Astrotheology and the Bible

[Prince_James]

In the thread on God's will by SetAlpha6, Medicine woman posted this:

Medicine Woman
Jesus -- Mythstory Not History (3,618 posts)
Yesterday, 03:59 PM #5

As I recall, Luke was a physician, and Jesus was called The Great

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M*W: Yes, that's how the story goes, but it's all symbolism for something else. That something else is astro-theology.

The twelve apostles refer to the 12 signs of the zodiac. The four gospels refer to the 4 seasons. The G.Luke represents spring. Luke is Latin for "Lucian," or "light." This is not too far off from "Lucifer," or "light-bringer."

John the Baptist was a fictional character associated with the Sign of Aquarius. Aquarius is the "Water-Bearer." The Sign of Aquarius rises slightly above the horizon in August, but its body cannot be viewed. This astrological phenomena is the progenitor of the myth of John the Baptist's beheading.

James is represented by the Signs of Scorpio and Capricorn. James also associated with the god Janus which is another name for January. These are the signs of winter when the sun (god) goes away. James is also associated with death.

Thomas is another name for Tammuz. Thomas was known as the "doubter." It is said that Thomas is the twin brother of Christ.

John is derived from Oannes, Joannes and Jahan, the Sumerian-Babylonian fish god. From this early god, we also derive Janus (January), the god who opens the year. Much Christian symbolism comes from the cult of Oannes.

The four gospels are representations of the four cardinal points of the zodiac! North, South, East and West.

"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years" - (Genesis 1:14)

The Book of Luke is transparent and obvious to those who have done their homework. Luke is Latin for Lucius and both words mean Light. The House of Light, of Lucius is Leo, the natal house of the sun. Therefore, G.Luke is known for its portrayal of the nativity. Luke also represents the Sign of Leo. The sun rises to its astrological zenith in the Northern sky in the signs of Cancer and Leo during the months of July and August. Christian iconography depicts one of the Evangelists who is represented by a Lion. In the traditional nativity scenes we see 4 animals around the cradle of the Son/Sun king. One of these is a Lion. Christians believe that there was a lion in the area who just happened to wander into the cave (inn) to take a peek at the sleeping baby Jesus. Good thing the lion wasn't hungry. Symbolically, Jesus is often called "Lion of Judea." It's also been said that the lamb (Jesus) will lay down with the lion.

Luke is represented by the star Aldebaran. When the sun passses by this star Spring (the vernal equinox) begins. The sun (god) appears to move upward (or ascends) to heaven. At this time christians celebrate Easter and the crucifixion of Jesus (sun) who lives again and ascends into heaven. Jews celebrate Passover. The sun crosses or "passes over" the equinox. This cross-ification becomes a symbolic (crucifixion) and Passover.

I cannot stress enough the mythological symbolism in the bible, especially the new testament. The new testament is nothing more than an astrological calendar.

I would like to tackle this, but seeing how the other thread is inappropriate, I shall do so here.

The twelve apostles refer to the 12 signs of the zodiac.

This could only happen if the gospels were written by a single person, which is held not to be the case. Surely, not everyone would come up with 12 apostles. Moreover, it is useful to if one counts Jesus, the number is 13, not 12.

The four gospels refer to the 4 seasons.

Again, this is only possible if this was written by a single person. Moreover, how can we say which one is which? There is nothing "spring time" or "winter time" about any of the gospels. They were also written separately and not brought together for quite a while.

The G.Luke represents spring.

Why?

Luke is Latin for "Lucian," or "light." This is not too far off from "Lucifer," or "light-bringer."

Lucifer was never in the Bible. This was St. Jerome's error.

Also, whereas Luke may be related to Lucas, light, it was not his original name (he'd have a Jewish name). He was also not an apostle (amongst the 12 followers of Jesus).

John the Baptist was a fictional character associated with the Sign of Aquarius. Aquarius is the "Water-Bearer." The Sign of Aquarius rises slightly above the horizon in August, but its body cannot be viewed. This astrological phenomena is the progenitor of the myth of John the Baptist's beheading.

What relation does Aquarius have to John the Baptist besides the fact that he baptized and Aquarius was a water carrier?

James is represented by the Signs of Scorpio and Capricorn. James also associated with the god Janus which is another name for January. These are the signs of winter when the sun (god) goes away. James is also associated with death.

