Aryans: Religion and Genetics

Lightgigantic:

I'd have you reference non-Hindu nationalist based research if you might. Not to discredit ISKON on other levels, but they do not have scholarly respect in terms of history or anthropology.

Its actually a communications journal which draws from a wide cross section of scholars, theistic practioners (xtians too) and of course academically trained devotees

- Sam provided the essentials for the Aryan history link (it also comes with a valuable bibliography too) - the first indologist article is made up of almost entirely of historical footnoted quotes placed together in a chronological format - its not a theistic rant if thats what you are worried about - either way I don't see why being a practioner disqualifies one from entering into the discussion, particularly amongst such scholarly respectable authorities on sci forums (If you think the articles are fallacious just work with the footnotes and come to your own conclusions about how liberal the europeans were in their treatment of native indian culture and tradition)
 
ALso, I'd like to point out that the notion that Europeans are inherently anti-Eastern in their research at the time is fallacious. Many Europeans during the Enlightenment and well into the 19th century, took Eastern (Indian as well as Oriental) beliefs as extremely valuable and not at all dependent upon Western things. Confucius, for instance, was extremely well respected for a period.


The claims for bias are well known:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indology

Claims of Bias in South Asian Studies have often been made. Such real or perceived bias can imply old-fashioned and prejudiced outsider interpretations of Eastern cultures and peoples:

* Biased interpretation of Indian history. For example James Mill's History of India downplays Indian history.[1]
* One-sided, unfair, exaggerated or exclusively negative presentation of some aspects of Hinduism or Indian culture. For example exaggerations or misrepresentations about Hindu theology, misrepresentations about the status of women in Hinduism, etc.
* Claims that the Indological scholarship of Indians themselves is not scientific or that it is motivated by political motives, i.e. by Marxist, nationalist, Hindu, Muslim, Dravidian separatist or other motives.
* Claims that India has not produced any worthwhile literature.[2] Claims that Indian languages are not scholarly languages (e.g. the linguist Michael Witzel wrote about the Indian Talageri that he "cannot read any scholarly language besides English").[3]

Historians have noted that during the British Empire "evangelical influence drove British policy down a path that tended to minimize and denigrate the accomplishments of Indian civilization and to position itself as the negation of the earlier British Indomania that was nourished by belief in Indian wisdom."[4]

In Charles Grant highly influential "Observations on the ...Asiatic subjects of Great Britain" (1796),[5] Grant criticized the Orientalists for being too respectful to Indian culture and religion. His work tried to determine the Hindu's "true place in the moral scale", and he alleged that the Hindus are "a people exceedingly depraved".

Lord Macaulay, who introduced English education into India, claimed: "I have never found one among them who could deny that a single shelf of a good European library was worth the whole native literature of India and Arabia." [6] He wrote that Arabic and Sanskrit works on medecine contain "medical doctrines which would disgrace an English Farrier - Astronomy, which would move laughter in girls at an English boarding school - History, abounding with kings thirty feet high, and reigns thirty thousand years long - and Geography made up of seas of treacle and seas of butter".[7] He advocated to create a middle Anglicised class that was "Indian in blood and colour, but English in taste, in opinions, in morals, and in intellect".[8] This class of anglicized Indians would then in turn anglicize the Indian people.

One of the most influential historians of India during the British Empire, James Mill was criticized for being prejudiced against Hindus. His work "History of British India" (1817) may be the "single most important source of British Indophobia and hostility to Orientalism".[9] The Indologist H.H. Wilson wrote that the tendency of Mill's work is "evil".[10] Mill claimed that both Indians and Chinese people are cowardly, unfeeling and mendacious. Both Mill and Grant attacked Orientalist scholarship that was too respectful of Indian culture: "It was unfortunate that a mind so pure, so warm in the pursuit of truth, and so devoted to oriental learning, as that of Sir William Jones, should have adopted the hypothesis of a high state of civilization in the principal countries of Asia."[11] Karl Marx's writings were also prejudiced against Indians. [2]

However, the Indologists were also often under pressure from missionary and colonial interest groups, and were frequently criticized by them.

