Ban male circumcision. Why or why not?
- Thread starter tony2
- Start date
and thus all perspectives would qualify as "new" including both for and against circumcision.
I never spotted anyone mentioning why circumcision had become widspread in the U.S..
I'm unaware of any evidence for a significant increase in any disease or health problems in other western countries where circumcision isn't routine. I think it is dumb, and ought to be left to adults to decide for themselves.
Being from the rural south, my father wasn't, and had no problems that I was aware of.
http://www.cirp.org/pages/whycirc.html
I'm unaware of any evidence for a significant increase in any disease or health problems in other western countries where circumcision isn't routine. I think it is dumb, and ought to be left to adults to decide for themselves.
Being from the rural south, my father wasn't, and had no problems that I was aware of.
Bells
Staff member
There's no evidence of an increase in chances of catching STD's or other health problems if the penis is uncircumcised. Why parents would want to do that to their baby son is beyond me. It's amazing. The child is born healthy with all fingers and toes and the parents coo at how perfect he is. And then after a week, it's snip snip because the penis is not perfect as it is. This puts the child at greater risk of infection after the surgery is complete. Some parents do it because of some warped sense of religion or faith and others do it because of some warped sense of fashion or because they think it looks cleaner. Lovely. Mutilate the child's penis because of God or better looks.
And for those who decide to be circumcised as adults, the risks are greater. My best friend did it when he decided to convert to Judaism (which he left after a year) when he was on some spiritual self-discovery thing in his early twenties. The surgery went badly and he was in hospital for a week and in agony for months afterwards. It's now apparently made ejaculation very difficult and if he doesn't ejaculate during sex, he's in absolute agony and has once even passed out because of it. Luckily for him, his wife is very understanding.
And for those who decide to be circumcised as adults, the risks are greater. My best friend did it when he decided to convert to Judaism (which he left after a year) when he was on some spiritual self-discovery thing in his early twenties. The surgery went badly and he was in hospital for a week and in agony for months afterwards. It's now apparently made ejaculation very difficult and if he doesn't ejaculate during sex, he's in absolute agony and has once even passed out because of it. Luckily for him, his wife is very understanding.
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Perhaps you could be more specific? That's an incredibly vague statement that seems on the surface to assert against articles posted in this topic discussing the foreskin as related to HIV and HPV transmission.
That you were aware of. That's the key part of the phrase. Or, rather, that he was aware of. People aren't always aware of problems because the problems don't inconvenience them directly.
For instance, an article I posted earlier indicates that analysis of seven studies showed:
• Penile HPV infection in 19.6% of the uncircumcised men
• Penile HPV infection in 5.5% of circumcised men
• Circumcised men were observed to be less likely than uncircumcised to have HPV infection by an odds ratio of 0.37
Penile HPV is associated with a fourfold increase in cervical HPV risk; cervical HPV infection is associated with a nearly eightyfold increase in cervical cancer risk.
HPV is among the chief STD's in the United States, with estimates running at one million new cases a year and 20 - 40% of sexually-active women.
Your father would not necessarily know if he was carrying HPV. He would not necessarily know if he passed it on. Not all possible problems are necessarily known at the time by the people experiencing them.
Neither HIV nor HPV are going away. Which means that deadly sex isn't going away. Circumcision properly performed can actually save lives.
_____________________
• Hodges, David. "Circumcision may reduce risk of HPV infection". Medical Post, v.37 i.16; April 24, 2001. See http://www.medicalpost.com/mpcontent/article.jsp?content=/content/EXTRACT/RAWART/3716/04B.html
See Also -
• Cichocki, Mark. "What You Need to Know About HPV". About.com. See http://aids.about.com/cs/conditions/a/hpv.htm
• Skelly, Andrew. "HIV linked to uncircumcized males". Medical Post, v.38 i.6; July 3, 2002. See http://www.medicalpost.com/mpcontent/article.jsp?content=/content/EXTRACT/RAWART/3826/14A.html
tiassa said:
Is this really an issue since the risk of HIV infection is much more reduced by using a condom than by circumcising. In fact, do you really want to leave the impression that cricumcision could protect you from HIV. There are many stupid people in the world and they will grasp at any straw not to use a condom.
Therefore, isn't it unethical to spread the idea that circumcision is good for preventing dangerous infections?
