility that you were atheist all along, but somehow felt the need to continue the facade of belief in God?

No, present tense: I default (or digress) to atheism now. I was a theist before. I consider the option that I was atheist all along, and there is no way that is possible because of my experiences, my heart's desire, and my conviction were so strong I remember moments of time in my service to the deity: God.

In the later years of my theist walk, it transformed into a facade. The change took years of hot and cold belief. Throughout it all, I would not lie and profess I believe without first choosing to shut away the doubt and call for strength. As a worship song leader, I sometimes had to do this quickly, and choose to believe as I heard the words and accepted them on faith. But, I was lying to myself.

When i stopped doing that and acknowledged the doubt (facts of reality based on experience and knowledge) as a live option, that started me down the path to enlightenment of life. If God exists, how can the quality of life improve? What purpose does that serve, especially when I repeatedly asked for faith? I did this in the last days because of Pascal's wager seemed logical enough. I gave God years of my life and years of chances to prove itself, but reality cannot be denied and shut away. It was unhealthy to me, and likely is unhealthy to others who are like I was.

And why does God require belief to be saved. For me, I would have to lie to myself to believe. How is that just? Even when I wanted so bad to believe and be delivered from the state of existence, the situation did not improve over the years. How is that fair? And the last straw is how is it fair when God itself is at least partially responsible for who I am today, if it exists. It is at least partially responsible for my unbelief.

If we are to believe that God exists, we must believe that it is capable of influencing life and does. So, if we are to believe in God, we must accept that chances are good that our lives were shaped by experiences and knowledge that we gained by being in the right place at the right time and that was influenced by God, especially for the first 10 years of our existence when we had little say in choosing the experience. If we are to believe that God exists, then we must believe that God allowed us to become what we are. In doing so, that would make it partially responsible for everyone....some are blessed some are cursed. How is it just that God then commands me to believe to make it into heaven when it made me an unbeliever?