Balancing The Two
- Thread starter b0urgeoisie
- Start date
§outh§tar said:
Well, there are still some naysayers... as far as I know, doubt about Christ's divinity was first popularised by Arius in the 4th Century. His belief (that Christ was created by God the Father) is called the Arian Heresy. It was formally countered by the Nicene Creed (begun in 325 and completed in 381), which put in clear terms the beliefs of the Church fathers as guided by Scripture (and, I dare say, a good deal of politics).
In modern times, Jehovah's Witnesses hold a similar belief. I am led to understand that at this moment there are new rumblings about this oldest of controversies among modernists in the Catholic Church. If that's the case, I suspect that there a more than a few Protestant Ministers who share some personal opinions with Arius.
But, to me that's all dross. The Gospel recounting of Jesus' claims of divinity are clear, which is sufficient for this discussion.
§outh§tar said:
If he made such a claim, then please cite it.
Jan Ardena.
Pete said:
Why are you diverting from the point? I have given my points, so please try and contradict them if you are so sure.
Jan Ardena.
Jan, you make me laugh.
Go away, read the gospels in parallel with a good commentary. You don't have to agree with the commentary, of course - but if you disagree with it it is intellectually satisfying to examine why, and produce a logically sound argument.
Next, read the Creed of Athanasius for an examination of the nature of the God of the Bible.
When you have a little intellectual backing for your arguments, then I'll continue this discussion. Otherwise, I'll leave you to your worldview.
Go away, read the gospels in parallel with a good commentary. You don't have to agree with the commentary, of course - but if you disagree with it it is intellectually satisfying to examine why, and produce a logically sound argument.
Next, read the Creed of Athanasius for an examination of the nature of the God of the Bible.
When you have a little intellectual backing for your arguments, then I'll continue this discussion. Otherwise, I'll leave you to your worldview.
There were gnostics and roman pagans long before that.
I'm not sure where you are getting those dates.. I think maybe you're confusing the first Nicene council with the second. I get them confused but I'm pretty certain the one most people talk about is the one on 325AD.
Unlikely. To me, Arius' views involve a lot gnostic thought along with understanding of greek philosophy that most Christians, fortunately, don't have.
Matthew 16
15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,[2] the Son of the living God."
17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter,[3] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[4] will not overcome it.[5] 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[6] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[7] loosed in heaven." 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.
John 11
25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
27"Yes, Lord," she told him, "I believe that you are the Christ,[2] the Son of God, who was to come into the world."
John 20
27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31But these are written that you may[1] believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
John 5
6So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. 17Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
There are many more, but I suppose these will do Jan Ardena. The evidence is simply overwhelming.
15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,[2] the Son of the living God."
17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter,[3] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[4] will not overcome it.[5] 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[6] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[7] loosed in heaven." 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.
John 11
25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
27"Yes, Lord," she told him, "I believe that you are the Christ,[2] the Son of God, who was to come into the world."
John 20
27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31But these are written that you may[1] believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
John 5
6So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. 17Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
There are many more, but I suppose these will do Jan Ardena. The evidence is simply overwhelming.
NOW THAT'S!! ENTERTAINMENT!
Watching theists go at it, qouting and the bible, and all. Man if you all haven't come to the conclussion that the bible is (unreliable) do to contradictions, discrepancies, and plain old mythological bs.. you all's dialog proves the fallacy of the bible.
my parents?
Godless.
Watching theists go at it, qouting and the bible, and all. Man if you all haven't come to the conclussion that the bible is (unreliable) do to contradictions, discrepancies, and plain old mythological bs.. you all's dialog proves the fallacy of the bible.
my parents?
Godless.
§outh§tar,
"Peter answered, "You are son of the living God," to which Jesus agreed.
The Son is always distinct from the Father, as far as relationships go. How can Jesus be the Father, and the Son at the same time?