From your own HIV link:
And from another site with the Spanish HPV study:
Even if the link between increased probability of HPV infection is proven beyond doubt, it still has to be balanced against the decrease in pleasure that men experience from the very thing about being circumcised that helps protect you; The glans of a circumcised penis has a thicker, cornified epithelium, providing more resistance to abrasions and less sensation.
My father was very open, and if he had any problems with being uncircumcised, he probably would have mentioned it. It was a non issue, and my brother and I went under the knife because that was just what you did back in the 60's.
And from another site with the Spanish HPV study:
http://www.aafp.org/afp/20020701/tips/8.html
Even if the link between increased probability of HPV infection is proven beyond doubt, it still has to be balanced against the decrease in pleasure that men experience from the very thing about being circumcised that helps protect you; The glans of a circumcised penis has a thicker, cornified epithelium, providing more resistance to abrasions and less sensation.
My father was very open, and if he had any problems with being uncircumcised, he probably would have mentioned it. It was a non issue, and my brother and I went under the knife because that was just what you did back in the 60's.
Depends on whether I want to exaggerate as much as you do or not. Without exaggeration, knowledge is a good thing. Exaggerated horribly, well ... we arrive at questions like the one quoted above.
As long as we treat related issues as independent, we remain in such a simplified mode. However, given that we know that ethnic-minority American men in homosexual relationships do not practice safe sex as regularly as white gays. We also know minorities do not practice monogamous homosexual relationships as regularly as whites. Furthermore, we face a continual social threat of complicity in HIV awareness among heterosexuals. I know one heterosexual man and no heterosexual women who insist on condom use. And that guy works in the sex industry.
Yes there are many stupid people in the world. But to restrict our considerations to such a statement and the one that follows it--
--we are merely pretending in lieu of actually having and using knowledge.
Additionally, you leave out HPV from your considerations entirely. Melodramatically called a "silent killer" in the 1980s after it was connected to cervical cancer, HPV is a pervasive STD. So go ahead and get married and have unprotected, monogamous sex with your wife; you can still give her HPV. Masturbate a woman during heavy petting and forget to wash your hands before you piss, and you may have just applied the damn virus to the flesh of your penis. Whether it takes ... that's a statistical issue, given how many people are carrying the virus and how many possibilities one has of coming in contact with it.
Most scientists are aware that the situation is not so simple as you portray it, Spurious.
Agreed, but just because we can't rule out religion and hygiene does not mean we should rule out the correlation.
It will be. The note you point out is called "responsible science". In the meantime, the more preferable route is not feasible, and given what we know about the structure of the foreskin, we would be irresponsible to ignore the present result. Especially for such foolish criteria:
You're kidding, right? I mean, that sounds strikingly familiar, and Spurious was just raising the issues of condoms. Sensation versus health. It's a new paradigm afoot. Before they used to say, "At least you have your health." Now they say, "At least he died with a smile on his face." Your position tends toward the latter.
Unlike condom hysteria, it cannot be said that an uncircumcised penis is disrespectful to one's partner, but to claim your pleasure is worth more than her health ... well, now that is disrespectful.
And what of the problems he wouldn't know he had? Such as passing a virus that sometimes doesn't manifest itself symptomatically to another person?
Incidentally, despite the age of the link you provided, I've never heard the headline that "Circumcision prevents cervical cancer!" Sadly, I was under the mistaken impression that doctors weren't nearly as prone to such histrionics.
It is basically really simple:
Sex without condom. HUGE risk for HIV, no matter if you are circumcised or not.
Sex with condom, much less risk for HIV, no matter if you are circumcised or not.
You can argue what you want, but that doesn't change this situation.
Sex without condom. HUGE risk for HIV, no matter if you are circumcised or not.
Sex with condom, much less risk for HIV, no matter if you are circumcised or not.
You can argue what you want, but that doesn't change this situation.
Ends up that over history, there have been hundreds of medical 'reasons' given for justifying them. The ones given here already are just the most recent. I'm sure in 50 years there will be completely different and new 'reasons'.
Here is a list of 'reasons' overall:
Circumstitions
(''Reasons'' Given for Circumcising a Male)
"If it seems too good to be true, it probably is"
The variety of reasons given for male genital cutting (and the irrationality of most of them) is amazing. Put them all together and your mind will boggle. When I started collecting them, I thought I'd find about 30 "reasons", and that seemed strange enough. But between 1998 and 2001, this list grew to 300, and the differences between many of them became too subtle to be interesting. You may see the complete list, but here are the major categories, in approximate order of frequency, with some choice examples.
