Before Jesus

F

Frisbinator

Registered Senior Member
This question is for the Christians out there.

What happens to the souls of the people who had never heard of God or Jesus, since the beginning of mankind?

Please don't answer this if you're not a Christian, thanks.
 
The Church teaches the tradition that Jesus entered into the underworld and rescued those who had no benefit of redemption before the crucifixion. This is why Jesus could say to the theif on the cross "you will be with me in paradise this very evening" But how could that be if the theif was not babtized and died before Jesus did?

Jesus went to the underworld and released the souls of the just.

Just like the theif on the cross, those who trusted God would not perish forever, but could enter paradise.
 
Did these souls know that they were dead?

Were they judged by their actions in the physical world? If so then that would hardly be fair since they would not have had the beenfit of JCs teachings to guide them.

An essential part of Christianity is that each person has the chance to request Jesus for forgiveness and accept him as their savior. Were these souls given that free choice? However, if they knew they were dead and probably destined for hell they'd be pretty daft not to accept him, right? If that is the case then that wouldn't be fair to those who haven't died yet since they have no certainty that there is an afterlife.

So exactly how does all this occur?

And if the whole business of asking for forgiveness etc isn't necessary then why bother with the whole JC thing?
 
These souls were not judged, since the judgement occurs beyond time. As far as I can tell, they entered into the depths of the earth and remained their as shadows until Christ brought them out. They were not tormented if they had lived good lives, however, if they lived bad lives, like say Achilles, they were punished or did penance for transgressing the natural law.

This was not Hell, since not knowing Christ they had no responsibility thereof.
So it is with all those who never heard of Christ, for God is just and men are judged by knowledge of right and wrong.

Hell is for everyone thats been introduced properly to Christ but still continued in unbelief or Sin. It is the worst of all possible punishments because it the effect of an eternal choice which the soul has made in its terrestrial existance. for a soul to go to Hell is an unspeakable evil. Christ does not wish any soul to go there, thats why we must be very clear about our doctrine.
 
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Frisbinator said:
This question is for the Christians out there.

What happens to the souls of the people who had never heard of God or Jesus, since the beginning of mankind?

Please don't answer this if you're not a Christian, thanks.
Click to expand...

My answer is pretty much the same as lawdog. I have been searching for the scriptures that tell of this but i have not found it. I will try to get back to you on this.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
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But hell isn't a place. According to revelations hell is the grave - the first death where everyone goes, and the lake of fire is the second death where those who have been judged unworthy are destroyed.

There is no eternal torture, as you imply, according to the bible.

The bible doesn't support the popular belief of a place called hell.
 
There most certany is a place of eternal suffering. The Lake of fire is that place.

Revelation 14
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Adstar said:
My answer is pretty much the same as lawdog. I have been searching for the scriptures that tell of this but i have not found it. I will try to get back to you on this.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Click to expand...

Ok i have found the scriptures:

1 Peter 3
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us[e] to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

The prison is believed to be hell.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Lawdog said:
These souls were not judged, since the judgement occurs beyond time. As far as I can tell, they entered into the depths of the earth and remained their as shadows until Christ brought them out. They were not tormented if they had lived good lives, however, if they lived bad lives, like say Achilles, they were punished or did penance for transgressing the natural law.

This was not Hell, since not knowing Christ they had no responsibility thereof.
So it is with all those who never heard of Christ, for God is just and men are judged by knowledge of right and wrong.

Hell is for everyone thats been introduced properly to Christ but still continued in unbelief or Sin. It is the worst of all possible punishments because it the effect of an eternal choice which the soul has made in its terrestrial existance. for a soul to go to Hell is an unspeakable evil. Christ does not wish any soul to go there, thats why we must be very clear about our doctrine.
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That means that God will give the neanderthals a break. Right? :D
 
Adstar said:
He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.
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So Jesus and the holy angels will watch the torture? Do they get off on suffering?
 
Cris said:
Adstar,

And what is Hades?
Click to expand...

Hades is Hell.

It is my belief that Hell/Hades is a non-permanent holding place for those destined for the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is the eternal place Hell/Hades is just a temporary, although long term holding place.

Jesus talked of two separate places for people before the final judgement in His parable of the leper Lazarus.

Luke 16
19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’

Hades seems to have a lot in common with the Lake of Fire but from scripture it is clear that they are different places. Because as lawdog correctly says people will not be cast into the Lake Of Fire until after the final judgement.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
redarmy11 said:
So Jesus and the holy angels will watch the torture? Do they get off on suffering?
Click to expand...