"Christ" means "annointed one," "annointed" described in websters thus; to choose by or as if by divine election; also : to designate as if by a ritual. That is not to say Jesus was not a divine personality, but his divinity his awarded to him, by the Divine, for the purpose of reflecting the Divine through his personality through performing works (service). His personality was of suitable quality.
John 10:25. ......ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all;
Jesus is clearly not refering to himself, but to a separate person.
How is it that you do not see that?
He goes on to say;
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
This explain rather nicely the relationship between Jesus and God.
They are simultaneosly one and different. If God is number one, then everything is related to Him, as every number is related to 1. 2 is one twice, 3 is 1, 3 times, 1/4 is a part of 1 and so on. These variations of 1 are seperate but connected and neseccary. They cannot not exist, but their existence is entirely due to number 1. Jesus is at the point where he knows this, he understands that he is the same as his Father, but he is different, hence the term "i and my father."
John 11
25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
27"Yes, Lord," she told him, "I believe that you are the Christ,[2] the Son of God, who was to come into the world."
I don't see where Jesus proclaims to be God, only that he is son of God.
Thomas now understands ther term "I and my Father are one."
God is His Father, and he is equal to God in that he is a part of God's own self (the word made flesh), but God is greater.
1 is the greatest number, everything is in relation to 1.
When analysed in the context of the Supreme Power of God, there is no evidence IMHO to suggest that Jesus is, or ever proclaimed himself to be God.
Jan Ardena.
"Peter answered, "You are son of the living God," to which Jesus agreed.
The Son is always distinct from the Father, as far as relationships go. How can Jesus be the Father, and the Son at the same time?
"Christ" means "annointed one," "annointed" described in websters thus; to choose by or as if by divine election; also : to designate as if by a ritual. That is not to say Jesus was not a divine personality, but his divinity his awarded to him, by the Divine, for the purpose of reflecting the Divine through his personality through performing works (service). His personality was of suitable quality.
John 10:25. ......ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all;
Jesus is clearly not refering to himself, but to a separate person.
How is it that you do not see that?
He goes on to say;
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
This explain rather nicely the relationship between Jesus and God.
They are simultaneosly one and different. If God is number one, then everything is related to Him, as every number is related to 1. 2 is one twice, 3 is 1, 3 times, 1/4 is a part of 1 and so on. These variations of 1 are seperate but connected and neseccary. They cannot not exist, but their existence is entirely due to number 1. Jesus is at the point where he knows this, he understands that he is the same as his Father, but he is different, hence the term "i and my father."
John 11
25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
27"Yes, Lord," she told him, "I believe that you are the Christ,[2] the Son of God, who was to come into the world."
I don't see where Jesus proclaims to be God, only that he is son of God.
Thomas now understands ther term "I and my Father are one."
God is His Father, and he is equal to God in that he is a part of God's own self (the word made flesh), but God is greater.
1 is the greatest number, everything is in relation to 1.
When analysed in the context of the Supreme Power of God, there is no evidence IMHO to suggest that Jesus is, or ever proclaimed himself to be God.
Jan Ardena.
Pete,
That's good, you sound like you need cheering up.
Stop being such a snob.
One does not need "commentary" to understand that Jesus is neither son of man or God Himself, nor that he ever proclaimed these positions. One only need read the Bible objectively.
What do you mean by a "logically sound argument?"
Nature; 1 a : the inherent character or basic constitution of a person or thing :
That article does not examing the nature of God, it explains the relationship of the Trinity.
Intellect; 1 a : the power of knowing as distinguished from the power to feel and to will : the capacity for knowledge.
The backing to my arguments with you come from the Bible itself, as everything is referenced therein, they are not based on my own interprtation.
Jan Ardena.
That's good, you sound like you need cheering up.
Stop being such a snob.
One does not need "commentary" to understand that Jesus is neither son of man or God Himself, nor that he ever proclaimed these positions. One only need read the Bible objectively.
