SPAG heh. This thread is an amazing example of what happens when insufficient education and anthropomoprhism meet.
Atheist Realism?
- Thread starter ronan
- Start date
I had to repeat myself so much I know
it was principally because many people asked the same question many time.
You seem to have spent time just for quoting this repetition, but if you look on this forum, you will find many case like this, for question qnd for such thing as: brain causes consciousness or no brain, no consciousness ....
I had to answer back to make them understand that this belief is not justified at all. I probably did not succed, especially when I see that almost all attack are made on the form of rthe post and not on my arguments themselves (like what you just did). Prince James and Cris was maybe the only person here with who I could communicate. With most of the other people here, qt leqst the guy atheist who seem to be q lot more believer than any theist I met
, the discussion was closed before starting.I probably appear as somoene crazy (I am probably crazy, in fact like many on this earth)
with all the repetitionthat is true that "only consciousness exist" does not cope with life as it does not express our life with all its sensation, desire, goals, worries, perspective... but the point was not to discredit the life aspect but to finally see that there is something bigger than us when we look logically on the process by which we perceive this world
Perception exists!
but their existence are relative, instantenous
they depend on consciousness also
My existence is relative to the world. I will die, I am not eternal.
only one thing exist always, never change: consciousness
it perceive everything but I do not think I should repeat
Oh crunchy cat you are back, did you get out of your dream?
There never was one. Only invalid notions or falsified notions. I do have a question however, how would you feel and what would you do if science discovered every last detail about consciousness and showed it to be completely an effect of the brain?
hmmm, difficult question, there would be probably lot's of consequence:
we would be able to:
- make virtual reality no different (I mean it would not be possible to know if there is a difference) than reality
=> I would feel exited about that
- know people thought:
=> I would feel a little bit afraid of possible political consequences
it would also :
- restrict our freedom to the mechanism of the brain as we know it (restrict won't be the correct word if science is describing the truth because it would be anyway the reality)
=> I would feel a little less exited about the possibility of life.
I think there are more consequences but that is basically what I think first,
what would be your feelings?
maybe we should create a thread on this particular question?
I don't quite understand what you're trying to say here... the "possibility of life"?
It would be simply be a redundant validation for me; however, I would feel satisfied knowing another path of easy delusion had been eliminated.
Ronan:
How can it do so? Consciousness requires sensory stimulation in order to have certain categories of ideas. You agreed that there is not much difference between our mind and Consciousness. As such, it would stand to reason that nothing could ever have occurred, as Consciousness would not have had the information to do it.
Where did it come from otherwise?
HOw is this so? I certainly perceive things.
How can it do so? Consciousness requires sensory stimulation in order to have certain categories of ideas. You agreed that there is not much difference between our mind and Consciousness. As such, it would stand to reason that nothing could ever have occurred, as Consciousness would not have had the information to do it.
Where did it come from otherwise?
HOw is this so? I certainly perceive things.
I mean that the possibility that seem to offer life, the surprises, the unexpected, => the feeling of freedom would make no sense any more
while believing in something beyond, in consciousness that ultimately we are all give us all possibilities, freedom is thus established
so sad
Now, what would be your feeling if finnaly there is only consciousness and what we believe we are are only bundle of perceptions?
meaning that all your worries, your limitation are your creation, ultimately you are consciousness that perceive whatever it wants.
meaning that if you could stop your ego, you could perceive whatever. but remember you have to forgot your ego.
also meaning that if you do not stop your ego, you would still live in the world you are believing which define your identity
identity ultimately determined by your environment and thus science
being thus compatible with your view
requires sensory stimulation? why?
it contains all ideas all categories.
what is mind for you?
information is simultaneous to perception, no need of anything before or after.
consciousness was always there and will always be there
This 'I' is consciousness so indeed, it perceive. but as soon as you try to identify this 'I' you use your perceptions of your body, your habits... it is no more consciousness, it is ego.
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Ronan:
How can it contain "all ideas and categories" whjen the nature of the mind is such that without sensory stimulus, thought cannot be thought about certain categories? Without first having red appear to us, we cannot think of red. Just as we cannot speak of Aetherage.
How? What makes it necessary?
Why is ego construed as unsubstantial?