What do you think of the concept of "The White Man's Burden"?
http://www.sulekha.com/blogs/blogdisplay.aspx?cid=4375

Consider the following quotes from prominent scholars of inter-civilization studies:

Eurocentrism is the colonizer's model of the world in a very literal sense: it is not merely a set of beliefs, a bundle of beliefs. It has evolved, through time, into a very finely sculpted model, a structured whole; in fact a single theory; in fact a super theory, a general framework for many smaller theories, historical, geographical, psychological, sociological, and philosophical. -- J.M. Blaut [1]

The conquistador exerted his power by denying the Other his dignity, by reducing the Indian to the Same, and by compelling the Indian to become his docile, oppressed instrument. The conquest practically affirms the conquering ego and negates the Other as Other… [A]fter the innocent Other's victimization, the myth of modernity declares the Other the culpable cause of that victimization and absolves the modern subject of any guilt for the victimizing act… Finally, the suffering of the conquered and colonized people appears as a necessary sacrifice and the inevitable price of modernization… Modernity justifies the Other's suffering because it [allegedly] saves many innocent victims from the barbarity of these cultures… The myth of modernity perpetrates a gigantic inversion: the innocent victim becomes culpable and the culpable victimizer becomes innocent. -- Enrique Dussel [2]

Notice, in particular, how academic scholarship in the humanities, far from being considered objective, is viewed as a central culprit, even today:

[T]he history which [the colonial scholar] writes is not the history of the country which he plunders but the history of his own nation in regard to all that she skims off, all that she violates and starves. -- Frantz Fanon [3]

…[T]he game is still going on, when 'otherness' of the other is used to legitimize the oppression and subjugation… The tensions and anxieties that we bear as members of distinct groups are now to be seen in their interconnectedness… It is indeed difficult to fight a battle whose goal is not to defeat anyone but rather that nobody is defeated. The battle is to be waged against a system that produces the oppressors and the oppressed, the exploiters and the exploited, the winners and the losers, cutting across race, gender, nationality or any other form of collectivity… The "institutionalization of universities into departmental structures" plays an important role in the cultural life of the West. This is precisely why when these departments do not represent the intellectual traditions of the East, they are not simply silent but they are helping to perpetuate the image of a mythical, mysterious, non-rational East. -- Anindita Niyogi Balslev [4]

Focusing specifically on the misrepresentation of India, I found a wealth of research material. For instance, Wilhelm Halbfass, the Indologist at U-Penn (who unfortunately passed away a year ago) wrote:

“In the modern planetary situation Eastern and Western 'cultures' can no longer meet one another as equal partners. They meet in a westernized world, under conditions shaped by western ways of thinking.” [5]

Colonizers heavily sponsored scholars to research and represent their colonized subjects. For instance, the British Census of India was one such process to represent India in British categories, while superficially pretending to use Indian categories. This became the basis for re-engineering India's society to fit into rigid 'castes', a representation that has continued after independence and has become the center of India's politics today. The 'essentializing' of caste in the representation means that it is deemed an inherent and unchangeable quality that Hindus are frozen into forever. (Traditionally, jatis and varnas were independent of one another, and had mobility.) The more flexible language of describing certain communities as socially underprivileged, and implementing affirmative action programs strictly based on economic means, would have de-essentialized the jati, and over a period of time reduced its significance. 'Dalit' as a category by birth is self-perpetuating, unproductive and divisive, and the consequence of adopting a colonial representation system.

A representation system is a meta-ideology, providing the implicit frame of reference of the discourse, and acts as the subliminal playing field on which specific scholarship unfolds. The power of representation was explained very emphatically by Friedreich Nietzsche:

“The reputation, name, and appearance, the usual measure and weight of a thing, what it counts for -- originally almost always wrong and arbitrary -- grows from generation unto generation, merely because people believe in it, until it gradually grows to be a part of the thing and turns into its very body. What at first was appearance becomes in the end, almost invariably, the essence and is effective as such.”

Huston Smith, one of the leaders of the western academy for religious studies, recently described Freudian psychoanalysis of Hindu saints, now a popular academic movement, as “colonialism updated.” [6]

Gandhi's innovation in reversing the massively asymmetric power that the British enjoyed was based on two profound insights: (1) The British self-identity was built on the deeply rooted belief that the British were highly civilized (and hence the White Man's Burden to go around civilizing others.) (2) The British depended upon the Indians as consumers, having appropriated India's centuries of supremacy in textiles and steel exports, and reduced Indians to poor consumers. On #1, Gandhi continually challenged them by taking the moral high ground, compelling them to respond as civilized people, which they could not refuse to do, until the moral standard he set became too high for the British and their system imploded. On #2, he initiated successful consumer boycotts and indigenous production.

