And this is relevant to atheists because?
Atheism, Evolution and Environmental conservation
- Thread starter S.A.M.
- Start date
And this is relevant to atheists because?
Its relevant because atheists, like all people, have an innate drive to preserve the things they like/care about. Most atheists like/care about the survival of the human species and the environment in general. Evolution predicts that a species that doesn't have a drive to preserve itself wouldn't last long, so it isn't surprising that most humans want the human species to continue to exist. Even if one doesn't care about the human race in general, most people still have an innate drive to not leave a f***** up world for their own children.
But they'll die and turn to dust, so why do they care what happens after they die?
I guess atheists are just advanced enough to be motivated by things other than their own personal, selfish gains and pleasures. If you really only do anything or care about anything because its of some direct personal benefit to you, then in my opinion you're a pretty terrible human being. But, hey, good luck with your selfish existance. I hope some day you learn to care about something other than yourself.
But its illogical. All change is evolution. All people are motivated to multiply and support themselves on resources. Why should anyone prevent them from doing so, because of what may or may not happen in the future? And if they care so much, why do they use any resources themselves?
If you want an answer from the perspective of evolutionary biology, it would be that people are evolutionarily driven to ensure the survival of their own descendants (so that their genes will continue to be passed on). If damage to the environment threatens future generations of human life, then evolutionarily we would expect people to want to prevent that.
But on a more general note, it's disturbing to me that you consider it "illogical" for a person to care about anything other than himself. Is the concept of caring about something even though it isn't of direct benefit to you really so hard to understand? Is the fact that you don't want to be punished (either with real punishment in this life or magical punishment in the afterlife) really the only thing that's keeping you from going out to rape, pillage and litter?
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M*W: For my children, grandchildren, great grandchildren in the generations to come. I owe them that. I will be dead and become part of the environment. In that respect, I'll still be with them, and by taking care of the environment, they would essentially be taking care of me then still. That's the way it works.
Simon Anders
Valued Senior Member
Christianity is a poor mix with conservation.
1) this life and this world and not the real thing. the real thing is heaven (or hell) after death. So fucking up the environment is is not really a sin.
2) God gave humans dominion over nature. and while stewardship can be drawn out of this and some christians do, in general it has been taken as the natural world is property and it is ours to do with what we will.
Atheists coming out of Christianity (and closely related Judaism) therefore either continue these very sharp lines between the human and the natural and don't give a shit about the earth or they can rebel against it.
What does Christianity have to do with atheism? Is there a competition?
You'll be dead. You owe them nothing. They are just biological molecules who will either survive or not, depending on how well they adapt to their environment, about which you know nothing.
What does punishment have to do with biology or atheism? Its a religious concept. Raping and pillaging is normal evolutionary behaviour. So is raping and pillaging the environment.
Simon Anders
Valued Senior Member
It is always a question with you SAM what the actual issue is in a thread. So I will keep my eyes open. But face value....
Atheists can and do care about the environment, at least some do. They see it as logical to care for future generations, those who inherit their genes, and many care directly about animals and ecosystems, etc. They consider themselves one species amongst many and while, like religious people, they tend to put humans way out in front of other species, if they can support both humans and nature - which really, one must, since without nature, no humans - they support both.
Atheists care about things, even with no God to tell them to. Though monotheists and atheists tend to care less and have a more detached relationship with nature than many pagans.
Monotheisms and atheists share transcendant deities. They are very closely connected paradigms.
How is it logical to care for the unknown?
What if their future generations were like Stalin's army? Mass murderers or violent criminals?
Simon Anders
Valued Senior Member
I think struggle would be a better word. Most of the atheists I know came out of either Christianity or Judaism. Seen from Christian perspectives they seem very different, not believing in God is the sticking point.
But seen from outside both they end up seeming very similar in relation to nature. Nature is other - however much lip service atheists may give about humans being just another species. Atheists tend to emphasize those qualities that do or they think do separate them from other animals and overvalue these. So very verbal mental abilities. Also math derived skills. Monotheists often value the, at least now, abstract transcendant deity and afterlife. So both these paradigms allow for an extremely utilitarian - and often short term - relationship with nature. Nature has little value in itself, certainly. Further civilization is good, nature is bad (both in ourselves and
out there is a commonly shared outlook).
You didn’t seem to understand how an atheist could care about anyone/anything other than himself. You were asking, "Why not wreck the environment? It's no harm to you personally..." as if a person could only refrain from doing something if it was of direct harm to them. I was asking you if you would go out to rape, pillage and litter if you knew that there was no threat of punishment, and performing those acts wouldn't result in any harm to you. I assume that the answer is no. If you explore why you wouldn't do those things even if you could, perhaps you will gain some understanding of why an atheist wouldn't do them either.
No I cannot understand how an atheist can care about the unknown. That requires faith.
Simon Anders
Valued Senior Member
People tend not to think their grandchildren will be brown shirts or crusader's, unless they want their grandchildren to be that.
But I don't want to overstate logic as a motivating factor or even as a claimed one. They do not lose romantic or emotional connections to things just because they lost belief in God. Many romanticize or feel fondness of a wide variety of species, for nature in general, for specific regions, or this or that lake or stream, for abstract things like diversity in nature and so on. And they hope that there will be a world left for the great great grandchildren.
But why don't you say it instead of waiting for us to so that you can they say it.
Spit it out woman. What is the hypocrisy you see? What makes it impossible for an atheist to care about the environment. It is clear that many do. At least it is clear to me since I know many who are. Why does this seem self-contradictory to you?
What do you mean, "the unknown"? We know about the environment. And we like it. That's why we want to protect it. We also like the human race, and want it to continue. Although we don't know the specifics of what the human race might be like in the future, we still desire for it to continue. Why is this so difficult for you to graps?
Yeah, but you're talking about an unknown future and unknown descendents and unknown environment. Besides, everything is biology.
So? I like the human race and I want it to continue. Maybe it's an evolutionarily-imposed biological drive. Maybe I just happen to think that humans are generally cool. Does it matter?
No, it just does not go with the "give me evidence or give me death" mentality of atheists.