As James is my name, I happen to know a bit about it. James and Jacob derive from the Hebrew for "supplanter". James has nothing to do with Janus. Janus means "doorway".

What is his connection to Scorpio and Capricorn?

What makes him associated with winter and death?

Thomas is another name for Tammuz. Thomas was known as the "doubter." It is said that Thomas is the twin brother of Christ.

Thomas means "the twin" whereas Tammuz means "the true son". Tammuz was also a deity.

John is derived from Oannes, Joannes and Jahan, the Sumerian-Babylonian fish god. From this early god, we also derive Janus (January), the god who opens the year. Much Christian symbolism comes from the cult of Oannes.

John means "God is merciful". Oannes was a bringer of wisdom sent by Ea. I know of no connection to Janus.

The four gospels are representations of the four cardinal points of the zodiac! North, South, East and West.

How?

The Book of Luke is transparent and obvious to those who have done their homework. Luke is Latin for Lucius and both words mean Light. The House of Light, of Lucius is Leo, the natal house of the sun. Therefore, G.Luke is known for its portrayal of the nativity. Luke also represents the Sign of Leo. The sun rises to its astrological zenith in the Northern sky in the signs of Cancer and Leo during the months of July and August. Christian iconography depicts one of the Evangelists who is represented by a Lion. In the traditional nativity scenes we see 4 animals around the cradle of the Son/Sun king. One of these is a Lion. Christians believe that there was a lion in the area who just happened to wander into the cave (inn) to take a peek at the sleeping baby Jesus. Good thing the lion wasn't hungry. Symbolically, Jesus is often called "Lion of Judea." It's also been said that the lamb (Jesus) will lay down with the lion.

Leo is associated with "light"? In what system of astrology? I thought it was associated with fire? Fire might produce light, but it is not necessarily associated with it, specifically as there is no quality for the other elements like such.

Luke is represented by the star Aldebaran. When the sun passses by this star Spring (the vernal equinox) begins. The sun (god) appears to move upward (or ascends) to heaven. At this time christians celebrate Easter and the crucifixion of Jesus (sun) who lives again and ascends into heaven. Jews celebrate Passover. The sun crosses or "passes over" the equinox. This cross-ification becomes a symbolic (crucifixion) and Passover.

Aldebaran is in Taurus, not Leo. Taurus is an Earth sign.

 

[SetiAlpha6]

Thanks for looking into this!

 

[Prince_James]

A pleasure.

 

[grover]

You bring up some valid stuff. But there are undeniable correlations between Christianity and the pagan fertility religions of that time that were heavily influenced by astrology. One notable religion being Mithraism in which a bull (taurus) was worshipped and he had twelve followers, othe similiarities too like Dec. 25th. Jesus' symbol was also a fish (pisces). I don'tremember all the similiarities but look it up. It's pretty interesting.

Another random thing that popped into my head is Jesus birth announced by a star.

 

[IceAgeCivilizations]

Jesus was born in the late September, Roshashana, when the flocks of sheep had come down from the highlands to winter.

Dec. 25 was used as his birthdate by the early Roman Catholic church to entice sunworshippers and astrologers to join in, when the day is shortest, in the dead of winter, when the pagans celebrated that the days would become longer, for the growing season.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Prince_James: In the thread on God's will by SetAlpha6, Medicine woman posted this:

Medicine Woman
Jesus -- Mythstory Not History (3,618 posts)
Yesterday, 03:59 PM #5

I would like to tackle this, but seeing how the other thread is inappropriate, I shall do so here.

M*W: The twelve apostles refer to the 12 signs of the zodiac.

PJ: This could only happen if the gospels were written by a single person, which is held not to be the case. Surely, not everyone would come up with 12 apostles. Moreover, it is useful if one counts Jesus, the number is 13, not 12.

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M*W: That is because you are interpreting the topic of my post through christian perspective. I certainly understand how this can be. Many years ago I could only interpret things I had read through "catholic eyes." This tendency blinds us to other possible (and sometimes uncanny) interpretations.

It is unknown who actually wrote the gospels. It has long been assumed that the writers were MML&J when, in fact, MML&J are the book titles and not the authors (regardless of how your bible describes them).

The gospels could have been written by one or several authors. That really has no significance whatsoever. The true and original interpretion of the gospels is what is in question here.