Learning from #1: When asked what he thought of British civilization, Gandhi is said to have replied, "That would be a good idea." I would have to give the same assessment of western objective scholarship. Being seen as objective is to the academicians of Indic traditions what being civilized was to the British. Hence, by compelling them to be objective -- in receiving criticism, in acknowledging falsities that they have perpetuated, in re-examining the asymmetries -- we have our best chance to change the very system of objective scholarship that they control.
 
There's also another article called State and Society in Ancient India by Hrdayananda Dasa Gosvami (He is a sanskrit translator with a PHD in Philosophy and Religion from UCLA) on
http://www.iskcon.com/icj/3_1/hdg.html

he takes a scholars attempt to reconstruct ancient vedic society from part of the vedas , revealing the nature of bias and misinformation prevelant in such circles (this article deals more with academic bias as opposed to the social and cultural bias of "the first indologists" essay)

Rau gives a standard introduction to the 'Aryan colonisation of North India', and rather than focus on the well-known details of that theory, we shall examine some curious aspects of his methodology. It seems that Rau consistently imagines what life must have been like in olden times, and then brings in quotations (which only vaguely or indirectly speak to the point) as confirmation of his view. For example: ' . the different (migrating Aryan) tribes had to defend their land not only against the attacks of the indigenous population that was leaving towards the East, but also against their own kind attacking and following in their footsteps (from the west).' In defence of this, he cites the Sata-patha-brahmana (6,7,3,5): 'If one is actually victorious only with the opposite side, then the land that he has conquered will be settled by others. Whoever, on the other hand, is victorious on both sides is unhampered there.'

Here we have a case in which a simple statement of military commonsense, namely that one must secure one's border on both sides, has been mobilised as a demonstration of presumed historical events and social-political realities: namely that later bands of migrating Aryans attacked and raided the land-holdings seized by previous bands of marauding migratory.
 
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A response to some of the points there:

http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00000890&channel=university+ave

I'll also put forth the "softer" theory of the two Aryan theories (migration v. invasion) and some of what it suggests on the table:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_migration

I'd also like to point to two key things:

Sanskrit is an Indo-European language.

Indo-European languages, according to all scholarly research, do not originate in India.

Although slightly inconclusive to the exact homeland, research here does not consider India seriously: http://indoeuro.bizland.com/archive/article14.html

Consider both the Kurgan and Anatolian theories: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_hypothesis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_hypothesis
 
A response to some of the points there:

http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00000890&channel=university+ave

I'll also put forth the "softer" theory of the two Aryan theories (migration v. invasion) and some of what it suggests on the table:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_migration

I'd also like to point to two key things:

Sanskrit is an Indo-European language.

Indo-European languages, according to all scholarly research, do not originate in India.

Although slightly inconclusive to the exact homeland, research here does not consider India seriously: http://indoeuro.bizland.com/archive/article14.html

Consider both the Kurgan and Anatolian theories: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_hypothesis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_hypothesis

Could you highlight the main points? Its too much to read whole pages of links.

And who decided that Sanskrit is not of Indian origin? :)

That's not what the Vedas say.

http://www.vedic-academy.com/sanskrit/about_sanskrit.htm
The name Sanskrit means “joined together, arranged, decorated”. This hints at Sanskrit's grammar being exactly regulated. According to the academic opinion, the today still existing “classical Sanskrit” came about from the old Indian vernacular languages, the so-called prakrita dialects. They were sorted and structured by the grammarians. Prior to that, the so-called “Vedic Sanskrit” existed, the language of the four original Vedas (Rg-, Sama-, Yajur- and Atharva-veda) which were composed about 1000 BC. Thus, the academic circles date the age of Sanskrit at approx. 2500 years and see it as a “synthetic” language, composed from vernacular dialects.

The Vedic tradition promotes a different image of itself and the origin of the Sanskrit language — an image which is though graded as purely mythological by the indologists. Yet, we want to produce that version, since it is to be found in numerous Vedic scriptures, starting with the Bhagavata-purana, the most important Purana — and since it correspondents no less to the actual empiric presentation of evidence than the academic opinion.