1. Conformity
Because "a boy should look like his father"
Because all the nice families are having it done.
Because it is a cultural norm.
2. Medical
To prevent or cure alcoholism, arthritic hips, asthma, balanitis, blindness, boils, cervical cancer, chicken pox, epididymitis, epilepsy, gallstones, gout, headaches, hernia, HIV, hydrocephaly, hydrocoele, hypertension, insanity, kidney disease, kleptomaina, leprosy, moral depravity, paraphimosis, penile cancer, plague, phimosis, posthitis, prostate cancer, rectal prolapse, rheumatism, schistosoma, spinal curvature, stomach infection, tuberculosis, urinary tract infections and/or yeast infections.
3. Religious
To draw down the Divine light, bring down the soul of holiness into the body...
Because it is a good Christian thing to do.
Because Mohammed was "born circumcised".
Because a baboon the Egyptians considered sacred is "born circumcised".
4. Sexual
Because his mother and her friends prefer circumcised men for sexual pleasure.
Because it enhances sensitivity.
Because it reduces sensitivity.
5. Aesthetic
Because it makes it uniformly pink.
Because it makes the penis look more modern
6. Irrational
Because the foreskin will fall off if a baby is put into a hot tub of water for a bath.
Because it only seems natural.
To prevent "psychological trauma due to castration anxiety".
7. Instructive
To teach him that the world is a painful place.
8. Submission
Because his master ordered it.
9. Pre-emptive
Because it will have to be done sooner or later.
10. To benefit someone else
To provide collagen for cosmetic surgery on lips and cheeks.
11. Cleanliness
To stop him dribbling when he pees.
12. Control
"Because [my sister's] doctor said having his glans exposed would help calm him down a little".
13. Revenge
Because his mother had an episiotomy. ("I was cut, why shouldn't he be?")
14. Financial
Because a military surgeon "wanted to get back into practice because she could get $100 apiece for them in private practice."
15. Initiation
To prepare him to receive tribal secrets.
To separate him from his mother.
16. Non-conformity
Because he belongs to the upper class.
Because "I kind of think it is 'American'... in the early years of this great nation, we took pride in BEING DIFFERENT thon ether nations".
17. Concealment
To pass as a Muslim.
18. Punitive
To spite his absent/divorced father.
To get even for having been raped as a teenager.
19. Symbolic
To make the penis look like that of a kangaroo.
20. Status
Because he will be prevented from speaking in public if his (Samoan) father is intact.
"If you ain't circumcised, you ain't shit."
Because he's an orphan.
21. Reproductive
To prevent infertility.
22. Reward
To use his foreskin for a dowry.
In exchange for not having to change his diapers.
23. Convenience
Because "we just do it. It's better this way." (to a man being operated on for kidney stones)
Because he is under anaesthetic already for another operation.
Because his mother was having another baby, so they could go in together.
24. Iatrogenic
To treat paraphimosis caused by improper insertion of a catheter.
25. Ignorance
To make his penis bigger.
"...to protect the boy or man from the psychological trauma of an abnormally small penis"
Because it's a law.
Because his mother had never seen an intact penis and thought it was deformed.
26. Mistake
Because of an "accident on medical records..." According to the "paperwork guidelines, I was not supposed to be Circ."
27. Pity
Because the father "just didn't want to argue with her after she'd been through all that suffering."
28. Prudery
Because his mother thought that cleaning him was too much like masturbating him.
29. Sympathetic Magic
To give him the appearance of permanent arousal.
To remove the female element from him.
30. Vague
"She's not even clear on [it]. She just wants it, you know."
" thought [he] might as well be circ'd."
--------------------------------------------------
A list of over 300 can be found at: http://www.circumstitions.com/Stitions&refs.html#medical
Here is a list of 'reasons' overall:
Circumstitions
(''Reasons'' Given for Circumcising a Male)
"If it seems too good to be true, it probably is"
The variety of reasons given for male genital cutting (and the irrationality of most of them) is amazing. Put them all together and your mind will boggle. When I started collecting them, I thought I'd find about 30 "reasons", and that seemed strange enough. But between 1998 and 2001, this list grew to 300, and the differences between many of them became too subtle to be interesting. You may see the complete list, but here are the major categories, in approximate order of frequency, with some choice examples.
