Atheism - what it means - a proposed forum standard

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Sarkus,

I am somewhat uncomfortable using this agnosticism route and it does need more thought. I'm hoping more posts like yours will take us forward. There is also the issue of common usage (or mis-usage) that will be a considerable issue to overcome.

Just needs more research.
 
I think I'm mostly with what Cris is proposing.

The way I look at it is that "belief in there being a god" is like wearing a white hat, and "belief in there being no god" is like wearing a black hat.
People can wear a white hat, a black hat, or no hat at all.
And atheism equates to anyone not wearing a white hat.

Thats one of the "stupid arguments" in the evilbible link

Stupid Argument #8: All Atheists Lack a Belief in Gods so Anyone who Lacks a Belief in Gods is an Atheist.



This argument is so damn stupid that it is rarely expressed explicitly. Usually it is only vaguely implied by statements such as "the only thing atheists have in common is a lack of belief in gods".



The logical mistake here should be self-evident to any adult with half a brain, so I won't explain it. But if you are in a child in elementary school, try to figure it out with this analogy: All dogs have fur so anything with fur is a dog.

Do you disagree with this?
 
Thats one of the "stupid arguments" in the evilbible link
Certainly what you posted from that link might be, but it does not relate to the analogy I wrote in any way other than through your misconception.

Do you disagree with this?
I agree that the Stupid Argument #8 as posted in the evilbible link is logically fallacious - but as I have stated, it has no bearing on what I wrote - and your post is thus a logical fallacy of its own: a red herring.

Nice try, though.


More akin to the analogy I posted:
"All dogs have hair. If it doesn't have hair, it is bald."
Do you agree with this, SAM?
 
Certainly what you posted from that link might be, but it does not relate to the analogy I wrote in any way other than through your misconception.

I agree that the Stupid Argument #8 as posted in the evilbible link is logically fallacious - but as I have stated, it has no bearing on what I wrote - and your post is thus a logical fallacy of its own: a red herring.

Nice try, though.


More akin to the analogy I posted:
"All dogs have hair. If it doesn't have hair, it is bald."
Do you agree with this, SAM?


Umm yes. But thats not what you are saying. You are saying, Fish lack wings. Therefore, if it lacks wings, its a fish. I'm surprised something that obvious needs to be explained. There is a reason that reputed dictionaries and encyclopedias don't follow this silliness.
 
Umm yes. But thats not what you are saying. You are saying, Fish lack wings. Therefore, if it lacks wings, its a fish. I'm surprised something that obvious needs to be explained. There is a reason that reputed dictionaries and encyclopedias don't follow this silliness.

You've got it backwards. It's
"theists belive in god, therefore you if you lack this belief you are not a theist(therefore an atheist by common definition)"
"fish *insert precise scientific definition of fish here* have these traits, therefore if it doesn't, then it is not a fish."
 
Umm yes. But thats not what you are saying.
Umm - yes it is.

You are saying, Fish lack wings. Therefore, if it lacks wings, its a fish. I'm surprised something that obvious needs to be explained. There is a reason that reputed dictionaries and encyclopedias don't follow this silliness.
No matter how many times you state it, it is NOT what I am saying.
I have already stated what I am saying when I originally stated it. You fail to understand it and then accuse me of not saying it the way I said it? Wow - if only everyone debated with such abandon of decency.

In my sentence above, substitute "dogs" with "theists", "hair" with "a belief in the existence of god", and "bald" with "atheist".

So "All dogs have hair. If it doesn't have hair, it is bald" becomes:
"All theists have a belief in the existence of god. If it doesn't have a belief in the existence of god it is atheist".

To align it with the analogy of hats: "All theists wear white hats. If it doesn't wear a white hat it is atheist."

What is there within this that you do not understand?
Notice that there is no comparable logical fallacy in those statements that you seem to suggest.

And please, do not accuse me of not saying it in the logically fallacious way you want me to say it rather than in the way I actually did say it.
 
I'd like to stop this line of reasoning, it is not relevant to the topic.

An atheist in my proposal is defined by what they think not what someone does not.

An athiest here has deliberatley chosen to not believe in a god or gods, this implies absolutely nothing about those who have not considered the issues, and doesn't imply the label can be assigned to anyone else.
 
I'd like to stop this line of reasoning, it is not relevant to the topic.

An atheist in my proposal is defined by what they think not what someone does not.

An athiest here has deliberatley chosen to not believe in a god or gods, this implies absolutely nothing about those who have not considered the issues, and doesn't imply the label can be assigned to anyone else.
But it is relevant to the topic...
Otherwise how do you tie this to the penultimate line of your OP: "If you are not actively a Theist, you are passively an Atheist."?

