Astro-theological interpretation of being "born again."

[Medicine*Woman]

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M*W: As you all know, astro-theology is the subject I research. The question of being "born again" came up in a conversation, and I was asked what my interpretation of being "born again" was. After giving it some thought, I came up with the following interpretation:

The sun rises each morning at dawn and sets each evening at dusk. The early morning sun has been referred to by astro-theologists as the "birth of the sun." At 12:00 Noon, the sun is referred to as the "adult sun." Then when the sun begins to set, the sun is known as the "dying sun (son)." So, each day the sun is "born," it "lives," and it "dies" at night.

Even before christianity became a religion, people believed in the creator god, the Sun, who created the universe, creates and sustains life, and leads us out of the darkness (night). The dualism of good and evil came about from the believe in the sun as good and the moon as evil. Light was good, and darkness was evil. Ancient humans feared the darkness, so they made the implication that darkness was evil.

As christianity came about, especially among the Romans who believed in sky gods, planets, stars, constellations and such, only the names were changed. The creator sun became the creator god who was good. Later on, the sun had a "son" who was the savior of the Earth. Some scholars agree that Venus rises with the Sun. Venus is also a reference to Lucifer, the morningstar. Jesus was also called the morningstar. The Morningstar rose with the Sun. The story goes that the Morningstar (Lucifer) rebelled against god (the Sun). In that respect, Venus might have been eclipsing the Sun, and it was written as the rebellion story. Lucifer, (Venus) rebelled against god (the Sun) and many angels (stars) in the sky followed in Lucifer's (Venus's) rebellion. None of this occurred as a human rebellion. They were only stars and planets that may have appeared to fall as in meteors. Again, it could just be nothing more than a story told by ancient humans. Lucifer was not an Earthly being, just a sky being. Lucifer means "lucent" or light-bringer. Now for sure the Earth can't have two light bringers, the Sun AND Lucifer/Venus, so one of them had to fall, right? That's how the story goes. It's all myth. It's always been myth, but christians believe it as reality.

The christians came along and the Sun became god. Jesus became the son of the sun. God's sun Jesus died, was put into the womb (or behind) the darkness of the Earth, and rose again.

Everyday the sun rises, god is reborn. Everyday the sun rises, humans are born again. It's a cycle. We are born with the sun, we live during the sunlight, we retire when sunset comes, we sleep in the night as in death, and with the morning sunrise, we are born all over again.

Any comments?

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

A child is born without an ego, the ego is then created by our brain to survive in society.
To be born again is to be in the same state of awareness as when you were born, but consciously.

 

[grover]

I agree with wisdom-seeker.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

I agree with wisdom-seeker.

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M*W: That's fine and good you agree with W-S, but I was not talking about the ego in this thread. That's from another thread. Did you have a comment about this thread? If so, I'd like to hear it.

 

[grover]

MW, being born again is seeing through the illusion of ego. Its the same in eastern and western religions just different terminology. In the west ego death is called born-again. (Note: many so-called "born again" christians have no idea that the phrase "born again" refers to an actual psychological event- i.e., just because you say you are born again doenst mean you are). So, I dont agree that born again can be reduced to astrotheology. But, I do agree that there are many things in the bible that are related to astrology.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

MW, being born again is seeing through the illusion of ego. Its the same in eastern and western religions just different terminology. In the west ego death is called born-again. (Note: many so-called "born again" christians have no idea that the phrase "born again" refers to an actual psychological event-i.e., just because you say you are born again doenst mean you are). So, I dont agree that born again can be reduced to astrotheology. But, I do agree that there are many things in the bible that are related to astrology.

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M*W: I assume you are speaking of the christian belief in being born again. Still, I don't equate it to be anything about the ego. I am uncomfortable with your belief in "reducing" it to astro-theology, because astro-theological explanations come before any other interpretation of the bible. I understand that christians don't understand that. I guess that's why I keep writing about astro-theology! The Sun was in the universe long before human beings believed it was the creator of all. Then later human beings believed the Sun to be god... and then they believed it to be the sun of god. It all is about man-made understanding of mythological concepts. If ancient humans hadn't feared the darkness, they would never have created the idea that the sun was god.

