ATP Proton Pump

[Bishadi]

can someone share how they could have come up with a description like this?

suggesting a pump is conveying protons across a membrane; doesn't make sense.

where's the pump?

where's the negative charge to warrant the momentum?

since i am new i cannot post the link to the scenario but to google up ATP pump or even ATP synthesis, each can review the mechanism currently used to describe this process.

 

[Enmos]

What is your confusion ?
Keep in mind that the protons they are speaking of are simply Hydrogen ions (H[sup]+[/sup]).

 

[CharonZ]

Basically proton pumps are channel proteins that can actively transport H+ against a gradient by utilising ATP to conduct a conformation change that allows extrusion of the H+.
In addition there are for instance antiporters that utilize a gradient to transport ions. In prokaryotes, for instance a higher H+ concentration on the outside is used to transport Na+ into the cell (H+ gets in, powers extrusion of Na+). In animals Na+,K+ -ATPase establish the reverse gradient, so that an Na+ gets in, while a H+ gets out.

The ATP synthase of course utilizes the prior established H+ gradient in order to power ATP synthesis.

 

[Bishadi]

What is your confusion ?
Keep in mind that the protons they are speaking of are simply Hydrogen ions (H[sup]+[/sup]).

or simply put a single atom of plasma; an H atom that had 13.6eV of energy to dislodge or remove the electron..

basically plasma but in single units or as the organellas are said to have them lined up aound the membrane as if waiting in line....

funny stuff

 

[Enmos]

funny stuff

It seems you have made up your mind.

 

[Bishadi]

Basically proton pumps are channel proteins that can actively transport H+ against a gradient by utilising ATP to conduct a conformation change that allows extrusion of the H+.

Wow... you actually support this foolishness. Maybe take a peak at Gibbs free energy and note how energy conveys across a medium by resonance...

In addition there are for instance antiporters that utilize a gradient to transport ions. In prokaryotes, for instance a higher H+ concentration on the outside is used to transport Na+ into the cell (H+ gets in, powers extrusion of Na+). In animals Na+,K+ -ATPase establish the reverse gradient, so that an Na+ gets in, while a H+ gets out.

Another wow.....

seems as if yuo wrote the book. We can work on that one next

The ATP synthase of course utilizes the prior established H+ gradient in order to power ATP synthesis.

do you mean the catalyst that is supposed to spin like a top based on H+ hitting it?


again, how the heck could these ideas of H+ being used like a bowling ball have ever existed; doesn't anyone realize these forms of description could never truly occur in a living environment.

i.e..... it would mean a simple magnet would be like kryptonite to a living structure

 

[iceaura]

again, how the heck could these ideas of H+ being used like a bowling ball have ever existed; doesn't anyone realize these forms of description could never truly occur in a living environment.

And another baby physics jock finds themself over their head in biology class.

 

[CharonZ]

I do not think that he understood the physics behind it (or basic physics for that matter). As such I would not classify him as a "physics" jock.

 

[Bishadi]

Basically proton pumps are channel proteins that can actively transport H+ against a gradient by utilising ATP to conduct a conformation change that allows extrusion of the H+.
In addition there are for instance antiporters that utilize a gradient to transport ions. In prokaryotes, for instance a higher H+ concentration on the outside is used to transport Na+ into the cell (H+ gets in, powers extrusion of Na+). In animals Na+,K+ -ATPase establish the reverse gradient, so that an Na+ gets in, while a H+ gets out.

The ATP synthase of course utilizes the prior established H+ gradient in order to power ATP synthesis.

people.... H+ is simply a single atom in a plasma state which takes 13.6eV to remove that electron from the atom. Basically for that H+ to exist you talking about a 'hot' unit of mass.