Surely someone who has not thought about the issue is not actively a theist, right? Therefore this penultimate sentence of yours implies that anyone not a theist, for any reason at all, falls under the label "atheist".

If you wish atheism only to be an active position (i.e. held only after due consideration) then I'm not sure the definition works, and re-reading the linked-web-sites "What is Atheism" - it mentions nothing about it needing to be an intellectual position.

"Lack of belief in gods" is as concise as you're going to get. And still people will argue about what it means to have a "lack of belief".
Requiring agnosticism to be the foundation of atheism is debatable (imho).
Requiring it to be a position only held once considered... certainly no-one could call themself an atheist without considering it (the way you can't not think about a pink elephant when reading the words). But surely you can refer to someone as atheist without that person needing to have considered it.

Maybe a definition such as "A considered position of not holding the belief that god(s) exist, arrived at through (intellectual honesty /) personal lack of evidence."

This thus makes it a position one arrives at after consideration (and not available to those who have not considered it), and skirts the issue of whether one holds knowledge of the metaphysical issues to be fundamentally unknowable.
 
sarkus,

Surely someone who has not thought about the issue is not actively a theist, right? Therefore this penultimate sentence of yours implies that anyone not a theist, for any reason at all, falls under the label "atheist".
No I disagree. The issue there was that the person had deliberatley attempted to not take a position, i.e. they had considered the issue. But that choice is in effect to take the atheist position. This is a case where "passive athiesm" applies.

What I want to make clear is that that scenario is very different from the infants, children, and those who have not given thought to the issues. I would not label them athiests. So I don't hold with the 'if you are not a theist then you are an atheist' argument.

As for "lack of belief", "absence of belief", "disbelieve", these are all synonomous, and mean the same thing, i.e. the belief that a god exists is not consistent with their reasoned perspectives.

But, you make some good points.
 
The way I look at it is that "belief in there being a god" is like wearing a white hat, and "belief in there being no god" is like wearing a black hat.
People can wear a white hat, a black hat, or no hat at all.
And atheism equates to anyone not wearing a white hat.

Surely noone could argue that "not wearing a white hat" is the same as "wearing a black hat"?

Agreed. Make it the forum standard.

I simply do not understand why this has to go any further than saying that an atheist is someone that does not believe in any gods.

Also, SAM, not this again :bugeye:
You simply do not get it.
 
I notice no one is using an authorized dictionary. Figures.

If you'll look at my first post here [2], you'll see plainly that I'm using the Concise Oxford Dictionary [COD].
What do you mean by "authorised dictionary"?

OriginalBiggles, Prime
 
An atheist in my proposal is defined by what they think not what someone does not.

You have it, right there. An atheist is someone who believes there is no God. Babies do not think about God, agnostics take no position and autistic or retarded may not be able to think or communicate what they think. Dogs, cats and viruses are unable to communicate their theological positions.

Hence the only ones who are atheists are those who say they are. Example, while 16% of people were unaffiliated with any religion in the Pew poll on religion in America, only 1.6 percent self identified as atheists.

http://religions.pewforum.org/reports


I notice no one is using an authorized dictionary. Figures.


If you'll look at my first post here [2], you'll see plainly that I'm using the Concise Oxford Dictionary [COD].
What do you mean by "authorised dictionary"?

OriginalBiggles, Prime

You're right, I apologise. No one but you is using an authorised dictionary. I was referring to the ones making no sense.
 
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I suspect, people like ToR and Lori, religious but no affiliation to organised religion. I suppose they have their secular counterparts.
 
Agreed. Make it the forum standard.

I simply do not understand why this has to go any further than saying that an atheist is someone that does not believe in any gods.

Also, SAM, not this again :bugeye:
You simply do not get it.

It doesn't have to go any further than saying an atheist doesn't believe in any gods. That is the definition of an atheist.
 
Areligious but with no affiliation to any organised areligiousness?
 
Areligious but with no affiliation to any organised areligiousness?

And what would an 'areligous' organization be? I mean atheists are not affiliated with any organizations, they simply do not believe in god. Give an example of a 'areligious organization'.
 
No idea, I've met religious unaffiliated people, I don't know any nonreligious unaffiliated people.
 
No idea, I've met religious unaffiliated people, I don't know any nonreligious unaffiliated people.

Right which makes me take that the poll in that link with a grain of salt since they fail to say what they mean by 'non-religious unaffiliated'.
 
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