The origin and significance of the number "12" arose long before the original recordings of the bible texts began. In fact, the origination and significance of "12" came about some 10,000-20,000 years prior to the beginning of the writing of the old testament, and its significance was based on the 12 constellations of the zodiac.

Ancient nomads traveled by night and rested during the day. They made their journeys by the night skies. As they watched the night skies in their travels, they created animal and human shapes they saw among the stars. They gave them names and created stories surrounding the star formations. This lore passed down through the ages and eventually evolved into man-made religions which I would date to be about 7,000-8,000 years ago when recorded history began. (However, we did have cave paintings and other artifacts that have been discovered dating from about 35,000 years ago).

As man-made religions became common to ancient man, these religions developed from the same stories created by the nomads. Those stories had already become myth by that time. Early peoples believed these stories to be factual and not just ancient lore. They worshipped the sun as the creator of the universe, which they believed this god to be in the center of the universe.

The early Hebrews who came out of Egypt (were Egyptians and not Hebrews), who were known as a tribe of Egyptian "Abiru." They later become known as the Hebrews, although the OT doesn't make it clear to us that they were really Egyptians.

The Hebrews became known for their:

12 patriarchs
12 sons
12 tribes
12 anointed people
12 foundations for their heavenly Jerusalem
12 year-old Jesus at the temple
12 apostles
12 legions
12 signs of the zodiac

http://www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/numscript/12.htm

The number 12 is considered to be the complete number. In astro-theology, the number 13 is not significant (to my knowledge). For biblical interpretation, the number 12 represents totalness and all things good. God's sun in the center of our solar system is surrounded by the 12 signs.

M*W: The four gospels refer to the 4 seasons

PJ: Again, this is only possible if this was written by a single person. Moreover, how can we say which one is which? There is nothing "spring time" or "winter time" about any of the gospels. They were also written separately and not brought together for quite a while.

M*W: Again, you are interpreting the gospels through christian eyes, and it doesn't matter who or how many people wrote the gospels. If you could possibly read the gospels from an astro-theological viewpoint, you would understand what I am saying. The following link is quite comprehensive and may answer many of the questions you have presented to me. This link also addresses the seasonal interpretations of the gospels:

http://www.taroscopes.com/astro-theology/astrotheology.html

As far as the gospels being written separately, that is the general belief, but the reality of it is, we don't really know for sure. We assume each gospel was written by a different author, and that would make sense, since they differ in context. Even the strongest of christians have to admit that there are differences that cannot be explained. If they were truly inspired by a god, they would concur, wouldn't you think? That goes for the entire bible. If it were truly inspired by a higher power, don't you think that higher power would be able to get it not only right but accurate?

PJ: The G.Luke represents spring. Why?

*************
M*W: That's the astro-theological interpretation. The four gospels signify the four seasons, but I'll need to do more research on this. For now, here's another comprehensive website that may answer your questions:

http://www.home.att.net/~agkh/bible.htm

PJ: Lucifer was never in the Bible. This was St. Jerome's error.

*************
M*W: My point was that Luke is very similar to "Lucian," and "Lucifer," etc. All refer to "light" in some way. Therefore, the days get longer in spring, and according to astro-theology, spring relates to G.Luke. Spring is a time for healing from the winter's cold, and a time to thaw out from the darkness (death) of winter.

Wikipedia offers the following synopsis:

"Because the planet Venus (Lucifer) is an inferior planet, meaning that its orbit lies between the orbit of the Earth and the Sun, it can never rise high in the sky at night as seen from Earth. It can be seen in the eastern morning sky for an hour or so before the Sun rises, and in the western evening sky for an hour or so after the Sun sets, but never during the dark of midnight.

Venus (Lucifer) is the brightest object in the sky after the Sun and the Moon. As bright and as brilliant as it is, ancient people couldn't understand why they couldn't see it at midnight like the outer planets, or during midday, like the Sun and Moon. Some believe they invented myths about Lucifer being cast out from Heaven to explain this. Lucifer was supposed to shine so bright because it wanted to take over the thrones or status of Saturn and Jupiter, both of which were considered most important by the worshippers of planetary deities at the time."

PJ: What relation does Aquarius have to John the Baptist besides the fact that he baptized and Aquarius was a water carrier?