And as much as the chemical folk like to assume this is how it works, it is impossible and to any who recognize the implications would also know that a magnet can alter their direct/trajectory with simply a presence.

life is not an electrical circuit

that is what chemistry exhibits and why physics has not been combined with chemistry except when sharing how energy convey across a medium while using Gibbs 'free energy', in which then the so called entropy of a system can account for the usage of the environment

i.e.... that spinning

In eubacteria, chloroplasts and mitochondria, the synthesis of ATP is carried out by a highly complex molecular machine known as ATP synthase. Our aim is to understand how this machine works. We are concentrating mainly on the enzyme from mitochondria which has many features in common with the bacterial and chloroplast enzymes. It sits in the inner membranes of the organelle, where it uses the transmembrane proton motive force (pmf) generated by the oxidation of nutrients as a source of energy for making ATP. The pmf across the inner membrane of the organelle is coupled to the chemical synthesis of ATP from ADP and phosphate by a rotary mechanism.

is caused by the resonant energy..... not by H+ ions hitting the structure to cause it to spin....

please do not label me as less than you otherwise i will make the fools of the lot of ya..

this is for assisting comprehension as you will find comforming to current paradigm is like following a religion...

so either evolve or don't but don't doubt unless you have at least a little clue

 

[Enmos]

H[sub]3[/sub]O[sup]+[/sup].
Acid isn't hot is it ?

 

[Bishadi]

H[sub]3[/sub]O[sup]+[/sup].
Acid isn't hot is it ?

was it acid that did it? C[sub]20[/sub]H[sub]25[/sub]N[sub]3O[/sub]

point is chemistry is not the best for biology as without observing the resonance of the structure, then the life of the mass has no purpose

or simply; a dead person is simply mass, with life, the energy upon the mass can be understood

the whole system of biological mechanics is up for a paradigm shift

 

[Enmos]

Can please explain this "resonant energy" ?

 

[Bishadi]

Can please explain this "resonant energy" ?

maybe read a bit from some other folk

Thermodynamic analyses of pirenzepine binding to membrane-bound and solubilized muscarinic receptors from rat forebrain and heart
L Mei, JX Wang, WR Roeske and HI Yamamura

Department of Pharmacology, University of Arizona Health Sciences Center, Tucson.

The thermodynamic properties of pirenzepine (PZ) binding to membrane- bound and digitonin-solubilized muscarinic receptors (mAChR) from the rat forebrain and heart were evaluated. Apparent dissociation constants (Kd) of PZ were measured from saturation studies using [3H]PZ for forebrain membrane-bound mAChR and from inhibition studies of (-)- [3H]quinuclidinyl benzilate binding using unlabeled PZ, at five different temperatures from 4 degrees C to 37 degrees C. The Kd values of PZ binding to both membrane-bound and solubilized mAChR decreased with decreasing temperature whereas the maximum receptor density was unchanged. The heterogeneity of membrane-bound mAChR characterized by PZ binding to mAChR from both tissues disappeared upon digitonin- solubilization of the mAChR. The magnitude of changes of the Kd values with temperature was greater in the solubilized mAChR, suggesting that some constituents in the membrane constrained the affinity changes. The Gibbs free energy of PZ binding to membrane-bound and solubilized mAChR were both negative. The Gibbs free energy for membrane-bound receptors decreased (more negative) whereas those for solubilized receptors increased (less negative) with increasing temperature. The change in entropy was the apparent major driving force for PZ binding to membrane- bound receptors with the change in enthalpy also being favorable. The change in enthalpy was the apparent major driving force for PZ binding to solubilized receptors at all temperatures with the change in entropy being unfavorable above 17 degrees C in the rat forebrain mAChR and above 10 degrees C in the heart mAChR. Our results suggest an important role for the biomembrane microenvironment and possible topographical differences in the binding sites which may contribute to the mechanism of muscarinic subtypes

did you notice the temperature having an effect to the state of the attraction (resonant) but make no difference to the structure?

as for understanding basic resonance, think of a set of guitar strings.. if one is out of tune the note will not resonate with pure long living tone; correct the tuning and the note carries beautifully

ie.... the phospholipid bilayers of living cells, the are not held in place by peptide bonds but by the resonance shared between the structures...

that's a nobel in itself if you like

 

[Vkothii]

Um, just thought I'd chuck this at it:

Resonance has been known about for centuries, right?
With the senses of smell and taste, biochemists have known for some time that it's tied to the vibrational modes that certain molecules have, and how these interact with the neural receptors - it's partly the shape, and partly the way that shape changes as the "fit" is made - different moieties will have different shapes and resonances.