The point I try to make when I explain astro-theology is that all religion is man-made myth. None of it is real.

 

[grover]

M*W: I assume you are speaking of the christian belief in being born again. Still, I don't equate it to be anything about the ego.

Just your opinion.

I am uncomfortable with your belief in "reducing" it to astro-theology, because astro-theological explanations come before any other interpretation of the bible.

There are some things in the bible that appear to be references to older astrological meanings. When you start finding ways of turning everything in christianity to astrology you are "reducing it to astrotheology."

I understand that christians don't understand that. I guess that's why I keep writing about astro-theology! The Sun was in the universe long before human beings believed it was the creator of all. Then later human beings believed the Sun to be god... and then they believed it to be the sun of god. It all is about man-made understanding of mythological concepts. If ancient humans hadn't feared the darkness, they would never have created the idea that the sun was god.

Then how do you explain that they thought of stars as gods since stars come out at night? Clearly there is more at stake here than a simplistic fear of the dark.

The point I try to make when I explain astro-theology is that all religion is man-made myth. None of it is real.

That is just your opinion backed up by nothing. The simple fact of the matter is that there are religions that have as there primary aim the elimination of ego. This is most explicit in buddhism. So I don't really see how you can just reduce buddhism to man-made myth. Ego-denial can be seen in Christianity too - for example when Paul converted to Christianity he said "not me but Christ in me." It is very easy for me to see in this phrase a denial of ego which parallels buddhism (i.e, one must see past the illusion of ego to realize the true buddha-nature of self), it is much more difficult for me to interpret this as meaning that Paul was referring to the Sun being in him. And even if you can concoct some astrological interpretation for this event you would still have to explain why there are apparent parallels between Christianity and Buddhism even though Buddhism is not myth-based and Eastern cultures have a different astrological system than western ones. Occam's razor.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Just your opinion.

There are some things in the bible that appear to be references to older astrological meanings. When you start finding ways of turning everything in christianity to astrology you are "reducing it to astrotheology."

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M*W: Christianity is based on sun worship. That's a fact. It is not my opinion. Books have been written by scholarly researchers, and I have listed those sources.

Then how do you explain that they thought of stars as gods since stars come out at night? Clearly there is more at stake here than a simplistic fear of the dark.

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M*W: You need to do some reading in human anthropology.

The simple fact of the matter is that there are religions that have as there primary aim the elimination of ego. This is most explicit in buddhism. So I don't really see how you can just reduce buddhism to man-made myth.

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M*W: Again, I am NOT talking about the ego. If I were going to talk about the ego, it would be an entirely different discussion in another sub-forum, not this one.

I have not studied Buddhism. I understand there are parallels, but I cannot comment on Buddhism at this time, therefore, I have NOT reduced Buddhism to a man made myth. I don't know enough about it to make that opinion.

You are making assumptions for some reason that I am talking about Buddhism and the ego, and I'm not.

Ego-denial can be seen in Christianity too - for example when Paul converted to Christianity he said "not me but Christ in me." It is very easy for me to see in this phrase a denial of ego which parallels buddhism (i.e, one must see past the illusion of ego to realize the true buddha-nature of self), it is much more difficult for me to interpret this as meaning that Paul was referring to the Sun being in him. And even if you can concoct some astrological interpretation for this event you would still have to explain why there are apparent parallels between Christianity and Buddhism even though Buddhism is not myth-based and Eastern cultures have a different astrological system than western ones. Occam's razor.

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M*W: I agree that christianity aims to control the ego of its adherents, but again, this thread is about the original interpretation of being "born again" and what it means astro-theologically. If you want to discuss Buddhism and the ego, put it under another thread.

