Baby Boxes

[milkweed]

Baby boxes are a revival of the medieval "foundling wheels," where unwanted infants were left in revolving church doors.

The box is actually a warm incubator that can be opened from an outside wall of a hospital where a desperate parent can anonymously leave an unwanted infant.

At a meeting last month, the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child said baby boxes should be banned and is pushing that agenda to the European Parliament.

"They are a bad message for society," said Maria Herczog, a Hungarian child psychologist on the U.N. committee. "These boxes violate children's rights and also the rights of parents to get help from the state to raise their families," she said.

http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/health/180730861.html

I disagree with the UN Committee. A parent who makes this kind of decision has already put the welfare of the child first by using an unconditional safe place. State help is always conditional.

 

[Asguard]

http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/health/180730861.html

I disagree with the UN Committee. A parent who makes this kind of decision has already put the welfare of the child first by using an unconditional safe place. State help is always conditional.

Firstly how do these work with a childs RIGHT to try to find its parents once it is older? not to mention grandparents, siblings etc

Secondly how does the state actually know the cirumstances of there use? It could be that one parent wants to keep the child and comes home to find it gone, how does the parent and the state handle that?

How about a cirumstance where there child has been abducted and one of these are used to hide the child

Also they are compleatly right about a states responsibility to help parents raise a child as listed in the convention on the rights of the child. How many of these are used because mum and dad have post natal depression and in a fit of despration dump the child when if they got proper help they would be fantastic and loving parents. Some form of respite care would be so much better.

 

[Bells]

One has to wonder whether the UN exist within the realms of reality or merely dealing with "ideals".

German pastor Gabriele Stangl says she will never forget the harrowing confession she heard in 1999. A woman said she had been brutally raped, got pregnant and had a baby. Then she killed it and buried it in the woods near Berlin.

Ms Stangl wanted to do something to help women in such desperate situations. So the following year, she convinced Berlin's Waldfriede Hospital to create the city's first so-called "baby box." The box is actually a warm incubator that can be opened from an outside wall of a hospital where a desperate parent can anonymously leave an unwanted infant.


[Source]

The boxes and safe haven boxes as they are called in the US were brought back into use to try to prevent parent(s) from killing their unwanted children in acts or fits of desperation. Such as teenage girls who hide the pregnancy because they are not allowed to have access to abortions for example and don't want anyone to know and so, they then give birth in secret and then kill the child. These safe haven boxes were brought back in the US to help such girls and to prevent the murder of children.

In Europe, they were brought back for similar reasons and to ensure that desperate parents have an option or an out.

The first modern baby hatch in Germany was installed in the Altona district of Hamburg on 2000-04-11 after a series of cases in 1999 where children were abandoned and found dead from exposure. It consisted of a warm bed in which the child could be placed from outside the building. After a short delay to allow the person who left the child to leave anonymously, a silent alarm was set off which alerted staff. By 2010, 38 babies had been left in the "Findelbaby" baby hatch in Hamburg, 14 of whom were later reclaimed by their mothers

---------------------------------------------------------

Today, baby hatches are intended to be used by mothers who are unable to cope with looking after their own child and do not wish to divulge their identity. In some countries, such as Germany,[5] it is not legal for mothers to give birth anonymously in a hospital, and the baby hatch is the only way they can safely and secretly leave their child to be cared for by others. In India[6] and Pakistan,[1] the purpose of baby hatches is mainly to provide an alternative to female infanticide, which occurs due to socio-economic factors including the high cost of dowries.

[Source]

In many of these countries, abortion may also be limited or these women may not have open or easy access to abortion or health care.

A child's rights would be more violated if it were killed by its parents.

 

[Asguard]

Bells, how often does that happen here? We dont have anything like that on purpose, the goverment wants to find the parents to ensure that there welfare is protected too, that whatever made them dump the child (and i have herd of a few cases where children have been dumped at hospital) is treated as its generally either a lack of resorces or PND and both of these are the goverments responsibility to provide assistance

 

[Bells]

Bells, how often does that happen here? We dont have anything like that on purpose, the goverment wants to find the parents to ensure that there welfare is protected too, that whatever made them dump the child (and i have herd of a few cases where children have been dumped at hospital) is treated as its generally either a lack of resorces or PND and both of these are the goverments responsibility to provide assistance

How many times have we seen cases of children being killed by their parents and don't you ever wonder if they had this option, whether they would have utilised it instead?

