ATP Proton Pump

[Bishadi]

i dont know if someone has already answered this but you dont NEED a negitive charge to force something across using active transport (ie ATP). Things which follow there consentration gradiants (like H2O) dont use ATP

Sodium and patasium are activly pumped (sodium out of the cell, potasium into the cell). cloride just follows the sodium to keep the same electrocal netrality

This being said i have never herd of a hydrogen pump in the cells

Sodium, potassium yes but not hydrogen

i will assume that maybe you forgot about mitochondria and organellas

just imagine if free Na and K were actually making contact with h2o

http://www.sp.uconn.edu/~terry/images/anim/ATPmito.html

http://www.mrc-dunn.cam.ac.uk/research/atp_synthase/

 

[Bishadi]

You must think water is 'hot.'

drop a tap of K in it and ask the same question

The pH of pure water is 7 which means that there is 10^-7moles of H+ in each liter of the water you drink.

OK and what is your point?

Your 13.6eV is the energy it takes to ionize a hydrogen atom well separated from other atoms and has nothing to do with hydrogen in liquids, especially as hydrogen is normally chemically bound (often to carbon or another hydrogen as H2) but even if an atom of unbound H is present in a liquid, the energy levels would differ greatly (and dymanically during the esentially continuous collisons) from those of the isolated hydrogen atom.

The ATP rendition has nothing to do with your ideology.

what was laid was facts that must be addressed prior to the creation of the simulations and processes as chemically described.

what was shared was that the renditions as used are incorrect based on the impossible

Your comments are good example of fact that a little knowledge is dangerous thing or at least misleading.

that is exactly what is being shared.... that the one with little knowledge accept information as real and that ignorance combined with complacency, creates a wheel of stupidity; and is being taught all over the world


i.e... have you ever heard of religions?

 

[Billy T]

... OK and what is your point? ...

Only that your statement about it taking 13.6eV to make H+ is not applicable to the thread's subject and appears to reflect ignorance about fact that is ONLY for the isolated hydrogen atom (in the ground state) and has very little to do with concentration of H+ in liquids, which is by defintion what pH is all about.

In case you do not know, a mole is 6.??* x10^23 atoms (or molecules). Even in a raindrop with volume of 1 cubic mm, there are more than 60 Billion H+ ions - usually a lot more if near a city with a coal fired power plant. And that rain drop is not "hot." - You posted nonsense. Admit it and learn.
----
*I work from memory and had forgotten exact value.

 

[CharonZ]

hmm 6.022141 and then something. Guess my memory ain't what it used to be. If it ever was, that is.
Sounds like trolling to me, though. (Bishadi's post, that is).

 

[Bishadi]

Only that your statement about it taking 13.6eV to make H+ is not applicable to the thread's subject and appears to reflect ignorance about fact that is ONLY for the isolated hydrogen atom (in the ground state)

Apparently you do not comprhend a 'gound state'

and has very little to do with concentration of H+ in liquids, which is by defintion what pH is all about.

Not talking about pH but in the idea that an H+ is thought move against the gradient. Which is like putting 2 positive ends of a magnet together.

In case you do not know, a mole is 6.??* x10^23 atoms (or molecules). Even in a raindrop with volume of 1 cubic mm, there are more than 60 Billion H+ ions -

but yet in the process,

NADH and FADH2 carry a great deal of energy

to "burn" (oxidize) NADH directly (NADH + 1/2O2 + H+ -> NAD+ + H2O) yields 52.4 kcal/mol

to oxidize FADH2 = 45.9 kcal/mol

to hydrolyze ATP (ATP + H2O -> ADP + Pi) = 7.3 kcal/mol

-biological oxidation of NADH releases that energy in stepwise reactions, capturing it efficiently

In overview:

oxidation of NADH and FADH2 leads to ATP synthesis by a process of electron transport (a series of oxidation-reduction reactions) that is coupled to production of a H+ electrochemical gradient across the inner mitochondrial membrane; flow of H+ down the electrochemical gradient and through a protein drives the enzymatic synthesis of ATP

The system of mitochondrial electron transport and ATP synthesis can be thought of as three linked processes

1) A redox reaction involving the oxidation of NADH and FADH2 and the reduction of oxygen to form water

2) The use of the energy released by that oxidation to drive active transport of H+ producing a H+ electrochemical gradient

3) The use of the H+ electrochemical gradient by the ATP synthase enzyme to synthesize ATP from ADP + Pi

-all of this is accomplished by membrane-bound, multi-subunit protein complexes in the inner mitochondrial membrane

what do you learn here?

that they convey the math in the mole yet try and convey the occurence in the single unit exchange and no where share the energy at each reaction in either the math or the resulting structures.

the energy is the progressionary product not the elemental structure.