 

[Grantywanty]

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Then how do you explain that they thought of stars as gods since stars come out at night? Clearly there is more at stake here than a simplistic fear of the dark. ”

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M*W: You need to do some reading in human anthropology.

By this you mean books that agree with your assumptions that ideas of Gods, goddesses, etc are projections based on needs to assuage fears.

You can see what a useless response yours was above. I could say, you need to read books by Native American Religiuos leaders, for example, who do not agree with you.

Or people who have recall of past lives, for whom born again has other connotations.

 

[grover]

M*W: Christianity is based on sun worship. That's a fact. It is not my opinion. Books have been written by scholarly researchers, and I have listed those sources.

Christianity is not based on Sun worship. Christianity has elements of older fertility cults built into which is where the astrological/sun worship stuff comes from. These older fertility cults also used psychedelic drugs as part of their ritual which is why one can make a very strong argument that Christ is actually a reference to Psychedelic mushrooms. Which is why to this day you eat his "flesh and blood" as a ritual. Of course these days people eat crackers and grape juice instead of the authentic article - little wonder that most Christians are clueless as to what an actual revelation is. One can also make a convincing claim that Santa Claus is also a reference to Psychedelic Mushrooms derived from related to Aminita Muscaria - do a google image and you'll see that this mushroom is red and white and when people eat powerful mushrooms like these or DMT they often report being in communication with elf-like creatures - just a coincidence that Sant a Clause worked with elves.
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So the simple fact MW is that, yes, there are elements of astrotheology in CHristianinty. These astrotheologicval elements are derived from older fertility cults. However, these older fertility cults weren't solely interested in astrology so you can find many other references to other things from these cults in Christianity - I have given an example of psychedelices. Bottom line: There are astrological elements but you can't reduce all of Christianity to astrotheology.

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M*W: Again, I am NOT talking about the ego. If I were going to talk about the ego, it would be an entirely different discussion in another sub-forum, not this one.

I have not studied Buddhism. I understand there are parallels, but I cannot comment on Buddhism at this time, therefore, I have NOT reduced Buddhism to a man made myth. I don't know enough about it to make that opinion.

You are making assumptions for some reason that I am talking about Buddhism and the ego, and I'm not.

No, I'm not making assumptions. I'm explaining what I think the correct interpretation of the term "born-again" means. I think it means excaltly what wisdom seeker said.

M*W: I agree that christianity aims to control the ego of its adherents, but again, this thread is about the original interpretation of being "born again" and what it means astro-theologically. If you want to discuss Buddhism and the ego, put it under another thread.

I don't think the term has anything to do with astrotheology. I think it has to do with ego-death.

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

Hello folks,
Although it is kind of obvious that the Sun was among the first objects of worship in primitive cultures, by around 2000 B.C. they had a quite advanced knowledge of astronomy to tell that the Sun was just another star of the whole bunch. Not possibly the Universal Primal God.

Zarathustra taught something similar to Sun worship, but that was not the case. He came talking about how God works through light, and fire. Being fire the tool for God to transform matter, and make it evolve.
If you can tell, fire is the spinal cord of alchemy, of the science of transmutation of matter, of energy. The Sun made it possible for life in the planet to evolve and transform.

This is just another manifestation of the energy of the Most High. God works through the Sun, through fire, in order to transform energy and matter.

This should have similar consequences in all the stars of the Universe, the emerging of life, of energy in movement, and ultimately, matter fusion with conscience.

And humans are just manifestations of the same energy, who can actually aid the light (creation), or aid the darkness (destruction).

Zarathustra put is quite simply: You either choose the Good Mentality or the Bad Mentality.