According to this version, right at the beginning of the material creation the Vedic wisdom was spoken by Lord Vishnu (God in his creating aspect) directly to Lord Brahma, the creator of this universe. Brahma himself systematically passed this knowledge on to his descendants, thereby creating the Vedas. This original language of the Vedas was then adopted by the devas, the higher subtle living beings which are entrusted with the administration of the universe. Thus, it was called deva-nagari, the language of the devas. It is the original language of the universe.

The Vedic tradition informs us that human beings in former ages were physically and intellectually by far more able than nowadays. Knowledge was passed on by oral reception since the disciples were able to remember everything by hearing it once. Thus, no writing was necessary. But at the dawn of the present age — the kali-yuga, or “age of quarrel” — human mankind degraded more and more and gradually lost all good qualities. The duration of life decreased, and with the loss of the keen remembrance the traditional system of acquiring knowledge ceased to be applicable. In order to prevent its decay, the Vedic wisdom had to be conserved in written form. This happened about 5000 years ago by the divine incarnation Shrila Vyasadeva. He compiled the presently existing Vedic literature, namely the four Vedas, the Upanishads, the Puranas and the Mahabharata. Thus, he created no new knowledge but rather tried to preserve the original wisdom of human mankind for the oncoming generations.

At that time, devanagari was the language of the whole civilized population of the earth. But due to lack of training and careless pronunciation, the uneducated people began to develop numerous dialects. Before, such lingual alienation had been carefully avoided since it was well-known that the material and spiritual power of the language greatly depends on its purity. Now, however, various dialects came up which, after gradually deviating from the original language, could not be called devanagari anymore. New languages, called prakrita, came forth.

With the further progress of kali-yuga, these prakrita dialects spread more and more, up to the grade of dominating the original pure language. Finally, they were adopted even by the educated circles. The sages and scholars of that time became alarmed. Together with its language, they foresaw the dying-out of the root of Vedic culture. Thus, they invested enormous time and effort to design a standardized grammar, with the aim of preserving the devanagari language in its original purity. Although unnecessary before, this measure seemed to be the only means of counteracting the increasing cultural, intellectual and spiritual decay of the society.

The most successful, hence most prominent amongst these grammarians was Panini. His grammar, surpassing all others in tightness and precision, became the standard and remained so undisputedly until today. Panini was able to joint the original devanagari language into an exact framework of rules, thus preserving it for the posterity. Since his time, this language is called Sanskrit, “joined together, refined”.

Thus, according to the Vedic version Sanskrit is not the result of the prakrita languages; rather, they in opposite have developed from the original Sanskrit language, called devanagari. The present-day Sanskrit is nothing more than the successful attempt to conserve the original language and to prevent its further alienation. And the development of scriptural record is not at all considered as a progress of human civilization — rather, it is a symptom of the increasing degradation of human qualities.

Following this tradition, Sanskrit is the original language of the Vedas.
 
I should also point out, in regards to the "anti-Indian bias", that during the period that Britain subjugated India that, quite litterally, Europe was leaps and bounds ahead of her. That to claim such things as European science was superior to Indian science during the period, is completely and utterly justifiable.

Also, the following is completely justifiable, when we have theories of prehistoric Indian atomic bombs wielded by the Gods considered as serious:

"Claims that the Indological scholarship of Indians themselves is not scientific or that it is motivated by political motives, i.e. by Marxist, nationalist, Hindu, Muslim, Dravidian separatist or other motives."
 
Samcdkey:

I implied something I had not meant to there. What I meant is that Sanskrit did not -derive- from an Indian language. That is to say, the language(s) that Sanskrit came from, show no signs of being based in India, but based in the general proto-Indo-European.

I shall also give you a summary in a second of the links given.
 
Samcdkey:

I implied something I had not meant to there. What I meant is that Sanskrit did not -derive- from an Indian language. That is to say, the language(s) that Sanskrit came from, show no signs of being based in India, but based in the general proto-Indo-European.

I shall also give you a summary in a second of the links given.

See my edit. :)
 
A response to some of the points there:

http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00000890&channel=university+ave

I'll also put forth the "softer" theory of the two Aryan theories (migration v. invasion) and some of what it suggests on the table:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_migration

I'd also like to point to two key things:

Sanskrit is an Indo-European language.

Indo-European languages, according to all scholarly research, do not originate in India.