1. Conformity
Because "a boy should look like his father"
Because all the nice families are having it done.
Because it is a cultural norm.
2. Medical
To prevent or cure alcoholism, arthritic hips, asthma, balanitis, blindness, boils, cervical cancer, chicken pox, epididymitis, epilepsy, gallstones, gout, headaches, hernia, HIV, hydrocephaly, hydrocoele, hypertension, insanity, kidney disease, kleptomaina, leprosy, moral depravity, paraphimosis, penile cancer, plague, phimosis, posthitis, prostate cancer, rectal prolapse, rheumatism, schistosoma, spinal curvature, stomach infection, tuberculosis, urinary tract infections and/or yeast infections.
3. Religious
To draw down the Divine light, bring down the soul of holiness into the body...
Because it is a good Christian thing to do.
Because Mohammed was "born circumcised".
Because a baboon the Egyptians considered sacred is "born circumcised".
4. Sexual
Because his mother and her friends prefer circumcised men for sexual pleasure.
Because it enhances sensitivity.
Because it reduces sensitivity.
5. Aesthetic
Because it makes it uniformly pink.
Because it makes the penis look more modern
6. Irrational
Because the foreskin will fall off if a baby is put into a hot tub of water for a bath.
Because it only seems natural.
To prevent "psychological trauma due to castration anxiety".
7. Instructive
To teach him that the world is a painful place.
8. Submission
Because his master ordered it.
9. Pre-emptive
Because it will have to be done sooner or later.
10. To benefit someone else
To provide collagen for cosmetic surgery on lips and cheeks.
11. Cleanliness
To stop him dribbling when he pees.
12. Control
"Because [my sister's] doctor said having his glans exposed would help calm him down a little".
13. Revenge
Because his mother had an episiotomy. ("I was cut, why shouldn't he be?")
14. Financial
Because a military surgeon "wanted to get back into practice because she could get $100 apiece for them in private practice."
15. Initiation
To prepare him to receive tribal secrets.
To separate him from his mother.
16. Non-conformity
Because he belongs to the upper class.
Because "I kind of think it is 'American'... in the early years of this great nation, we took pride in BEING DIFFERENT thon ether nations".
17. Concealment
To pass as a Muslim.
18. Punitive
To spite his absent/divorced father.
To get even for having been raped as a teenager.
19. Symbolic
To make the penis look like that of a kangaroo.
20. Status
Because he will be prevented from speaking in public if his (Samoan) father is intact.
"If you ain't circumcised, you ain't shit."
Because he's an orphan.
21. Reproductive
To prevent infertility.
22. Reward
To use his foreskin for a dowry.
In exchange for not having to change his diapers.
23. Convenience
Because "we just do it. It's better this way." (to a man being operated on for kidney stones)
Because he is under anaesthetic already for another operation.
Because his mother was having another baby, so they could go in together.
24. Iatrogenic
To treat paraphimosis caused by improper insertion of a catheter.
25. Ignorance
To make his penis bigger.
"...to protect the boy or man from the psychological trauma of an abnormally small penis"
Because it's a law.
Because his mother had never seen an intact penis and thought it was deformed.
26. Mistake
Because of an "accident on medical records..." According to the "paperwork guidelines, I was not supposed to be Circ."
27. Pity
Because the father "just didn't want to argue with her after she'd been through all that suffering."
28. Prudery
Because his mother thought that cleaning him was too much like masturbating him.
29. Sympathetic Magic
To give him the appearance of permanent arousal.
To remove the female element from him.
30. Vague
"She's not even clear on [it]. She just wants it, you know."
" thought [he] might as well be circ'd."
--------------------------------------------------
A list of over 300 can be found at: http://www.circumstitions.com/Stitions&refs.html#medical
None of the reason you have posted is valid or scientific. Lets put it this way: if a mythology is later back up scientifically then thus it must still be a myth? Anything that has been believed in for erroneous purposes must then be wrong? That would mean anti-circumcision is erroneous right off the bat.
Uh - no. That wasn't the point at all. The point is that its origins were in mythology/religion and now a long string of ''scientific'' reasons are constantly brought out to justify it - and these ''reasons'' change and mutate over time - as they are all just attempts to justify what is really based in myth/religion.
Hey, WCF, just because it was done to you doesn't mean you can't be open minded about the possibility of it not being a necessary procedure.