Here they will do home visits and more often than not, the child is left in the care of the parents and sometimes, the child is killed.

Countries with the safe haven laws or baby boxes allow parents in these types of situations to allow that child to be adopted out and be cared for in a safe environment in the meantime.

In Germany for example, the baby boxes were brought back after several babies and young children were abandoned to the elements and killed as a result or simply murdered by desperate parents. Personally speaking, if it saves one child, it's worthwhile. While helping the parents should also be paramount, ensuring the safety of those children and keeping them out of danger and away from those parents should also take precedence in my honest opinion.

I have been involved in cases where child protection services would demand that certain parents could care for their children with supervision and have another relative move in with them or make them promise to be supervised while in the care of their children and their children end up either dead or even more abused. And to me that is inexcusable. A parent who feels that way towards their child should have a safe place to leave their child and walk away if need be, even if it is for a period of time, than to be forced to keep the child in their custody and be told 'everything will be okay'.

Reality dictates that the State will not ensure the parent's well being. We both know that. In an ideal situation, then yes, opponents to the baby boxes would have a case. However we do not live in ideal times and reality has shown us that these baby boxes could help reduce filicides. That is why I think the move by the UN is not basing itself on reality but are instead looking at what the ideal should be. Until there is proper protection in place, then I personally think the baby boxes should remain.

 

[Asguard]

I have NEVER herd of a case where a parent was forced to take back a child, you may have but personally i never have. The real difference from my understanding between what happens here and the US is a) we have a system where mental illness is reportable, as is having poor infrastructure and this is reportable from BEFORE birth so that the state can get the resources into place if needed and b) we don't allow anonymity. My cousin is suffering PND currently, she was so desprate for the baby and then once it arived unfortantly she started suffering depression. This is so bad she actually commented that she wishes she could put it back and that she wishes he was dead. Was she left alone until the baby died? HELL NO, both she and the baby were re-admitted to the hospital for a week the first time and again at least once more. They provided TREATMENT.

There was another case a while ago of a baby dumped at an SA hospital, the police were trying to find the parents to ensure there saftey, there is no way that Familes SA would have forced them to take the child back but it's far better that they track down the parents than some of the suicides i have herd of from parents who have used these dump sites in other countries. PND doesnt just go away because you get rid of the child, it becomes another stresser which feeds the depression.

BTW your link discussing the poverty issues in India and Packastan show that in those cases the issue is the failure of goverment to follow the charter, specifically the portions on the rights to assistance from goverment if you are poor.

 

[Bells]

I have NEVER herd of a case where a parent was forced to take back a child, you may have but personally i never have. The real difference from my understanding between what happens here and the US is a) we have a system where mental illness is reportable, as is having poor infrastructure and this is reportable from BEFORE birth so that the state can get the resources into place if needed and b) we don't allow anonymity. My cousin is suffering PND currently, she was so desprate for the baby and then once it arived unfortantly she started suffering depression. This is so bad she actually commented that she wishes she could put it back and that she wishes he was dead. Was she left alone until the baby died? HELL NO, both she and the baby were re-admitted to the hospital for a week the first time and again at least once more. They provided TREATMENT.

There was another case a while ago of a baby dumped at an SA hospital, the police were trying to find the parents to ensure there saftey, there is no way that Familes SA would have forced them to take the child back but it's far better that they track down the parents than some of the suicides i have herd of from parents who have used these dump sites in other countries. PND doesnt just go away because you get rid of the child, it becomes another stresser which feeds the depression.

BTW your link discussing the poverty issues in India and Packastan show that in those cases the issue is the failure of goverment to follow the charter, specifically the portions on the rights to assistance from goverment if you are poor.

I have been involved in cases where the child was placed back with the parents, against the parents wishes and "supervised" with the grandparent moving in or an aunt or other friend of relative. In some instances, one parent in the relationship would feel that the child was in danger with the other parent or step parent in the household but the child would be made to remain anyway in their care. The system is buckling.

I am sorry for your cousin. PND is a horrible thing to have to go through and she is lucky she got that level of care. However not all mothers or father's are that fortunate or lucky. Not all hospitals have the beds able to keep a new mother in for that length of time for treatment. Not all hospitals provide that level of care.

In some cases, these boxes can save the child's life and I think that is paramount.