Although slightly inconclusive to the exact homeland, research here does not consider India seriously: http://indoeuro.bizland.com/archive/article14.html

Consider both the Kurgan and Anatolian theories: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_hypothesis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_hypothesis

All such ideas about the origins of sanskrit coming from outside india are dependant on the vallidity of the Aryan Invasion theory - in other words you cannot use academic evidence of sanskrit coming from outside of India as evidence of the aryan invasion - on the contrary you have to use evidence of the aryan invasion to determine that sanskrit originated outside of india
 
I should also point out, in regards to the "anti-Indian bias", that during the period that Britain subjugated India that, quite litterally, Europe was leaps and bounds ahead of her. That to claim such things as European science was superior to Indian science during the period, is completely and utterly justifiable.

Also, the following is completely justifiable, when we have theories of prehistoric Indian atomic bombs wielded by the Gods considered as serious:

"Claims that the Indological scholarship of Indians themselves is not scientific or that it is motivated by political motives, i.e. by Marxist, nationalist, Hindu, Muslim, Dravidian separatist or other motives."

You do realise that the "leaps and bounds" were based on exploitation of the resources of the colonies by force?

And do you agree that with the prominent indologists that "the Hindus are "a people exceedingly depraved""?
 
I should also point out, in regards to the "anti-Indian bias", that during the period that Britain subjugated India that, quite litterally, Europe was leaps and bounds ahead of her. That to claim such things as European science was superior to Indian science during the period, is completely and utterly justifiable.

Also, the following is completely justifiable, when we have theories of prehistoric Indian atomic bombs wielded by the Gods considered as serious:

"Claims that the Indological scholarship of Indians themselves is not scientific or that it is motivated by political motives, i.e. by Marxist, nationalist, Hindu, Muslim, Dravidian separatist or other motives."

But how does material advancement give one th e prerogative to present a cultural bias on history?
 
http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cg...university+ave - Many claims against Aryan Invasion is pseudo-scholarly. Points to the fact that anti-AI basically stop at Max Mueller. Also notes that even smaller groups of barbarians can topple civilizations and that evidence of Finno-Ugric influence in all Indo-European languages, but a lack of Dravidian outside of India, implies a close connection between Indo-European culture and Finno-Ugric before the migrations and invasions. It also makes a note that the native area of the horse is in regions where Aryans and Turkics could have feasibly interacted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_migration - A slwoer, less militaristic, immigration of Indo-Europeans that influenced India, especially in language and other such things.

http://indoeuro.bizland.com/archive/article14.html - Presents many of the beliefsf and concludes an Eastern European origin is very likely.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_hypothesis - Places Proto-Indo-Europeans North of the Black Sea, c. 3000 BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_hypothesis - Places Proto-Indo-Europeans in Anatolia, c. 6,500 BC.

There was also a website amongst these (or perhaps one which wasn't on topic enough) that noted that the Indus-Valley culture showed all the tell-tale signs of a non-urban culture with some urban settlements, but primarily pastoralist and otherwise rural. This was based on the extent of small-village living and on the huge distances between major urban centres unearthed.
 

This is refuted by presence of pre-Aryan Indus civilisations.
The Indus culture was probably succeeded by the early Vedic culture around 2500 BC with Sanskrit as the principal language of communication, at least among the elite and ruling classes of the society. By this time Sanskrit had already evolved into a full fledged language as is evident from the earliest Sanskrit verses found in the Vedas.

If these dates are true, which are based upon the astronomical data available in the Vedic scriptures, then we have to look afresh at the dates suggested by the European scholars to explain the movement of the PIE (Proto_indo_European languages) into other areas. In our opinion, from the point of view of the origin of Sanskrit, the PIE theory is not acceptable, unless we are able to place the first movement of PIE in the direction of Iran and India, possibly around 5000 BC or even earlier.

In the same manner the earliest Indo European Language cannot be Hittite, whose suggested date of origin was 1750 BC, but Sanskrit or an earlier version of Sanskrit which was in use as early as 2500 BC or even before. In other words if we want to accept the Anatolian origin of Sanskrit language, and place the south eastern movement of the Proto language from Anatolia to India in the proper of scheme of things, we need to push back the possible period of its occurrence by at least 3500 years to 5000 BC. (Please read the opinion of Prof. Jay Kumar regarding the antiquity of Hittite language and the status of Anatolian Languages from the links at the bottom of this page.)

http://www.hinduwebsite.com/general/sanskrit.asp
 
Samcdkey:

See my edit.

I'll address that in a moment.