To be born again on the other hand, refers to the concept explained by Jesus to Nicodemus:

“Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."
In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." (John 3:1-8)

So beautiful words, such strength, such poetry… And yet Jesus was telling these words to a man who came at night, because he was afraid other Pharisees would see him hanging out with Jesus, with their “enemy”. Jesus was telling these words to a hypocrite, who knows what happened to this Nicodemus? We cannot be certain; there was certainly an effort to delete this character from history.
Either way, Jesus was saying such true and beautiful words that can only be understand by true seekers… So others will “Have eyes but shall not see, and ears but shall not hear”.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

By this you mean books that agree with your assumptions that ideas of Gods, goddesses, etc are projections based on needs to assuage fears.

You can see what a useless response yours was above. I could say, you need to read books by Native American Religiuos leaders, for example, who do not agree with you.

Or people who have recall of past lives, for whom born again has other connotations.

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M*W: I wasn't speaking of reincarnation in my post. I am familiar with what that is as well as passed life regression.

My opinions did not arise about this subject until AFTER I read the scholarly research. Then I formed my opinions about astro-theology.

I believe that Christianity is a fear-based religion. I never referred to gods, goddesses and such as being fear-based entities.

However, you are missing the point. This thread is about the astro-theological interpretation of being "re-born." It's not about reincarnation, resurrection, everlasting life, Buddhism or the ego.

What I "assumed" was that you people would have an inkling as to references of astro-theological interpretation of what being "born again" might have meant. Guess not.

 

[grover]

However, you are missing the point. This thread is about the astro-theological interpretation of being "re-born." It's not about reincarnation, resurrection, everlasting life, Buddhism or the ego.

No we get the point. We just disagree. What you are trying to do is impose a meaning onto the term which I don't think is there.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

No we get the point. We just disagree. What you are trying to do is impose a meaning onto the term which I don't think is there.

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M*W: I don't think you do understand astro-theological interpretation, but that is why I keep expounding on this subject. You stated what I am doing is "reducing christianity to an astro-theological interpretation," and that is true, but it may become more understandable if I would say that I am "reducing christianity to a myth." That's where the real meaning of christianity (and all man-made religions) begin and end.

 

[grover]

M*W: I don't think you do understand astro-theological interpretation, but that is why I keep expounding on this subject.

Um, medicine women- what you did was draw a comparison between the sun going down being equivalent to dying and it rising being equivalent to being reborn. Hmmm, I don't have a PH.d or anything fancy like that but I think I get what your driving at here.

You stated what I am doing is "reducing christianity to an astro-theological interpretation," and that is true, but it may become more understandable if I would say that I am "reducing christianity to a myth." That's where the real meaning of christianity (and all man-made religions) begin and end.

But before you said that you dont know about buddhism and thefore cant reduce it to a man made myth. So maybe you shouldnt contradict yourself here and say that all religions can be reduced to man made myths. Also, insofar as there are parallels between christianity and buddhism it might be incorrect to reduce all of christianity to a man-made myth - are you going to reduce all of Christ's words to an astrological interpretation. Does "love thy neighbor as thyself" have an astrological meaning. I doubt it. It does have pretty clear paralles to buddhism though.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Um, medicine women-what you did was draw a comparison between the sun going down being equivalent to dying and it rising being equivalent to being reborn. Hmmm, I don't have a PH.d or anything fancy like that but I think I get what your driving at here.

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M*W: That was exactly what the analogy was meant to be. That is the astro-theological interpretation.

But before you said that you dont know about buddhism and thefore cant reduce it to a man made myth.

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M*W: I don't know about Buddhism nor how it got started. Is it a man-made religion? I've also heard that it isn't a religion but a way of life. As I've stated before, I don't study Buddhism, so I cannot comment about it.

So maybe you shouldnt contradict yourself here and say that all religions can be reduced to man made myths.

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M*W: So is Buddhism a religion or not?

