Average Animal Size vs Time

I'm not countering anything other than to say the common factors throughout all of biology that would help things be larger is the subject. I don't agree that more lift would equal more size and I certainly do not see that in anyone else's discussion. Might have smaller wings because biology will not necessarily grow things bigger than needed. That would be wasted energy.

The why, might just be the simplicity that bigger is better in general survival math. If you're bigger you fit in less mouths, if you're bigger and must rival with other males; you win the game of passing on your genes. If you're bigger you can also select from more prey as well as fight off competition easier. Perhaps those are several of the why's of why organisms try to be big.
 
Scott Myers said:
I'm not countering anything other than to say the common factors throughout all of biology that would help things be larger is the subject. I don't agree that more lift would equal more size and I certainly do not see that in anyone else's discussion. Might have smaller wings because biology will not necessarily grow things bigger than needed. That would be wasted energy.

The why, might just be the simplicity that bigger is better in general survival math. If you're bigger you fit in less mouths, if you're bigger and must rival with other males; you win the game of passing on your genes. If you're bigger you can also select from more prey as well as fight off competition easier. Perhaps those are several of the why's of why organisms try to be big.
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And if you can be larger and still fly, you would be at double the advantage.
 
Certainly seems advantageous, unless you have gills. Then that would tend to suck most of the time. Lol
 
Scott Myers said:
Biologists are saying it is far more likely that it is the limits of the way they (insects) get their oxygen internally distributed, the mass (or weight) of their exoskeletons limiting their size etc
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Insects breathe directly through their skins.
Instead of lungs, insects breathe with a network of tiny tubes called tracheae. Air enters the tubes through a row of holes along an insect's abdomen. The air then diffuses down the blind-ended tracheae. Since the biggest bugs have the longest tracheae, they should need the most oxygen to be able to breathe.
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how_insects_breathe.jpg


https://askabiologist.asu.edu/how-insects-breathe
 

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DaveC426913 said:
And if you can be larger and still fly, you would be at double the advantage.
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Insects also conquered flight fifty million years before there were birds.

Relatively speaking insects are the toughest, strongest, most variegated complex species on earth. They can do it all and have since the beginning of multicapable organisms.
This old but excellent documentary on insects is well worth watching . The Hellstrom Chronicle;
 
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DaveC426913 said:
Variegated? :wink:
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Lol, it was a poetic liberty based on the insects' evolutionary adoption of a wide range of plant colorations and patterns for protective camouflage.
https://www.google.com/search?q=variegated insects&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi3iI-OiavfAhUKh-AKHUfODGwQ7Al6BAgCEA0&biw=1280&bih=648

For all its fundamental simplicity, the insect is a marvel of evolutionary adaption to its environment. It is simply astounding in variety of imitative shapes and colorations.

But then its been at it longer than all multi-capable surface organisms
The most recent understanding of the evolution of insects is based on studies of the following branches of science: molecular biology, insect morphology, paleontology, insect taxonomy, evolution, embryology, bioinformatics and scientific computing.It is estimated that the class of insects originated on Earth about 480 million years ago, in the Ordovician, at about the same time terrestrial plants appeared.[1] Insects evolved from a group of crustaceans
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Third definition is exactly his use, but even the second definition can be used lightly to mean 'variety'.. Many colors of insects, plus all their other differences represented as colors...

var·i·e·gat·ed
/ˈver(ē)əˌɡādəd/
adjective
  1. exhibiting different colors, especially as irregular patches or streaks.
    "variegated yellow bricks"
    • BOTANY
      (of a plant or foliage) having or consisting of leaves that are edged or patterned in a second color, especially white as well as green.
      synonyms:multicolored, multicolor, many-colored, many-hued, polychromatic, varicolored, colorful, prismatic, rainbow, kaleidoscopic;
      mottled, striated, marbled, streaked, speckled, flecked, dappled;
      informalsplotchy
      "variegated leaves"
    • marked by variety.
      "his variegated and amusing observations"
 
DaveC426913 said:
No it wasn't. :rolleyes: You meant 'varied'.
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No, I know the common use of the term "variegated" or "dappled".......;)