Light Gigantic:

All such ideas about the origins of sanskrit coming from outside india are dependant on the vallidity of the Aryan Invasion theory - in other words you cannot use academic evidence of sanskrit coming from outside of India as evidence of the aryan invasion - on the contrary you have to use evidence of the aryan invasion to determine that sanskrit originated outside of india

Actually, the Kurgan and Anatolian hypotheses do not depend, at all, upon an invasion. They could also work on a migration. The only thing they require is that Sanskrit be derived from languages not native to India, which seems to be the case through all archaeological research.

samcdkey:

You do realise that the "leaps and bounds" were based on exploitation of the resources of the colonies by force?

Yes, I realize this fully. Exploitation of colonies was a very succesful system for Britain and for most empires historically. Rome did it, too. Egypt grew most of her wheat.

But you know, that's history for you. "To the victor belongs the spoils".

And do you agree that with the prominent indologists that "the Hindus are "a people exceedingly depraved""?

-Certainly- not. I am, in fact, a great admirer of Indian culture and Indian beliefs. India simply was not experiencing a particularly bright part of her history when conquered by the British.

Also, a fact about me that few know: I was actually raised in a family that regularly went to HIndu-offshoot Siddha Yoga related things. New York is home to an ashram of great importance and we'd regularly go there. In fact, I used to speak, as a child, to Gurumayi.

For further information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddha_Yoga

I even considered conversion to Hinduism for a period.

HOwever, if by "depraved" they meant "lived far less advanced as Europeans at the time of contact", then yes, I'd agree with that. India had nothing matching 19th century London and Paris. Even today India remains underdeveloped, although I am very glad to see remaining prosperous and growing.

Light Gigantic:

But how does material advancement give one th e prerogative to present a cultural bias on history?

Depends: Was there cultural bias?

There are nothing in the theories themselves that lead one to believe this.

SamCDKey:

You will note that the Sanskrit history given is heavily steeped in Indian mythology. This can hardly be considered historic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages Gives a better history of where Sanskrit comes from.
 
http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cg...university+ave - Many claims against Aryan Invasion is pseudo-scholarly. Points to the fact that anti-AI basically stop at Max Mueller. Also notes that even smaller groups of barbarians can topple civilizations and that evidence of Finno-Ugric influence in all Indo-European languages, but a lack of Dravidian outside of India, implies a close connection between Indo-European culture and Finno-Ugric before the migrations and invasions. It also makes a note that the native area of the horse is in regions where Aryans and Turkics could have feasibly interacted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_migration - A slwoer, less militaristic, immigration of Indo-Europeans that influenced India, especially in language and other such things.

http://indoeuro.bizland.com/archive/article14.html - Presents many of the beliefsf and concludes an Eastern European origin is very likely.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_hypothesis - Places Proto-Indo-Europeans North of the Black Sea, c. 3000 BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_hypothesis - Places Proto-Indo-Europeans in Anatolia, c. 6,500 BC.

There was also a website amongst these (or perhaps one which wasn't on topic enough) that noted that the Indus-Valley culture showed all the tell-tale signs of a non-urban culture with some urban settlements, but primarily pastoralist and otherwise rural. This was based on the extent of small-village living and on the huge distances between major urban centres unearthed.


The PNAS paper refutes the Aryan/Dravidian theory through genetic analysis which even you would agree is more precise than language analysis?

The multidimensional scaling plot of these values (Fig. 4, which is published as supporting information on the PNAS web site) demonstrates that the combined data set for the tribal peoples (derived from all regions of India, excluding those of the east and northeast) actually falls midway between those for northern and southern castes, whereas the tribal populations of the east and northeast are confirmed as a separate category. The position of the reduced tribal category, comprising groups from Southern, Northern, and Western India, is suggestive of geographical structuring north to south.


And:

It is not necessary, based on the current evidence, to look beyond South Asia for the origins of the paternal heritage of the majority of Indians at the time of the onset of settled agriculture. The perennial concept of people, language, and agriculture arriving to India together through the northwest corridor does not hold up to close scrutiny. Recent claims for a linkage of haplogroups J2, L, R1a, and R2 with a contemporaneous origin for the majority of the Indian castes' paternal lineages from outside the subcontinent are rejected, although our findings do support a local origin of haplogroups F* and H. Of the others, only J2 indicates an unambiguous recent external contribution, from West Asia rather than Central Asia. The current distributions of haplogroup frequencies are, with the exception of the O lineages, predominantly driven by geographical, rather than cultural determinants. Ironically, it is in the northeast of India, among the TB groups that there is clear-cut evidence for large-scale demic diffusion traceable by genes, culture, and language, but apparently not by agriculture.
 