Also, insofar as there are parallels between christianity and buddhism it might be incorrect to reduce all of christianity to a man-made myth

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M*W: So, there may be parallels between christianity and buddhism, just as there are parallels between Islam and Judaism, just as there are parallels between christianity Star Wars. Parallels between christianity and buddhism aren't exclusive. All of the man-made gods come from solar/lunar deities. All of the man-made religions come from solar/lunar worship. All man-made religions can be reduced to astro-theological myth.

are you going to reduce all of Christ's words to an astrological interpretation. Does "love thy neighbor as thyself" have an astrological meaning. I doubt it. It does have pretty clear paralles to buddhism though.

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M*W: Everything Jesus allegedly said as well as all those who said things about Jesus can be reduced to myth, because he didn't exist. The sun is a metaphor for god. The sun is also a metaphor for Jesus, the son of the sun. Venus is a metaphor for Lucifer who rises with the sun and, sometimes rises in front of the sun which was explained by ancient humans that this eclipse was a sign of Lucifer's rebellion. Jupiter is a metaphor for Peter, the Jew, the first leader of the RCC the "universal holy" or "catholic" church which is a metaphor for our solar system. Therefore, christianity is fully, truly and significantly based on astro-theological myth.

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

M*W, are you aware of what you are saying there? Reducing all religions to astro-theology is the worst religion I have ever seen.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

M*W, are you aware of what you are saying there? Reducing all religions to astro-theology is the worst religion I have ever seen.

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M*W: Astro-theology is not a religion. It's an interpretation of ancient myth.

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

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M*W: Astro-theology is not a religion. It's an interpretation of ancient myth.

It seems to me you are defending your "irrefutable truth". It is your belief M*W, and if you think about it, you are holding on to it, just like Christians hold on to their beliefs.

 

[grover]

M*W: That was exactly what the analogy was meant to be. That is the astro-theological interpretation.

So, in other words I did understand the astro-theological interpretation.

M*W: I don't know about Buddhism nor how it got started. Is it a man-made religion? I've also heard that it isn't a religion but a way of life. As I've stated before, I don't study Buddhism, so I cannot comment about it.

Yes, it is a man-made religion. If you don't know about it then stopping making sweeping statements that "all religions are this, and all religions are that."

M*W: So is Buddhism a religion or not?

Yes, it is a religion. A principle difference between buddhism and other religions is that people are not asked to believe things they cant verify for themselves.

M*W: So, there may be parallels between christianity and buddhism, just as there are parallels between Islam and Judaism, just as there are parallels between christianity Star Wars.

You can add parallels between Christianity and astrology to that list too.

All of the man-made gods come from solar/lunar deities.

Does this include Hindu gods?

All of the man-made religions come from solar/lunar worship.

No, they don't. You are not an expert on all religions so stop making this broad generalization.

All man-made religions can be reduced to astro-theological myth.

No, they can't. You are not an expert on all religions so stop making this broad generalization.

M*W: Everything Jesus allegedly said as well as all those who said things about Jesus can be reduced to myth, because he didn't exist.

That is very difficult to prove. You are just stating your bleiefs with absolute certainty. Pretty garden-variety fundamentalism really.

The sun is a metaphor for god. The sun is also a metaphor for Jesus, the son of the sun. Venus is a metaphor for Lucifer who rises with the sun and, sometimes rises in front of the sun which was explained by ancient humans that this eclipse was a sign of Lucifer's rebellion. Jupiter is a metaphor for Peter, the Jew, the first leader of the RCC the "universal holy" or "catholic" church which is a metaphor for our solar system. Therefore, christianity is fully, truly and significantly based on astro-theological myth.

Its possible that some of that is coincidence. Its also possible that some elements form other religions found their way into Christianity(for instance if you look at some south American tribes that adopted christinaity there christianity is really a blend of their older religion with christianity) - that doesn't mean that all Christianity can be reduced to astrotheology.
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Bottom line: There are elements of astrology in christianity. There are also elements of Judaism in christianity. There also other elements from other fertility cults in christianity. So it is kind of simplistic to say that all of it is just astrotheology.