The phospholipid bilayer is a resonant structure - so is benzene.
Resonance and $$p-\pi$$ bonding have been a part of Biochemistry since at least the '80s (I know this, because I was at Waikato during the '80s, studying that subject among others).

 

[Bishadi]

Roger D. Kornberg
The Nobel Prize in Chemistry 2006

My adult scientific career began with graduate study in
chemical physics with Harden McConnell at Stanford. I had
the idea of elucidating the mechanism of ion transport across
biological membranes by nuclear resonance. I thought ion
transport must involve rotation of the transport protein in the
membrane. Struggling to prove this wrong idea, it occurred
to me to study the rotation in the membrane of a lipid
molecule, about 1,000 molecular weight, rather than a
protein fifty times larger. This led to my discoveries, by
nuclear and paramagnetic resonance methods, of
phospholipid flip-flop, an exceedingly slow process, and
lateral diffusion, exceedingly fast (Kornberg and McConnell,
1971a ; Kornberg and McConnell, 1971b).

do you know why the mechanics behind this phenomenon are not published?

do you understand why he did not get a Nobel for the lipid bilayers?

because the current math does not address the energy upon mass as associated to its environment.

so even as you can share relevance to 'resonance' in biology this is the missing color to the artwork

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

again, how the heck could these ideas of H+ being used like a bowling ball have ever existed; doesn't anyone realize these forms of description could never truly occur in a living environment.

i.e..... it would mean a simple magnet would be like kryptonite to a living structure

 

[Asguard]

can someone share how they could have come up with a description like this?

suggesting a pump is conveying protons across a membrane; doesn't make sense.

where's the pump?

where's the negative charge to warrant the momentum?

since i am new i cannot post the link to the scenario but to google up ATP pump or even ATP synthesis, each can review the mechanism currently used to describe this process.

i dont know if someone has already answered this but you dont NEED a negitive charge to force something across using active transport (ie ATP). Things which follow there consentration gradiants (like H2O) dont use ATP

Sodium and patasium are activly pumped (sodium out of the cell, potasium into the cell). cloride just follows the sodium to keep the same electrocal netrality

This being said i have never herd of a hydrogen pump in the cells

Sodium, potassium yes but not hydrogen

 

[Billy T]

people.... Basically for that H+ to exist you talking about a 'hot' unit of mass. ...

You must think water is 'hot.'

The pH of pure water is 7 which means that there is 10^-7moles of H+ in each liter of the water you drink.

Your 13.6eV is the energy it takes to ionize a hydrogen atom well separated from other atoms and has nothing to do with hydrogen in liquids, especially as hydrogen is normally chemically bound (often to carbon or another hydrogen as H2) but even if an atom of unbound H is present in a liquid, the energy levels would differ greatly (and dymanically during the esentially continuous collisons) from those of the isolated hydrogen atom.

Your comments are good example of fact that a little knowledge is dangerous thing or at least misleading.

 

[Vkothii]

The old: "I can't understand this, there must be something wrong with it" ply.

But checkmate anyway, heh .

 

[Orbit]

Sodium, potassium yes but not hydrogen

H+ is transported. It is transported out of cells as a waste product. ATP hydrogen pumps are integral proteins on the phospholipid bilayer. The H+ binds to the protein, and ATP also binds to the protein, where the high energy tri bond breaks, to supply energy to the "Pump". The pump inverts and the H+ is carried out of the cell. the ATP becomes ADP (andenine diphosphate), and regains the 3rd phosphate later on. ATP is made in the matix of mitochondria during the Krebs cycle.