*************
M*W: As one of the 12 signs of the zodiac (astro-logos; the word of god), Aquarius represented John the Baptist. Every January 22, JtB baptizes Jesus at noon when the sun enters Aquarius. For an indepth explanation of the astro-theological meansing of JtB's role in the NT, please click this link:

http://www.usbible.com/astrology/john_the_baptist's_stars.htm

When the sign of Aquarius goes beneath the sun, all that is left is the "head." It appears then that JtB was beheaded as that's all the ancient nomads could see.

PJ: As James is my name, I happen to know a bit about it. James and Jacob derive from the Hebrew for "supplanter". James has nothing to do with Janus. Janus means "doorway".

*************
M*W: I wish I could remember the website that referred to Janus, although I know it is directly related to January (the "doorway" to the new year).

PJ: What is his connection to Scorpio and Capricorn?

*************
M*W: I would refer you to the following websites:

http://www.worldspirituality.org/astro-theology.html

http://www.novareinna.com/constellation/bible.html

http://www.usbible.com/astrology/gospel_zodiac.htm

PJ: What makes him associated with winter and death?

*************
M*W: Winter is a time of darkness. Ancient man saw the darkness of winter as the "death" of their god, the sun. In spring, the days become longer, and ancient man believed their god was resurrected.

I shall continue to answer your other questions at another time. I must go for now.

 

[Prince_James]

Medicine Woman:

It is unknown who actually wrote the gospels. It has long been assumed that the writers were MML&J when, in fact, MML&J are the book titles and not the authors (regardless of how your bible describes them).

True, yes. But even scholarly, non-Catholic, research suggests four or more authors, using at least two sources of information.

The number 12 is considered to be the complete number. In astro-theology, the number 13 is not significant (to my knowledge). For biblical interpretation, the number 12 represents totalness and all things good. God's sun in the center of our solar system is surrounded by the 12 signs.

Yet the God of the Israelites does not seem to be a sun God. He, in fact, seems to be a pety mountain war God, robbed from the Caananites, even down to his name. How then do your connect astrology there?

M*W: Again, you are interpreting the gospels through christian eyes, and it doesn't matter who or how many people wrote the gospels. If you could possibly read the gospels from an astro-theological viewpoint, you would understand what I am saying. The following link is quite comprehensive and may answer many of the questions you have presented to me. This link also addresses the seasonal interpretations of the gospels:

I shall read it over right now.

But I am disturbed by...what seems to be new age references to Atlantis and Lemuria.

Also, I do not believe it has been shown genetically or historically, that the Irish populated Egypt. However, it is certain that the Egyptians were not Negroid and there is evidence that red headed people were in Egypt, specifically considering the fact that Set was the patron of red headed people.

Anyway, this website is, to say the least, a bit tainted by New Age thought. Have you anymore reliable astro-theology websites?

Although as someone of Irish descent, I can't say I mind hearing that my ancestors helped conquer the world!

As far as the gospels being written separately, that is the general belief, but the reality of it is, we don't really know for sure. We assume each gospel was written by a different author, and that would make sense, since they differ in context. Even the strongest of christians have to admit that there are differences that cannot be explained. If they were truly inspired by a god, they would concur, wouldn't you think? That goes for the entire bible. If it were truly inspired by a higher power, don't you think that higher power would be able to get it not only right but accurate?

Well yes, whereas we can surely admit that you are right in that we do not know for sure, it is suggested by the majority of scholars, secular and religious both. Their gross inaccuracies and discrepancies, as well as there -being- four gospels, certainly speaks of this, also.

But yes, certainly the New Testament proves itself to be the work of man, not of God.

M*W: That's the astro-theological interpretation. The four gospels signify the four seasons, but I'll need to do more research on this. For now, here's another comprehensive website that may answer your questions:

http://www.home.att.net/~agkh/bible.htm

The website is down/the link was copied wrong. Might you get me another?

Venus (Lucifer) is the brightest object in the sky after the Sun and the Moon. As bright and as brilliant as it is, ancient people couldn't understand why they couldn't see it at midnight like the outer planets, or during midday, like the Sun and Moon. Some believe they invented myths about Lucifer being cast out from Heaven to explain this. Lucifer was supposed to shine so bright because it wanted to take over the thrones or status of Saturn and Jupiter, both of which were considered most important by the worshippers of planetary deities at the time."