I thought about it when I posted, but decided on the more poetic albeit more obscure definition, keeping in mind that Hellstrom mentioned that many insects evolved to look like twigs or leaves, perfect camouflage...:biggrin:

The cuttlefish does it in the oceans, and is an extremely succesful species, in spite of it's vulnerable body. It can variegate at will.....:confused:
 
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SOOOO.. As far as my calcs on the pressures I was off a bit and used Kg per SCF, instead of Lbs for N2, but not a huge deal. The best I could muster was (2) atmospheres with adding the O2 in with the correct numbers. In the end I think I found a fellow with the proper basic world view even though he sticks to the Dinos and flying lizards but not insects. That matters little as his ideas will not discount the insect fruit fly study that w already sited. Productively though it seems for the 'buoyancy' effect I was looking to see in action; in order for this to work it has to be about 200 Atmospheres. This is no practical problem since we can simply pile on more atmosphere and make it thicker till the numbers work. This also makes the entire climate more properly temperate as we observe without equatorial regions boiling off. Physiologically it does not seem to be a problem. Geologically it seems plausible as atmospheres go. The thickness and buoyancy on Venus for example is about 91 atmospheres. Where it all went is a question that also has some papers and answers from reputable folks, but first off; if anyone would like to study further and consider this this guys link is full of words. He covers too much remedial science, but it is complete for sure. In Chapter four he gets down to the conclusion that primarily size is a result (or was supported by) a much denser surface Psi. Let me know if you can punch any holes in this.

https://www.dinosaurtheory.com/
 
Reading the link, seems very interesting.

Just a question came to mind.
Is it possible that dinosaurs existed when the earth was smaller and had less mass than it has today. We know the earth was impacted by Theia some 4.5 billion years ago.
270px-Artist%27s_concept_of_collision_at_HD_172555.jpg
Such an impact between Earth and a Mars-sized objectlikely formed the Moon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant-impact_hypothesis

And may have been responsible for the extinction of very heavy animals due to the added mass from Theia, which may have placed too much stress on the largest dinos and be the explanation for the evolution of extreme size of dinos during the preceding epoch when the earth was less massive and gravity was not a hinderance to growth.
 
Write4U said:
Just a question came to mind.
Is it possible that dinosaurs existed when the earth was smaller and had less mass than it has today. We know the earth was impacted by Theia some 4.5 billion years ago.
Such an impact between Earth and a Mars-sized objectlikely formed the Moon

And may have been responsible for the extinction of very heavy animals due to the added mass from Theia, which may have placed too much stress on the largest dinos and be the explanation for the evolution of extreme size of dinos during the preceding epoch when the earth was less massive and gravity was not a hinderance to growth.
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Wait what??

Your timing is off by about 4 billion years.

4.5 billion years ago, when Theia is hypothesized to have impacted Earth, there was no life here, let alone megafauna.

The Earth was barely a couple of hundred million years old. Dinosaurs were still 4 billion years in the future.

(Not to mention the fact that the collision is theorized to have turned much of the surface of the Earth molten. It was called the Hadean epoch for good reason.)
 
Slip of the mind.....:redface:

Was so intrigued by the idea of "added mass and gravity", I forgot to consider the difference between million and billion. My bad.......:oops:
 
Write4U said:
Slip of the mind.....:redface:

Was so intrigued by the idea of "added mass and gravity", I forgot to consider the difference between million and billion. My bad.......:oops:
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You might like to read a book by Robert Sawyer, called End of an Era.

Its premise for the rise and fall of dinosaurs is due to gravity as you hypothesized - though the mechanism by which gravity is altered is ... unusual.
 
Well, if you take the time to read this gentleman's work he postulates that the shrinking planet over time theory would not be sufficient, but he does cover this in depth as well. As stated; it's a rather complete holistic theory he presents.
 
Scott Myers said:
Well, if you take the time to read this gentleman's work he postulates that the shrinking planet over time theory would not be sufficient, but he does cover this in depth as well. As stated; it's a rather complete holistic theory he presents.
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If we combine him with heyuhua, will they cancel out and disappear?
 
Not about to have fun with PsuedoScience here. There's enough of that on social media that often needs addressed. lol
 
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