Just as who cares if a person is human (mass) if they are worthless (of conveyable good) energy.

- You posted nonsense. Admit it and learn.

it seems, just a little out of your league


the whole point is to share that the electrical frame of chemistry is ignorant

as until the community recognizes the energy upon the structure is more important than the structure itself; then life is not definable by chemistry.

 

[Vkothii]

the electrical frame of chemistry is ignorant

Computers are ignorant too, and they are most definitely in the "electrical frame".

Biochemistry has been around for a century (or two), what should we tell all those biologists who use it all the time?
What about cells, and transport phenomena across membranes against a gradient? What are they all going to do now, since clearly it doesn't work, as you say?

the energy is the progressionary product not the elemental structure.

Can you explain what this means a little more? Energy is something we see being transferred, from and to those "elemental" structures. We can measure changes in or to structure, and we can call it energy.

 

[Bishadi]

hmm 6.022141 and then something. Guess my memory ain't what it used to be. If it ever was, that is.
Sounds like trolling to me, though. (Bishadi's post, that is).

it seems to me that if something can share how a single proton H+, can be freely moving across a membranes, then maybe chemistry of the proton pump can be true....

otherwise; the basis of the argument is that the energy that conveys is resonance across the medium, for that 'potential' difference (gradient) between the 2 sides of the membrane


i.e...... if i put a pan on the stove with hot water; we all can use common sense to realize the energy conveying is 'heat' (resonant energy) across the medium.

maybe when you boys grow up, a little honesty and maybe even appreciation for how mass and energy associate will be important

 

[Asguard]

thanks for the infomation
as i said i hadnt herd of it doesnt mean i didnt nessarly belive it

the celular funtions we focus on are mainly the Na+/K+ pump, i guess because cesation of this one kills the cells first when necrosis sets in

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Wow... you actually support this foolishness.

doesn't anyone realize these forms of description could never truly occur in a living environment.

And as much as the chemical folk like to assume this is how it works, it is impossible

please do not label me as less than you otherwise i will make the fools of the lot of ya..

this is for assisting comprehension as you will find comforming to current paradigm is like following a religion...

the whole system of biological mechanics is up for a paradigm shift

….creates a wheel of stupidity; and is being taught all over the world i.e... have you ever heard of religions?

Apparently you do not comprhend a 'gound state'

it seems, …[you are].. just a little out of your league

the whole point is to share that the electrical frame of chemistry is ignorant

as until the community recognizes the energy upon the structure is more important than the structure itself; then life is not definable by chemistry.

maybe when you boys grow up, a little honesty and maybe even appreciation for how mass and energy associate will be important

Yes, yes, I think we get it by now. You know better than the world biochemical community who are indoctrinated into following an incorrect model. In fact, the world biochemical community can be compared to the ignorant and brainwashed followers of a religion or cult who blindly adhere to an absurd collection of ideas that simply do not comply with your “common sense” knowledge.

We can only wonder what it must be like to have such unrecognised insight. It must be so frustrating for you.

 

[Bishadi]

Yes, yes, I think we get it by now. You know better than the world biochemical community who are indoctrinated into following an incorrect model.

funny part is, i was a 16 yr old kid when i realized it

wrote a thesis on the human brain within 6 months (Photo Neuron Conduction) sharing that energy conveyed across the dentrites in exactly the same way. That was 1982 and because of how a biological frame was addressed in a physics constraint, it was a little too much for the time.

Well here we are 25 years latter and still having to deal with the monkeys of ignorance.

so now, i will simply go to the kids and let them drive their instructors crazy with questions, even the professors cannot answer

must be pretty sad homer to realize your kids will probably comprehend how life exists upon mass before you do

We can only wonder what it must be like to have such unrecognised insight. It must be so frustrating for you.

in a sense

i have learned that honesty and integrity has nothing to do with the business of science......

heck at MIT; with the BEC and entanglement data, they are now trying to make new adhesives but within the data; gravity represents itself, and they have no idea.........

since 82 this i has written up a half dozen papers and touched most every state in the union passing out material to the campuses all the while never signing a things

and if you look into entanglement

resonance

and the core interactive properties of casimir, vander waals etc......

all over the world changes are occurring

i just so happen to have not only gone thru the gammit, 2 and a half decades ago and have combined just about every area of science, just to make sure....

and it all works

a paradigm shift is about to change this world

it has something to do with 'light'......

 

[CharonZ]

Actually I conquered the Western hemisphere last Tuesday (was busy becoming the ruler of the Eastern hemisphere the week before). I am only astonished why no one recognizes me as their rightful ruler, though.