I do not think Lucifer in Greco-Roman beliefs ever had this quality of being "thrown out from Heaven". Indeed, he simply seems to be a personification of the morning star and nothing more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer#Roman_poetic_appellation

M*W: As one of the 12 signs of the zodiac (astro-logos; the word of god), Aquarius represented John the Baptist. Every January 22, JtB baptizes Jesus at noon when the sun enters Aquarius. For an indepth explanation of the astro-theological meansing of JtB's role in the NT, please click this link:

Just a quick nitpick: Astrology does not translate into "astro-logos" and "the word of God". It translates to "one who deals (logos) stars (astro)". Or perhaps "the word/reason of stars" (although this would be an inferior translation).

http://www.usbible.com/astrology/john_the_baptist's_stars.htm

Yet is not the significance of Aquarius, like the other sun-signs, to be found when the sun is in them, not when it rises and such? September 24th is Libra, not Aquarius.

M*W: I wish I could remember the website that referred to Janus, although I know it is directly related to January (the "doorway" to the new year).

Yes, but interesting: January was not the original Roman new year. March was.

M*W: I would refer you to the following websites:

http://www.worldspirituality.org/astro-theology.html

http://www.novareinna.com/constellation/bible.html

http://www.usbible.com/astrology/gospel_zodiac.htm

None of this seems to be refering to James. Also, there were four Jameses. Who are you speaking of? James the Just? James the Great? James the Less? Or James, the brother of Jude?

M*W: Winter is a time of darkness. Ancient man saw the darkness of winter as the "death" of their god, the sun. In spring, the days become longer, and ancient man believed their god was resurrected.

Yes, but where is James associated with that?

I shall continue to answer your other questions at another time. I must go for now.

Certainly!

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Prince_James: Medicine Woman:



True, yes. But even scholarly, non-Catholic, research suggests four or more authors, using at least two sources of information.



Yet the God of the Israelites does not seem to be a sun God. He, in fact, seems to be a pety mountain war God, robbed from the Caananites, even down to his name. How then do your connect astrology there?




I shall read it over right now.

But I am disturbed by...what seems to be new age references to Atlantis and Lemuria.

Also, I do not believe it has been shown genetically or historically, that the Irish populated Egypt. However, it is certain that the Egyptians were not Negroid and there is evidence that red headed people were in Egypt, specifically considering the fact that Set was the patron of red headed people.

Anyway, this website is, to say the least, a bit tainted by New Age thought. Have you anymore reliable astro-theology websites?

Although as someone of Irish descent, I can't say I mind hearing that my ancestors helped conquer the world!



Well yes, whereas we can surely admit that you are right in that we do not know for sure, it is suggested by the majority of scholars, secular and religious both. Their gross inaccuracies and discrepancies, as well as there -being- four gospels, certainly speaks of this, also.

But yes, certainly the New Testament proves itself to be the work of man, not of God.



The website is down/the link was copied wrong. Might you get me another?



I do not think Lucifer in Greco-Roman beliefs ever had this quality of being "thrown out from Heaven". Indeed, he simply seems to be a personification of the morning star and nothing more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer#Roman_poetic_appellation



Just a quick nitpick: Astrology does not translate into "astro-logos" and "the word of God". It translates to "one who deals (logos) stars (astro)". Or perhaps "the word/reason of stars" (although this would be an inferior translation).



Yet is not the significance of Aquarius, like the other sun-signs, to be found when the sun is in them, not when it rises and such? September 24th is Libra, not Aquarius.



Yes, but interesting: January was not the original Roman new year. March was.



None of this seems to be refering to James. Also, there were four Jameses. Who are you speaking of? James the Just? James the Great? James the Less? Or James, the brother of Jude?



Yes, but where is James associated with that?



Certainly![/QUOTE]

 

[Oniw17]

Prince_James: Medicine Woman:



True, yes. But even scholarly, non-Catholic, research suggests four or more authors, using at least two sources of information.



Yet the God of the Israelites does not seem to be a sun God. He, in fact, seems to be a pety mountain war God, robbed from the Caananites, even down to his name. How then do your connect astrology there?




I shall read it over right now.

But I am disturbed by...what seems to be new age references to Atlantis and Lemuria.

Also, I do not believe it has been shown genetically or historically, that the Irish populated Egypt. However, it is certain that the Egyptians were not Negroid and there is evidence that red headed people were in Egypt, specifically considering the fact that Set was the patron of red headed people.

Anyway, this website is, to say the least, a bit tainted by New Age thought. Have you anymore reliable astro-theology websites?