The UN is demanding that these boxes be removed and that the Government step in and help the parents. That won't happen to the extent that it needs to happen. We both know that. Not all parents should be parents Asguard and young girls, for example, who feel that they cannot cope, even with Government help, should have a safe place where they can ensure their child remains safe like with these safe boxes. These boxes aren't just for PND cases. But they do serve a purpose and they do save lives.

 

[Asguard]

I have been trying to check the last assertion and I am having trouble even finding the statistics. If they do save lives there should be a significant difference in the homocide rate of infants in countries like Australia compared to counties like the US but i cant find the numbers anywhere. I DID find this for the US:

Trends

Between 1970 and 2000, the official infant homicide rate rose dramatically – from 4.3 to 9.2 infant deaths per 100,000 children under age one. Between 2000 and 2002, the rate declined to 7.6 per 100,000, and has fluctuated between 7.4 and 8.4 per 100,000 since then. The rate was 7.4 per 100,000 in 2009. (Figure 1)

http://www.childtrendsdatabank.org/?q=node/79

But i cant find anything for here and one thing about that document concerns me:

Definition

Infant homicides are classified as deaths purposefully inflicted by other persons on children less than one year old. Data on infant homicide are developed by the National Center for Health Statistics, drawn from death certificates recorded by local medical examiners or coroners and reported to the National Vital Statistics System. These records code infant deaths using the injury classification framework developed by the International Classification of Diseases (ICD) codes, 9th and 10th editions.
For more information about ICD codes see: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/icd10fct.pdf

A small number of stillbirths may be incorrectly classified as infant homicides. However, medical examiners usually will attribute a death to infanticide only when they can rule out other causes (i.e., autopsy evidence indicates that respiration had occurred, no evidence indicates death from natural causes, and circumstantial evidence is consistent with homicide).9

so how many of those cases of "homocide" are actually SIDS cases



Anyway I'm not suggesting that young teenage parents shouldn't be able to adopt out children they don't want, I'm not saying that this shouldn't be as easy as possible. What I'm saying is that it should be reversable, a parent 20 years latter or a child when they turn 16 or 18 or possibly even younger should be able to seek out and find the parents who gave them up, they should be able to find there siblings, there cousins, there grandparents, where they come from. This is not just an ethical possition, a friend is in a situation like this currently. His dad was an alcholic when he was born and either he left or his mum left but either way he never knew his father. He recently got in contact with his half sister who he never knew and went and met his father who had been successfully treated in the years since he was born, had another family and he had sibblings and he was telling me about it, how happy he was to find his dad and to have family, how wonderful his brother and sisters were, about his nieces etc. This system prevents this happerning.

Then there is the flip side. Mum and\or Dad dump the child in one of these boxes and then go and kill themself because of the pressure and grief. If stopping it being anonomous prevents this happerning because they get help either with the existing mental illness or even just the stress caused by giving the child up then that is a good thing and will save lives too.

 

[youreyes]

http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/health/180730861.html

I disagree with the UN Committee. A parent who makes this kind of decision has already put the welfare of the child first by using an unconditional safe place. State help is always conditional.

Yeah I totally agree that baby boxes save lives and UN committee should stop killing babies.

 

[Hoatzin]

Maybe what is really needed is 'parent boxes' wherein irate children can shitcan their old folks.

 

[youreyes]

Maybe what is really needed is 'parent boxes' wherein irate children can shitcan their old folks.

while the sentiment is mutual it is logically unsound, parents are indeed needed for healthy happy children

 

[Bells]

I have been trying to check the last assertion and I am having trouble even finding the statistics. If they do save lives there should be a significant difference in the homocide rate of infants in countries like Australia compared to counties like the US but i cant find the numbers anywhere. I DID find this for the US:



But i cant find anything for here and one thing about that document concerns me:



so how many of those cases of "homocide" are actually SIDS cases



Anyway I'm not suggesting that young teenage parents shouldn't be able to adopt out children they don't want, I'm not saying that this shouldn't be as easy as possible. What I'm saying is that it should be reversable, a parent 20 years latter or a child when they turn 16 or 18 or possibly even younger should be able to seek out and find the parents who gave them up, they should be able to find there siblings, there cousins, there grandparents, where they come from. This is not just an ethical possition, a friend is in a situation like this currently. His dad was an alcholic when he was born and either he left or his mum left but either way he never knew his father. He recently got in contact with his half sister who he never knew and went and met his father who had been successfully treated in the years since he was born, had another family and he had sibblings and he was telling me about it, how happy he was to find his dad and to have family, how wonderful his brother and sisters were, about his nieces etc. This system prevents this happerning.