Hey, WCF, just because it was done to you doesn't mean you can't be open minded about the possibility of it not being a necessary procedure.
I can understand that it sometimes is done for medical purposes, e.g. the foreskin cannot be retracted to clean the glans, etc.
But some...no , make that most of the reasons given on that website are ridiculous. Perhaps some people should be informed about the foreskin or reasons for circumcision.
It looks like some just do it because it is "trendy"... great, why not split the tongue of the kid, just to make it look "cool"?
I mean:
-Because the foreskin would fall off by itself if it wasn't cut off by the doctor, just like the umbilical cord.
-Because they have a device to do it, so it must be okay
-Because his mother had never seen an intact penis and thought it was deformed
That is nearly unbearable ignorance, it makes me want to bang my head against a wall...
And a baby should not be circumcised for such things:
-To get even for having been raped as a teenager
-Because "I don't want to piss off my mother-in-law."
-Because it's part of his father's identity
A message to all you circumcision freaks out there, take a knive to my dick and I´ll take one to your throat.
But some...no , make that most of the reasons given on that website are ridiculous. Perhaps some people should be informed about the foreskin or reasons for circumcision.
It looks like some just do it because it is "trendy"... great, why not split the tongue of the kid, just to make it look "cool"?
I mean:
-Because the foreskin would fall off by itself if it wasn't cut off by the doctor, just like the umbilical cord.
-Because they have a device to do it, so it must be okay
-Because his mother had never seen an intact penis and thought it was deformed
That is nearly unbearable ignorance, it makes me want to bang my head against a wall...
And a baby should not be circumcised for such things:
-To get even for having been raped as a teenager
-Because "I don't want to piss off my mother-in-law."
-Because it's part of his father's identity
A message to all you circumcision freaks out there, take a knive to my dick and I´ll take one to your throat.
The point is that just because it was based on myth doesn't mean it was wrong, and if or if not it was done to me has no matter on it (circumstantial ad hominem). Again I can twist the statement around: just because it was not done to you doesn't mean you can't be open minded about the possibility of it being a necessary or beneficial procedure.
Perhaps you would like to spend years in a desert with little water to clean your self and with and the constant sensation of sand rubbing between you foreskin and head of your penis, then ask your self: “Well it was based on some mythological and erroneous reasons, thus it must be wrong, despite the validity of any other argument brought up for it.”
Dreamwalker,
Those are not the reasons any of us here have cited for circumcision, but if you do meet anyone that believes those reasons, please punch them in the face.
Perhaps you would like to spend years in a desert with little water to clean your self and with and the constant sensation of sand rubbing between you foreskin and head of your penis, then ask your self: “Well it was based on some mythological and erroneous reasons, thus it must be wrong, despite the validity of any other argument brought up for it.”
Dreamwalker,
Those are not the reasons any of us here have cited for circumcision, but if you do meet anyone that believes those reasons, please punch them in the face.
Well, it would be pretty tough to do to me!
We no longer live in the desert, and therefore its equally erroneous to use outdated past arguments for justificaiton.
Incidentally, I don't have incredibly strong feelings about it - people can mutilate themselves and their children if they want I suppose (within reason). But you seem to feel VERY strongly about it. Why?
We no longer live in the desert, and therefore its equally erroneous to use outdated past arguments for justificaiton.
Incidentally, I don't have incredibly strong feelings about it - people can mutilate themselves and their children if they want I suppose (within reason). But you seem to feel VERY strongly about it. Why?
Millions of people do live in a desert, and we also gave reasons outside of a desert on why circumcisions would be beneficial.
My feelings are not strong on this either, I do not agree with non-consenting circumcisions (that of infants, females, non-valid medical, ect). I studied the argument and judge it beneficial but not usually necessary. I’m simply playing to the opposite of your argument, as I thought you were strongly opposed to it, even opposed to the reason I stated here and in many posts passed.
by the way is tattooing and body-piercing mutilation to you?
My feelings are not strong on this either, I do not agree with non-consenting circumcisions (that of infants, females, non-valid medical, ect). I studied the argument and judge it beneficial but not usually necessary. I’m simply playing to the opposite of your argument, as I thought you were strongly opposed to it, even opposed to the reason I stated here and in many posts passed.
by the way is tattooing and body-piercing mutilation to you?
Well it usually does hurt infants more, as they can't ask for sedatives.