Although as someone of Irish descent, I can't say I mind hearing that my ancestors helped conquer the world!



Well yes, whereas we can surely admit that you are right in that we do not know for sure, it is suggested by the majority of scholars, secular and religious both. Their gross inaccuracies and discrepancies, as well as there -being- four gospels, certainly speaks of this, also.

But yes, certainly the New Testament proves itself to be the work of man, not of God.



The website is down/the link was copied wrong. Might you get me another?



I do not think Lucifer in Greco-Roman beliefs ever had this quality of being "thrown out from Heaven". Indeed, he simply seems to be a personification of the morning star and nothing more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer#Roman_poetic_appellation



Just a quick nitpick: Astrology does not translate into "astro-logos" and "the word of God". It translates to "one who deals (logos) stars (astro)". Or perhaps "the word/reason of stars" (although this would be an inferior translation).



Yet is not the significance of Aquarius, like the other sun-signs, to be found when the sun is in them, not when it rises and such? September 24th is Libra, not Aquarius.



Yes, but interesting: January was not the original Roman new year. March was.



None of this seems to be refering to James. Also, there were four Jameses. Who are you speaking of? James the Just? James the Great? James the Less? Or James, the brother of Jude?



Yes, but where is James associated with that?



Certainly!

[/QUOTE]

Huh?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Prince_James: Medicine Woman:

True, yes. But even scholarly, non-Catholic, research suggests four or more authors, using at least two sources of information.

*************
M*W: I will not disagree with you here, because that is only one theory of the gospels.

Yet the God of the Israelites does not seem to be a sun God. He, in fact, seems to be a pety mountain war God, robbed from the Caananites, even down to his name. How then do your connect astrology there?

*************
M*W: Yes, it would seem that way. I cannot doubt the usual interpretation of the sun god, but I tell you truthfully, ancient Israel did, in fact, worship the sun god!

Also, you mentioned a "petty mountain war god." The symbolism of "mountains" and "pyramids" and the "tower of Babel," refers to the "higher power." The closer one of the ancients got to "heaven" (the skies), the closer they believed they were to god. This was the belief in many, many cultures around the earth at that time (the Incas, the Aztecs, the Chinese, the Egyptians, the Hebrews, and the Egyptians). Could they all be wrong???

PJ: But I am disturbed by...what seems to be new age references to Atlantis and Lemuria.

*************
M*W: Well, no website can verify every jpossible theory out there. I, personally, am not interested in "new age" phenomena. All it is is a new take on ancient philosophy. I believe there is a scholarly explanation for everything in the universe. I don't concur with some of the "new age" propaganda. It's really unfortunate that some ancient history is lumped with new age phenomena. I try to cipher it with what knowledge I have, so I can present it to you and the members of sciforums.

Also, I do not believe it has been shown genetically or historically, that the Irish populated Egypt. However, it is certain that the Egyptians were not Negroid and there is evidence that red headed people were in Egypt, specifically considering the fact that Set was the patron of red headed people.

*************
M*W: For the purposes of our debate, I do not consider the Irish Connection to be necessary. That is not to say that the Irish Connection is not real nor true nor valid nor credible. I also have Irish genetics.

PJ: Anyway, this website is, to say the least, a bit tainted by New Age thought. Have you anymore reliable astro-theology websites?

*************
M*W: I post the links I think will help you and the other christians to understand my point. I highly recommend the following:

http://jesusastrology.netfirms.com

http://jesusastrology.netfirms.com/astrology_bible_every_cx_needs_know.htm

http://jesusastrotheology.netfirms.com/restoring_keep_bible_interpret_/.htm

PJ: Although as someone of Irish descent, I can't say I mind hearing that my ancestors helped conquer the world!

*************
M*W: Nor mine, either! I think the whole world must have some Irish descent!

PJ: Well yes, whereas we can surely admit that you are right in that we do not know for sure, it is suggested by the majority of scholars, secular and religious both. Their gross inaccuracies and discrepancies, as well as there -being- four gospels, certainly speaks of this, also.

*************
M*W: There is no way I could convince you that atheism is the only way to go. That is not my objective. Embracing atheism requires someone to be learned, educated, probing, questioning, doubting, and so forth. The only way a person becomes atheist is when they realize that there are just too many discrepancies in christianity. Atheism is not something someone can be brainwashed in. It takes education and understanding to accept atheist thought. It doesn't happen over night. It may take decades to completely understand the truth. It's all about the truth.

