Love & logic & stealing bread from the mouths of decadence
Xev
Now, the pursuit of pleasure is logical enough, correct?
Why is it logical? When applied to the full range of pleasures, the idea of pursuing pleasure
can be quite
illogical.
So this constitutes a reason to believe.
It can. But why do I take heat when I talk about
greed being a motivation? Christians are upset when I point out that faith has traditionally been a greedy appeal for salvation--the pursuit of something believed to be better at the expense of common sense and, occasionally, human dignity. I seem to have pissed off some atheists when I wondered about the trend I noticed in my own experience of objectivity being subject to greed. If greed is a natural condition, then people should realize that judgment is removed. One cannot necessarily help the natural condition. Some people aspire to transcend the natural condition, but the most common methods tend to make the purpose of this--e.g. better living--utterly moot. Having recently been accused of being greedy for saying that the individual exists for the benefit of the collective (e.g. species), I'm quite pleased to see this revelation occurring to you.
Now we have equal reasons for a certain type of person to believe as for that certain person to dis-believe, correct?
So belief is logical, for a certain type of person, no? But not for all people.
I'm with you at this point. Quite frankly, though, such a point makes the recent mocking, belittling conduct by some of our atheist posters even more disgusting. The thing is that in the practical mode, it simply comes down to
Whatever gets you through. We see what happens when people do not get through: drug addiction, crime, murder.
Just as some people pursue the rather irrational emotion of love, some pursue the rather irrational belief of God. This gives them pleasure, and thus is a logical choice.
I'll go with it. But love may have an electrochemical or biological origin. God is a psychological condition, and religion generally a psychosis.
At this point, I must digress for a moment and look to a comment by
Tyler:
Love is perfectly logical. It's an emotion which aids humans.
You've got to be kidding me ....
It's not that I deny that love can be helpful, but we cannot leave it simply as an emotion which aids humans. It also distracts them from more important matters. By important, I mean
vital. People do stupid, damaging things for love. And maybe that's not
real love, but to acknowledge that is to paint a scary picture of Americans, at least. I have a joke that I approve of marriage because it's two people who would otherwise be annoying the rest of us pledging to take it out on each other hereafter.
All I want clear is that love can be harmful, too.
Yet neither gives me pleasure, thus to pursue either option would be illogical - for me!
Functionally, it's quite true.
Whether athiesm is logical or not depends on the athiest.
Perhaps, but it's not very dignified. Many a quiet atheist need not worry about such a sentiment, but of those who identify themselves as atheists, why? For what reasons are people atheists? I suppose if one is an atheist as a psychological reaction to authority issues, that I can understand. It actually comes down to a matter of my own disappointment, for whatever that may be worth. In the past I have defended atheism, a specific atheism which rested itself in objectivity and looked toward the benefit of being human. I don't see it. Atheism need not be logical, but illogical atheism need not be respected. Illogical
anything need not be respected.
Once upon a time the only difference between me and an atheist was that I would use a certain few words that they would not. When put to vital issues, those I knew who identified as atheists responded quite similarly to my own reactions. When too many subjectives got in the way, so goes the tragedy of my own tale, I watched these people retreat into bleak hopelessness. I didn't do much better, but in my own retreat I simply accepted that there were ideas beyond my conception and resurrected my patchwork paganism. It was a slow process, actually. It took a couple, maybe three years. But in the end, it was largely vocabulary that separated us.
It is the atheism I used to defend alongside Sciforums' atheists. The logical atheism that has since been soundly denounced by atheists.
Athiesm still rests on its foundation of logic, and is not an arbitrary application of logic.
Y'all are getting as bad as the Christians.
The
idea of atheism may rest on its foundation of logic. But it, too, draws conclusions with insufficient data. Rejecting what cannot be observed is one thing, but merely reacting to superficial concepts leaves atheism more of an identity politic than anything else.
Ne'er have I seen atheism executed according to its foundation of logic. I've seen a few people get close, and I must admit that one of our Sciforums posters has the capability to be among the most eloquent atheists I've ever known to expound on atheism--even through the occasional vitriol. But those ideas are no longer identifiably valid.
Atheism is logical if you say so,
Xev. How's that for logic?
I am, though, generally pleased to see you acknowledge greed (e.g. pursuit of pleasure) as you have. After I realized that, it took quite a while for the magnitude of what that meant to settle. I'm not sure it has yet. But when I was 12, I decided that, as a principle, nothing would surprise me anymore. It's come in generally quite handy. But if there's one thing that shocks and amazes me to this day, it's the things people will do in the name of the pursuit of happiness.
Before Pearl Jam there was Mother Love Bone. Be there a God in Heaven, may He rest Andrew Wood with gentlest care:
Wanna show you something like
The joy inside my heart
Seems I've been living in the temple of the dog
Where would I live, if I were a man of golden words?
And would I live, at all?
Words and music, my only tools
Communication
And on her arrival, I will set free the birds
It's a pretty time of year, and the mountains sing out loud
Tell me, Mr. Golden Words, how's about the world?
Tell me can you tell at all?
Words and music, my only tools
Communication
Let's fall in love with music
The driving force in our living
The only international language
Divine glory, the expression
The knees bow, the tongue confesses
The lord of lords, the king of kings
The king of kings
Words and music - my only tools
Communication
--Andy Wood (Mother Love Bone), Man of Golden Words
• • • • •
She be dancing by the moonlit sky
I'm talkin' to you
She be drinking all my early times
She be movin' like a butterfly
I'm just waiting on that dream - because the fast ones always ride for free
--Andy Wood (Mother Love Bone), Bone China
• • • • •
I never wanted
To write these words down for you
With the pages of phrases
Of things we'll never do
So I blow out the candle, and
I put you to bed
Since you can't say to me
Now how the dogs broke your bone
There's just one thing left to be said
Say hello to heaven
--Chris Cornell (Temple of the Dog), Say Hello 2 Heaven
• • • • •
Buying lies and stealing jokes
And laughing every time I choke
Biding all the time you took
Now I know why you've been taken
Now I know why you've been taken
So bleed your heart out
There's no more rides for free
Bleed your heart out
I said what's in it for me
--Chris Cornell (Soundgarden), Slaves & Bulldozers
Love can destroy. Andy also sang,
This is my kind of love. It's the kind that moves on. It's unkind and leaves me alone.
Of course, he also sang,
Some call me Georgie Boy, some call me Jesus.
thanx,
Tiassa