How can it contain "all ideas and categories" whjen the nature of the mind is such that without sensory stimulus, thought cannot be thought about certain categories? Without first having red appear to us, we cannot think of red. Just as we cannot speak of Aetherage.
How? What makes it necessary?
Why is ego construed as unsubstantial?
Prince James
unless how you perceive things comes into it.
for instance a vulture and a human can both see a dead dog.
One is delighted and the other is disgusted.
If your consciousness was placed in the body of a vulture, how do you think you would respond to a dead body?
unless how you perceive things comes into it.
for instance a vulture and a human can both see a dead dog.
One is delighted and the other is disgusted.
If your consciousness was placed in the body of a vulture, how do you think you would respond to a dead body?
Lightgigantic:
I'd look at as you said: With delight. It'd be like being invited to a banquet.
I'd look at as you said: With delight. It'd be like being invited to a banquet.
It sounds like what you are trying to say is that it would remove a source of hope investment for you. Does that sound about right?
so sad
Why?
Now, what would be your feeling if finnaly there is only consciousness and what we believe we are are only bundle of perceptions?
meaning that all your worries, your limitation are your creation, ultimately you are consciousness that perceive whatever it wants.
meaning that if you could stop your ego, you could perceive whatever. but remember you have to forgot your ego.
also meaning that if you do not stop your ego, you would still live in the world you are believing which define your identity
identity ultimately determined by your environment and thus science
being thus compatible with your view
I would feel utterly surprised.
hence there is an argument for distinctions between consciousness and mind, as well as senses and body
Lightgigantic:
How do you figure regarding consciousness and mind?
Moreover, my sense argument is based on knowledge. Consider a colour (we've been calling it Aetherage) which is an entirely new colour, not a shade or mixture of any of the others. Can you imagine it as it would appear?
How do you figure regarding consciousness and mind?
Moreover, my sense argument is based on knowledge. Consider a colour (we've been calling it Aetherage) which is an entirely new colour, not a shade or mixture of any of the others. Can you imagine it as it would appear?
consciousness contaisn all though which are experiences (perceptions)
consciousness contains you thinking about red, me perceieving an apple,,..... the vulture delighted and you disgusted... all though, all perceptions.
It is only when you identify with this perception, again another perception that you believe you are what you are.
Because unconsciousness is never capable of being experienced.
so consciousness is always there
because ego is a perception
the fatc that consciousness is dependent on brain means that the possibility of experiences are limited to your place and the environment in where you live (except for virtual reality as I said) it is also limited to the law of the phsyics that permited you to guess the content of consciousness.
this would imply for me less possibility of experiences, a restriction .
It is not really a removing of hope, I think I will still have hope because as an individual I would not know everything and thus my hope will still be there, but less delighted about the world. soemthing without so much possibilities.
Imagination would still be there but the point here is by knowing that it is only inagination the content loose of its strenght.
You seemed to not be delighted of any of the consequences while you seem to defend this view.
why so?
Ronan:
This is not answering the question. You agreed that we required sensory stimulation to imagine certain categories of existence. You also agreed that this worked on the level of the "Mind of God". As such, you are left with a dilemma: How can consciousness create the perceptions it knows nothing about?
This doesn't mean that unconsciousness cannot exist. What brought consciousness about? What is it necessity? How is it eternal?
Is it not the perceiver?
This is not answering the question. You agreed that we required sensory stimulation to imagine certain categories of existence. You also agreed that this worked on the level of the "Mind of God". As such, you are left with a dilemma: How can consciousness create the perceptions it knows nothing about?
This doesn't mean that unconsciousness cannot exist. What brought consciousness about? What is it necessity? How is it eternal?
Is it not the perceiver?
Do you mean that as imagination has less correspondence to actual reality, your happiness with life decreases?
Do you find that mystery is where you tend to invest your hope?
I value truth over emotional satisfaction (delight). I would defend something true and emotionally neutral over something not true and emotionally fantastic.
Simply because it would violate some knowns. Truth is the correspondence of an idea to actual reality, evidence is a demonstration of that correspondence, and all objective evidence to date doesn't support your assertion.
in short, the mind is what cover conscousness
kind of like your short is what covers your elbow - your shirt displays the ability to bend at the elbow because your arm does - and it has nothing to do with beige cotton/polyester weave stripes either
imagine?
sure
people who are colour blind imagine like that all the time