PJ: But yes, certainly the New Testament proves itself to be the work of man, not of God.

*************
M*W: Of course, I agree.

PJ: The website is down/the link was copied wrong. Might you get me another?

*************
M*W: Of course, I will try to get you the correct website. I appreciate your calling this to my attention.

PJ: I do not think Lucifer in Greco-Roman beliefs ever had this quality of being "thrown out from Heaven". Indeed, he simply seems to be a personification of the morning star and nothing more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer#Roman_poetic_appellation

PJ: Just a quick nitpick: Astrology does not translate into "astro-logos" and "the word of God". It translates to "one who deals (logos) stars (astro)". Or perhaps "the word/reason of stars" (although this would be an inferior translation).

PJ: Yes, but interesting, January was not the original Roman new year. March was.

*************
M*W: That's debatable.

PJ: None of this seems to be refering to James. Also, there were four Jameses. Who are you speaking of? James the Just? James the Great? James the Less? Or James, the brother of Jude?

*************
M*W: I was referring to James, the brother of Jesus.[/QUOTE]

For more information, please see the following websites:

http://members.iinet.net.au/cindex/astsro.html

http://www.usbible.com/astrology/gospel_zodiac.htm

If you have any other questions that are not explained in the websites I have provided, please address your questions in a new post, and I will answer them the best I can.

~ Medicine*Woman

 

[Prince_James]

Medicine Woman:

M*W: Yes, it would seem that way. I cannot doubt the usual interpretation of the sun god, but I tell you truthfully, ancient Israel did, in fact, worship the sun god!

Also, you mentioned a "petty mountain war god." The symbolism of "mountains" and "pyramids" and the "tower of Babel," refers to the "higher power." The closer one of the ancients got to "heaven" (the skies), the closer they believed they were to god. This was the belief in many, many cultures around the earth at that time (the Incas, the Aztecs, the Chinese, the Egyptians, the Hebrews, and the Egyptians). Could they all be wrong???

Whereas there is certainly a link to the sky and the abode of God, this does not necessarily imply a relationship to the sun.

Also, note that it is claimed that Abraham rejected sun, moon, and star worship, in exchange for the "invisible creator of them al", as each was transient.

But yes, even if that is the case, it is quite clear that the God of the Jews is a retrofitted paganistic God.

M*W: Well, no website can verify every jpossible theory out there. I, personally, am not interested in "new age" phenomena. All it is is a new take on ancient philosophy. I believe there is a scholarly explanation for everything in the universe. I don't concur with some of the "new age" propaganda. It's really unfortunate that some ancient history is lumped with new age phenomena. I try to cipher it with what knowledge I have, so I can present it to you and the members of sciforums.

Understandable.

M*W: I post the links I think will help you and the other christians to understand my point. I highly recommend the following:

As you seem to think otherwise, I'd like to take this time to affirm that I'm not a Christian. I just do not think that the New Testament is as strongly astrological.

Also, http://jesusastrology.netfirms.com does not seem to exist.

M*W: Nor mine, either! I think the whole world must have some Irish descent!

Green beer for everyone!

“ PJ: Yes, but interesting, January was not the original Roman new year. March was. ”

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M*W: That's debatable.

Is it? It seems to be well affirmed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Calendar

http://members.iinet.net.au/cindex/astsro.html

Doesn't exist.

Quoting from the other site, though, I must say these few points are intriguing:

The three magi in (Matt. 2:1) symbolize the three stars forming a waist belt in the winter constellation of Orion.

This is interesting, as Orion rises in the East and the Wiseman came from there. However, why the usage of the Zoroastrian "magi"?

If the magi were on land, they couldn’t come from the east and follow a star from the east. But if both are in the sky, it makes sense.

-Very- intriguing, yes.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

*************
M*W: PJ, I will try to find those faulty links and correct them. However, I am having a problem with my computer. It will not bring up links, like the ones hyperlinked in some posts. I'm not sure what is causing this, but if I'm unable to locate those faulty websites to confirm them, we may just have to let them go. I have some other links that may work.

 

[w1z4rd]

Astrotheology and christianity having a tiff. Oh the irony.

For the record, there were around 32 Gospels, only 4 made it into the bible because the person who chose which Gospels to put into the Bible said there should only be four. To represent the four corners of the universe not "four seasons" as badly guessed here.