What do you mean by a "logically sound argument?"
Nature; 1 a : the inherent character or basic constitution of a person or thing :
That article does not examing the nature of God, it explains the relationship of the Trinity.
Intellect; 1 a : the power of knowing as distinguished from the power to feel and to will : the capacity for knowledge.
The backing to my arguments with you come from the Bible itself, as everything is referenced therein, they are not based on my own interprtation.
Jan Ardena.
John 10 verses 25-30
I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and My Father are one
I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and My Father are one
Or
"He who has seen Me has seen the Father"
"He who has seen Me has seen the Father"
Godless said:
Funnily enough, Godless, I'm no theist! (But then, I guess it wasn't entertaining enough for you to actually read, was it
)Man if you all haven't come to the conclussion that the bible is (unreliable) do to contradictions, discrepancies, and plain old mythological bs.. you all's dialog proves the fallacy of the bible.
Of course - no one ever argues about anything unless it fallacious, right :bugeye:
§our§tar: "Jan Ardena, Are you really saying Jesus NEVER claimed to be Deity?" This is a fundamental truth of Christianity and even the most determined critics accept this.
*************
M*W: Why do you continue to lie saying "even the most determined critics accept this?" Name the critics of Christianity who believe Jesus CLAIMED to be a Deity."
*************
M*W: Why do you continue to lie saying "even the most determined critics accept this?" Name the critics of Christianity who believe Jesus CLAIMED to be a Deity."
Jan Ardena: "§outh§tar, "Peter answered, "You are son of the living God," to which Jesus agreed. The Son is always distinct from the Father, as far as relationships go. How can Jesus be the Father, and the Son at the same time? "Christ" means "annointed one," "annointed" described in websters thus; to choose by or as if by divine election; also : to designate as if by a ritual. That is not to say Jesus was not a divine personality, but his divinity his awarded to him, by the Divine, for the purpose of reflecting the Divine through his personality through performing works (service). His personality was of suitable quality.
John 10:25. ......ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all;
Jesus is clearly not refering to himself, but to a separate person. How is it that you do not see that?
He goes on to say; 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
This explain rather nicely the relationship between Jesus and God. They are simultaneosly one and different. If God is number one, then everything is related to Him, as every number is related to 1. 2 is one twice, 3 is 1, 3 times, 1/4 is a part of 1 and so on. These variations of 1 are seperate but connected and neseccary. They cannot not exist, but their existence is entirely due to number 1. Jesus is at the point where he knows this, he understands that he is the same as his Father, but he is different, hence the term "i and my father."
John 11
25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
27"Yes, Lord," she told him, "I believe that you are the Christ,[2] the Son of God, who was to come into the world."
I don't see where Jesus proclaims to be God, only that he is son of God. Thomas now understands ther term "I and my Father are one."
God is His Father, and he is equal to God in that he is a part of God's own self (the word made flesh), but God is greater.
1 is the greatest number, everything is in relation to 1.
When analysed in the context of the Supreme Power of God, there is no evidence IMHO to suggest that Jesus is, or ever proclaimed himself to be God."
*************
M*W: I agree. These statements attributed to Jesus were not spoken by Jesus firsthand to the writers of these claims, so in truth, anything alleged to be quoted by Jesus should not be taken as credible as they were written decades and centuries after Jesus was no longer alive.
Secondly, Jesus was a spiritually enlightened man, and when he was supposed to have said, "I and the Father are one," can be interpreted to mean "humanity is god." We are all one with our creator; we are co-creators.
Thirdly, Jesus would not have ever claimed to be divine during his lifetime. His divinity wasn't established until centuries AFTER his death!
People read the bible and take it literally. Unfortunately, nothing in the bible was written during Jesus' time. Taking the bible literally simply means that the reader has false assumptions as to the interpretations. Of course, after 20 centuries, much has been lost in the translations; therefore, NOTHING in the bible is true.