Then there is the flip side. Mum and\or Dad dump the child in one of these boxes and then go and kill themself because of the pressure and grief. If stopping it being anonomous prevents this happerning because they get help either with the existing mental illness or even just the stress caused by giving the child up then that is a good thing and will save lives too.

And forcing the parents to identify themselves could lead to the parent(s) killing the child. In situations where there is fear of reprisal from the community or family, or other situations which can arise where young women and men feel they have nowhere to turn, the baby box allowed them to ensure their child's safety. Forcing them to identify themselves and go through the red tape rigmarole could lead to parents just disposing of their child. I am not saying that the baby box system is perfect and it has no cons. It has cons. But does it outweigh the fact that it could save the life of a child? That is a question they need to ask themselves. In Germany, it was re-implemented after a spate of child killings by desperate mothers. Unless they have a system in place to provide help for those parents before they remove the baby box.. at the end of the day, not every woman will seek help while pregnant as she should. And these baby boxes help those women in particular. Saying that they need to get help is all well and good. Whether they do or not is another thing altogether.

As I said, I personally think removing them is a bad idea. If it saves one than it's a good thing. Because you just know not all Governments will provide the required help and care for these parents. And then what? That is the risk.

Maybe what is really needed is 'parent boxes' wherein irate children can shitcan their old folks.

I believe that is called a retirement home.

 

[Asguard]

while the sentiment is mutual it is logically unsound, parents are indeed needed for healthy happy children who will not turn into same sex couples, maniacs, or just plain ole loosers later.

I dont even know what to say about this crap

 

[billvon]

parents are indeed needed for healthy happy children who will not turn into same sex couples

Wow. So a kid without parents can turn into a same sex couple? That's awesome! No worries about finding a mate. One day you wake up and bam! you're a couple.

 

[Asguard]

Bells if your going to use these how do you deal with there missuse? For instance one party wants to leave the other and doesnt want to pay child support or be burdened with the child so they drop them off in one of these boxes without telling the other one. What do you do about this?

And just BTW I can see the UNs point, apart from the sections of the rights of the child convention which compells the goverment this does breach two other sections.

Article 7
You have the right to a name, and this should be
officially recognized by the government. You have
the right to a nationality (to belong to a country).

Article 8
You have the right to an identity – an official
record of who you are. No one should take this
away from you.

http://www.unicef.org/southafrica/SAF_resources_crcchildfriendly.pdf

the only right that is concidered to be more important and therefore listed higher is artical 6, the right to life.

Every country except the US, South Sudan and Rowanda are have signed and ratified this convention and all of them oviously concidered these to be important or else they wouldn't be there

 

[youreyes]

Wow. So a kid without parents can turn into a same sex couple? That's awesome! No worries about finding a mate. One day you wake up and bam! you're a couple.

Children who grow up without parents are more prone to mistakes in life, like drugs, sex activity at early stage, suicide...etc.

http://www.photius.com/feminocracy/facts_on_fatherless_kids.html

Parentless children: less graduation rates, 1/4 chance of homelessness, 60% unemployed within a year, only 4 out of 10 become parents, less than 1/5 are self supporting, 1/4 guys go to jail, by 19 half of girls become pregnant

I am saying children without parents made wrong sex choices.

 

[Bells]

Bells if your going to use these how do you deal with there missuse? For instance one party wants to leave the other and doesnt want to pay child support or be burdened with the child so they drop them off in one of these boxes without telling the other one. What do you do about this?

That is called filing a missing person's report and having that parent charged. It needs to be said as well that these children do not disappear forever once they are left in these safe boxes. And in some countries, the parents have quite a bit of time to come back and get their child back if their circumstances change.

And just BTW I can see the UNs point, apart from the sections of the rights of the child convention which compells the goverment this does breach two other sections.

I do not disagree with you there. However in a situation where the child's life is at risk and the parents feel that desperate and they are able to leave their child in a safe environment without fear of reprisals or being identified by the Government, then I would say the child's right to not be killed far outweighs their right to identity papers.

These safe haven laws and baby boxes came into existence because mothers and father's in some instances, were killing their babies out of whatever desperate situation they found themselves in and who felt they had no other option. I think taking away these boxes and telling Governments that they can just help these parents will defeat the purpose that these boxes were serving. A young teenage girl who hid her pregnancy and gave birth quietly somewhere by herself is not going to want to be identified or forced by the Government to take care of her child when she went to such lengths to deny her pregnancy and hide it. She would be the one most at risk of killing her newborn if no other options are available for her.