Medicine woman, ure just making stuff up now. *sigh*

Mormonism, scientology now this... its amazing what people will believe.

Ps, I am neither christian nor astrothingy.

 

[Prince_James]

Medicine Woman:

That sounds fine to me. Sorry that your computer is screwing up!

 

[Godless]

Medicine woman, ure just making stuff up now. *sigh*

No she's not making this shit up! you should educate yourself before maing an (!) of yourself!

http://paganizingfaithofyeshua.netfirms.com/astro_theology_sun_or_son_on_the_cross.htm

http://paganizingfaithofyeshua.netfirms.com/mithraism_astrotheology_similarity_cx.htm

http://www.consciousmedianetwork.com/members/acharya.htm

http://www.redicecreations.com/specialreports/jmaxwell.html

http://www.uuman.org/ed_christmyth.htm

This should help you get aquainted witht the subject matter!

 

[w1z4rd]

I think ure making a ! of yourself

Irenaeus was an important figure defending the four main Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John in the New Testament in 170, stating: "The heretics boast that they have many more gospels than there really are. But really they don't have any gospels that aren't full of blasphemy. There actually are only four authentic gospels. And this is obviously true because there are four corners of the universe and there are four principal winds, and therefore there can be only four gospels that are authentic. These, besides, are written by Jesus' true followers." [1] Irenaeus also addressed the topic in his Against Heresies:

But it is not possible that the Gospels can be either more or fewer in number than they are. For since there are four zones of the world in which we live, and four principal winds, while the church has been scattered throughout the world, and since the "pillar and ground" of the church is the Gospel and the spirit of life, it is fitting that she should have four pillars, breathing incorruption on every side, and vivifying human afresh. From this fact, it is evident that the Logos, the fashioner [demiourgos] of all, he that sits on the cherubim and holds all things together, when he was manifested to humanity, gave us the gospel under four forms but bound together by one spirit. (Against Heresies 3.11.8)

No seasons mentioned there. Just directions and winds. I was right about there being 32 Gospels as well.

Wiki Irenaeus

I am very well acquainted on the matter.

 

[Godless]

You claimed M*W made up astro-theology, I've proved to you she hadn't!

You made an (!) of yourself by claiming she's making shit up, when in light of presented evidence she has not! GOT IT?

 

[w1z4rd]

I was pointing out where she / astrotheology is wrong.

 

[Circe]

Medicine*Woman,

I don't believe the bible is as astrological as you say it is but I do think many old myths and stories may contain a hidden astrological meaning. For example, could a tale about the Fisher King and king Arthur be a cryptic reference to the constellation of Pisces and the Dippers (Ursa Major or Minor)? Anyway, you said somewhere that Avalon represents heaven. I don't see how, since its name means the land of apples and so your connection escapes me.

Speaking of apples, the Garden of the Hesperides was famous for its apples, but the word hesperidium is just another name for a citrus fruit. I wonder if that' s why van Eyck painted Eve holding not an apple but an etrog.

Circe

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Medicine*Woman,

I don't believe the bible is as astrological as you say it is but I do think many old myths and stories may contain a hidden astrological meaning. For example, could a tale about the Fisher King and king Arthur be a cryptic reference to the constellation of Pisces and the Dippers (Ursa Major or Minor)? Anyway, you said somewhere that Avalon represents heaven. I don't see how, since its name means the land of apples and so your connection escapes me.

*************
M*W: I think your analogy of the Fisher Kings and King Arthur is interesting. About Avalon, are you sure I mentioned that? I don't remember (but that's not unusual). I just don't think King Arthur was real, but represented in a constellation. The Round Table being Earth, and the Knights are the Constellations. The Grail is the Big Dipper, etc. It makes for a good myth.

Speaking of apples, the Garden of the Hesperides was famous for its apples, but the word hesperidium is just another name for a citrus fruit. I wonder if that' s why van Eyck painted Eve holding not an apple but an etrog.

*************
M*W: Interesting analogy on apples. It really wasn't an apple in the story of A&E. It had to be a fig, quince or pomegranate. I've seen the painting you mentioned, but what is an "etrog?" Some noted artist painted a woman (thought to be MM) holding a ferret or something whose symbolism was something which I now forget. I'm sure you're familiar with the painting. I just love to decipher all those secret symbolic treatments in Renaissance art!