John 10:25. ......ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all;
Jesus is clearly not refering to himself, but to a separate person. How is it that you do not see that?
He goes on to say; 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
This explain rather nicely the relationship between Jesus and God. They are simultaneosly one and different. If God is number one, then everything is related to Him, as every number is related to 1. 2 is one twice, 3 is 1, 3 times, 1/4 is a part of 1 and so on. These variations of 1 are seperate but connected and neseccary. They cannot not exist, but their existence is entirely due to number 1. Jesus is at the point where he knows this, he understands that he is the same as his Father, but he is different, hence the term "i and my father."
John 11
25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
27"Yes, Lord," she told him, "I believe that you are the Christ,[2] the Son of God, who was to come into the world."
I don't see where Jesus proclaims to be God, only that he is son of God. Thomas now understands ther term "I and my Father are one."
God is His Father, and he is equal to God in that he is a part of God's own self (the word made flesh), but God is greater.
1 is the greatest number, everything is in relation to 1.
When analysed in the context of the Supreme Power of God, there is no evidence IMHO to suggest that Jesus is, or ever proclaimed himself to be God."
*************
M*W: I agree. These statements attributed to Jesus were not spoken by Jesus firsthand to the writers of these claims, so in truth, anything alleged to be quoted by Jesus should not be taken as credible as they were written decades and centuries after Jesus was no longer alive.
Secondly, Jesus was a spiritually enlightened man, and when he was supposed to have said, "I and the Father are one," can be interpreted to mean "humanity is god." We are all one with our creator; we are co-creators.
Thirdly, Jesus would not have ever claimed to be divine during his lifetime. His divinity wasn't established until centuries AFTER his death!
People read the bible and take it literally. Unfortunately, nothing in the bible was written during Jesus' time. Taking the bible literally simply means that the reader has false assumptions as to the interpretations. Of course, after 20 centuries, much has been lost in the translations; therefore, NOTHING in the bible is true.
Jesus claimed to be the god of Israel. He was not his father. But, he existed before earth life. He existed in spirit only. That is why, even though no person could look on the face of the Father, Moses could "speak to God face to face." The I AM was the God of Israel.
You must understand that Israel is not a place. Israelites were tribal people with 13 tribes. They had one God. The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob was their god. Jacob was also Israel. The God of Israel sent Moses to free the people in Egypt.
The tribes had been in slavery for many generations. When he sent Moses he told him to tell the people, that I AM had sent him. The people would know it was the God of Israel.
Later, when Jesus arrived on the scene he told them he was the I AM. Some time after his death belief in a "pre-mortal" life was cast aside. That is when questions like - how could he be the I AM if he wasn't around until his birth? Soon, ideas about a universal god came about. A god that could appear in different forms. For example, he could manifest himself as the Father, the Son, or the Spirit. The only other solution was - he wasn't God.
He is not the Father. He is the God of Israel though.
And yes that is a supernatural belief. But, that doesn't mean I should not believe it. I just means I have to respect that not all people are going to believe the same as I do.
You must understand that Israel is not a place. Israelites were tribal people with 13 tribes. They had one God. The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob was their god. Jacob was also Israel. The God of Israel sent Moses to free the people in Egypt.
The tribes had been in slavery for many generations. When he sent Moses he told him to tell the people, that I AM had sent him. The people would know it was the God of Israel.
Later, when Jesus arrived on the scene he told them he was the I AM. Some time after his death belief in a "pre-mortal" life was cast aside. That is when questions like - how could he be the I AM if he wasn't around until his birth? Soon, ideas about a universal god came about. A god that could appear in different forms. For example, he could manifest himself as the Father, the Son, or the Spirit. The only other solution was - he wasn't God.
He is not the Father. He is the God of Israel though.
And yes that is a supernatural belief. But, that doesn't mean I should not believe it. I just means I have to respect that not all people are going to believe the same as I do.