Are you asking a question or making a judgement as to the character of God?

If you think God is wrong then just say so.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
An essential part of Christianity is that each person has the chance to request Jesus for forgiveness and accept him as their savior. Were these souls given that free choice? However, if they knew they were dead and probably destined for hell they'd be pretty daft not to accept him, right? If that is the case then that wouldn't be fair to those who haven't died yet since they have no certainty that there is an afterlife.
Click to expand...

Would it be fair the other way?

I hear it all the time from non-believers that God is unfair to condemn those who never got the chance to accept Jesus as Messiah. and now when we say that they did get the chance we hear the call of unfair again. :rolleyes:

Poor God, dammed if He does dammed if He doesn't. LOL


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

PS : Never underestimate the ability of people to cut of their nose to spite their face. Imagine, for some who hate God it would be their last opportunity to tell Him where to go. I have read posts in here where people where fantasising about how they will tell God to go to hell when they finally meet Him at the last judgement, nothing is beyond possibility for those who's hearts are hardened by hate, Just look at the islamic suicide bombers.
 
It is truelly sad when people think it is unfair of God to send some to heaven and some to hell, but what they don't understand is that God confines himself to his own purity, justice and moral law. For him to go against or contradict his spoken word, is for him to no longer be divine.

In my opinion, those that think that they will get to judgement and curse God are truelly disillusioned because I believe they will be in such awe of his glory that they will fall at his feet, but at that moment it will be too late because they lived by sight and not faith.
 
Adstar,

So the term "hell" is somewhat ambiguous. If Hades is hell and is destroyed in the lake then what people usually think of hell is really the lake of fire, right?

Several years ago we had a long debate here over these issues and discovered that Hades, hell, and the lake of fire were not as clear-cut as your references suggest. I need to find those threads. I believe what we found was that the eternal torture is contardicted elsewhere and that the lake of fire is the destruction of the bad souls - i.e. infinite extinction and that there is no eternal torture as is commonly perceived.

Hell or hades was then shown to simply mean the grave - the first death - the physical death of the body, where everybody goes initially before judegement. And that somewhat fits with your passages.
 
Quigly said:
It is truelly sad when people think it is unfair of God to send some to heaven and some to hell, but what they don't understand is that God confines himself to his own purity, justice and moral law.
Click to expand...


How is it fair for God to send anyone to hell? God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good. God knows everything, and whether you like it or not, that means that you don't have free will. If you come to a fork in the road where you can go right or left, and God knows you will go left, that means you have no possiblity of going right, and no free will. Seeing as this is true, and as God is all-good, then it would be wrong of God (not all-good) to send anyone to Hell for actions that they had no control over.

So if you people believe that your God is really who the church says he is, then no one could have gone to Hell, pre or post Jesus.
 
The Church teaches the tradition that Jesus entered into the underworld and rescued those who had no benefit of redemption before the crucifixion.
Click to expand...
Then what's the deal with all those missionaries?
 
DJ Erock said:
How is it fair for God to send anyone to hell? God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good. God knows everything, and whether you like it or not, that means that you don't have free will. If you come to a fork in the road where you can go right or left, and God knows you will go left, that means you have no possiblity of going right, and no free will. Seeing as this is true, and as God is all-good, then it would be wrong of God (not all-good) to send anyone to Hell for actions that they had no control over.

So if you people believe that your God is really who the church says he is, then no one could have gone to Hell, pre or post Jesus.
Click to expand...

God is perfect which means his motives are always 100% pure. God is good, which means every action or inaction he takes is of 100% pure motive.
Because God knows what you are going to do, doesn't eliminate your responsibility to do what you must to be saved. Because he knows what you are going to do, doesn't eliminate your will. The reason free will doesn't exist is because every fiber of humanity and this earth is ingrained with a sinful nature. Sin drives man to make decisions. To follow Christ is to die to this sin nature and be reborn into a christlike nature or a nature that has both 100% perfection and 100% pure motive. By being reborn, you don't remove yourself from mistakes as there is always a battle between doing what you are engrained to do and putting that aside for Christ's nature, but you remove yourself from the bondage of those mistakes, because now you have one that will restore your position before God. A mediator that is Jesus.

To blame God is a cop out and removes your personal responsibility for your actions or inactions. If you want to blame him, tell him its all his fault and you can't trust him, but at least tell him you will be open enough for him to reveal truth of himself to you.
 
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