The AMA has been trying to get the Australian Government to enact similar safe haven laws here.. And there is a reason for the desire for such options to be available.

the only right that is concidered to be more important and therefore listed higher is artical 6, the right to life.

Every country except the US, South Sudan and Rowanda are have signed and ratified this convention and all of them oviously concidered these to be important or else they wouldn't be there

Do you actually think that the Government will be effective in monitoring and "helping" these parent(s) keep and care for their child for the rights of the child?

I think safe haven laws and baby boxes should serve as an alternative for the women and girls who desperately need them.

 

[Asguard]

Bells I have to wonder at what point do we stop and say "enough is enough". The hypothetical girl has had 6 months to have an abortion in Australia, the government will pay for that no questions asked. Once the child is born there are certain responsibilities that come with that, they can chose to adopt the child out of they don't want it but sorry if that's to much effort for them and killing becomes the easier option well we have a place in society for people like that, it's called JAIL.

Is the child protection system perfect? No but neither is this, there is still infants murdered in the US

I wonder how far are you willing to go before saying "sorry it's time for you to act like a grown up and not a sociopath, you had the child and you can take some basic steps to deal with that child"
6 months? 12? 18? 2 years? 15 years?

There were cases of teenagers being dumped in US hospitals after all

If its about ease of adoption there are ways to make that easier without this

And as for missing persons reports how effective is a missing persons report going to be with a system that is designed to strip the child of its identity? You would potentially have to DNA test god knows how many kids to find the one which was yours and what if it turns out that your not the biological father, it's still your child but how is the government going to give it back to you?

 

[Bells]

Bells I have to wonder at what point do we stop and say "enough is enough". The hypothetical girl has had 6 months to have an abortion in Australia, the government will pay for that no questions asked. Once the child is born there are certain responsibilities that come with that, they can chose to adopt the child out of they don't want it but sorry if that's to much effort for them and killing becomes the easier option well we have a place in society for people like that, it's called JAIL.

Is the child protection system perfect? No but neither is this, there is still infants murdered in the US

I wonder how far are you willing to go before saying "sorry it's time for you to act like a grown up and not a sociopath, you had the child and you can take some basic steps to deal with that child"
6 months? 12? 18? 2 years? 15 years?

There were cases of teenagers being dumped in US hospitals after all

If its about ease of adoption there are ways to make that easier without this

And as for missing persons reports how effective is a missing persons report going to be with a system that is designed to strip the child of its identity? You would potentially have to DNA test god knows how many kids to find the one which was yours and what if it turns out that your not the biological father, it's still your child but how is the government going to give it back to you?

I think a situation that leaves all options open which can lead to a child not being killed is the best way to go.

Those hypothetical girls do not always have access to abortions in Europe or elsewhere? Those hypothetical girls are the ones most at risk of killing their newborns. How or why do you think the safe haven laws and the baby boxes came into existence in Europe and the US? Because there was a need for them and they have potentially saved dozens of lives.

Unless there is a system in place that will ensure the protection of those babies, and there is not, then I think the baby boxes should remain. The UN is speaking of ideal situations. The Government is not going to help these parents or these women. Parents and children do fall through the welfare net and the baby boxes are designed for those individuals. I don't know about you, but I would prefer a baby be abandoned in a baby box than in a garbage bin or public toilet or bushland.

 

[milkweed]

Once the child is born there are certain responsibilities that come with that, they can chose to adopt the child out of they don't want it but sorry if that's to much effort for them and killing becomes the easier option well we have a place in society for people like that, it's called JAIL.

This [baby box] is just one more option to prevent abuse/neglect/mistreatment and jail.

And as for missing persons reports how effective is a missing persons report going to be with a system that is designed to strip the child of its identity? You would potentially have to DNA test god knows how many kids to find the one which was yours and what if it turns out that your not the biological father, it's still your child but how is the government going to give it back to you?

Each of these hospitals has procedures which are followed documenting everything. These kids are not just put up for sale at a yard sale, they are taken through an official adoption service after a certain amount of time.

Interesting article (from 2008) on related issues:
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-09-25-Left-kids_N.htm

I dont know if there is a much worse home situation than being forced to live with people who dont want you.