SamCDKey:

In the same manner the earliest Indo European Language cannot be Hittite, whose suggested date of origin was 1750 BC, but Sanskrit or an earlier version of Sanskrit which was in use as early as 2500 BC or even before. In other words if we want to accept the Anatolian origin of Sanskrit language, and place the south eastern movement of the Proto language from Anatolia to India in the proper of scheme of things, we need to push back the possible period of its occurrence by at least 3500 years to 5000 BC. (Please read the opinion of Prof. Jay Kumar regarding the antiquity of Hittite language and the status of Anatolian Languages from the links at the bottom of this page.)

The Anatolian Hypothesis affirms just that: Proto-Indo-Europeans at 6,500 BC...
 
SamCDKey:

It is not necessary, based on the current evidence, to look beyond South Asia for the origins of the paternal heritage of the majority of Indians at the time of the onset of settled agriculture. The perennial concept of people, language, and agriculture arriving to India together through the northwest corridor does not hold up to close scrutiny. Recent claims for a linkage of haplogroups J2, L, R1a, and R2 with a contemporaneous origin for the majority of the Indian castes' paternal lineages from outside the subcontinent are rejected, although our findings do support a local origin of haplogroups F* and H. Of the others, only J2 indicates an unambiguous recent external contribution, from West Asia rather than Central Asia. The current distributions of haplogroup frequencies are, with the exception of the O lineages, predominantly driven by geographical, rather than cultural determinants. Ironically, it is in the northeast of India, among the TB groups that there is clear-cut evidence for large-scale demic diffusion traceable by genes, culture, and language, but apparently not by agriculture.

I am incapable of responding to this when other scholarly sources, of similar timeframe, affirm quite the opposite in the Y-Chromosome findings, and which do not seem to be invalidated by these tests. Quite simply, until or if more tests are done that settle the issue, I cannot present to you a rebuttal of this besides the sources I presented which claim otherwise.

According to here...http://www.proutworld.org/features/gen.htm

"Recent genetic discoveries by Dr. Spencer Wells (well documented in his book Journey of Man) shows that there were at least two large migrations into India, one by dark skinned people from Africa via the coastal areas and then into Australia, and another much later migration by lighter skinned people from central Asia."

"The researchers first analyzed mitochondrial DNA, which people only inherit from their mothers. When they looked at specific sets of genes that tend to be inherited as a unit, they found about 20 to 30 percent of the Indian sets resembled those in Europeans. The percentage was highest in upper caste males, which supports the theory of Aryans being upper castes. Overall, though, each caste resembled other Asians most."

Yet even if dillutted and wildly interbred with native people (it seems that Aryan men liked native-Indian women) it still shows enough difference to warrant a foundation for a genetic intrusion into India of the Aryans, specifically in the upper-castes.
 
SamCDKey:

The Anatolian Hypothesis affirms just that: Proto-Indo-Europeans at 6,500 BC...

The Anatolian hypothesis disregards the presence of language as an oral tradition.

And if the Vedas are mythology, then PIE itself is nothing more than a hypothesis with NO archaelogical evidence to support it.
The Proto-Indo-European language (PIE) is the hypothetical common ancestor of the Indo-European languages.
Proto-Indo-European (pIE) is the hypothetical ancestor of these Indo-European languages. It's hypothetical because we have no archaeological evidence that it ever existed, as its Neolithic speakers left no writings. Instead, its existence has been deduced from the study of cognates - sets of similar words with similar meanings. The similarities between Latin frater, Greek phratér, Gothic bróþar, Irish Gaelic bráthair, English 'brother' are obvious, but it wasn't until the 18th century - when European scholars began to study Sanskrit, the classical language of India - that it was realised that languages separated by thousands of miles, and with no history of contact, also shared these characteristics: the Sanskrit is bhrátár. Sir William Jones, a judge in India in the late 18th century, explained the relationship in a classic address to the Asiatick Society of Calcutta in 1786:

The Sanscrit language, whatever be its antiquity, is of a wonderful structure; more perfect than the Greek, more copious than the Latin, and more exquisitely refined than either, yet bearing to both of them a strong affinity, both in the roots of verbs and in the forms of grammar, than could possibly have been produced by accident; so strong indeed, that no philologer could examine them all three, without believing them to have sprung from some common source. [...] There is a similar reason, though not quite so forcible, for supposing that both the Gothick and the Celtick, though blended with a very different idiom, had the same origin with the Sanscrit; and the old Persian might be added to the same family.1

This was all very interesting, but of little use in practice. The great leap forward in Indo-Europeanism came when one crucial fact was established. These languages had developed from Jones's 'common source' through changes in pronunciation, but it was not realised for some time that the changes were regular, invariable, exceptionless. If a 'd' sound becomes a 't' sound, it does so everywhere - if there are exceptions, there will be some explanatory sociolinguistic factor. This, as simple as it is, may not sound like much, but it prefigures one of the most interesting areas of historical linguistics: the reconstruction of proto-Indo-European.

The best-known success of reconstruction goes by the grand name of Saussure's Laryngeal Hypothesis. In the late 19th century, the Swiss linguist Ferdinand de Saussure was examining some irregularities in the formulation of vowels in Indo-European languages. He formulated a theory that pIE had a series of three laryngeal consonants that had been dropped by its descendant languages but left an effect on the vowels that had adjoined them. Then, in the early part of the 20th century, sets of clay tablets were discovered at Amarna in Egypt and Bogazköy in Turkey that, when deciphered, turned out to be written in Hittite, the language of an extinct people only known about from scattered references in ancient texts. Crucially, it had laryngeals exactly where Saussure had predicted they would be.

Despite this kind of accomplishment, the problems of reconstruction are diverse. We have no idea whether any of the reconstructed words actually existed; indeed, the phonetic system established for proto-Indo-European looks nothing like that of any natural language. There may be many pIE words that cannot be reconstructed, simply because they died out in all except one of its descendant groups. Finally, comparative reconstruction has no place for sociolinguistic phenomena such as the prevalence of dialects, vocabulary alteration or cultural influences on language. So we know a lot about what pIE seems to have been like: we know some apparent vocabulary and we have inferred a lot about its phonetics (the speech sounds it used), phonology (how they were put together) and grammar. We deduce that noun forms were inflected according to number, case and gender and verb forms according to number, person, time and mood -- all quite complicated. But we have no way of knowing for sure if these hypotheses are true.

Many theories have been suggested, argued over and discarded: current prevailing wisdom places the 'homeland' on the south Russian steppes, north of the Black Sea, but 'linguistic paleontologists' have argued the case of many other locations. Generally these theories are based on the presumed existence in proto-Indo-European of certain words which allow certain cultural or geographical conclusions to be drawn. For instance, conclusions about the prevailing climate can be deduced from reconstruction of the pIE roots *sneigwh-2 (Latin nix, Greek niphos, Gothic snaiws, Gaelic sneachta, 'snow') and *g'heim (Latin hiems, Greek kheimon, Gaelic geimhreadh, Sanskrit hima, 'cold' or 'winter'). Other inferences can be drawn from the absence of words - there is no pIE reconstruction of 'sea', which suggests that its speakers originated inland and developed individual words for the sea as they encountered it during tribal migration. However, these conjectures are often problematic because it is impossible to accurately model how much the meaning of words may have shifted since the early days of pIE: the reconstructed *loks (German Lachs, Icelandic lax(fiskur), Russian losos, 'salmon') implies that the language was spoken in a region with salmon, which is to say northern Europe or north-western Asia, but the *loks cognate means 'trout' in some languages, even just 'fish' in others.

Given this, it seems unlikely that we will ever be able to deduce the origins of the Indo-Europeans through purely linguistic evidence.

http://nick.frejol.org/writings/proto-indo-european.live

And genetic evidence does not support it.
 
SamCDKey:

And if the Vedas are mythology, then PIE itself is nothing more than a hypothesis with NO archaelogical evidence to support it.

If you want to count the Vedas, we may count them. But if we are going to believe everything recorded in the Vedas, we must also the same of the Bible, the Nihon Shoki, the Poetic Edda, the Theogeny...

Similarly, the consensus of the anthropological and linguistic communities regarding the higher likelyhood (if not the exclusive likelyhood) of the Kurgan or Anatolian hypotheses lends one to discredit a source that simply speaks about how wonderful sanskrit is.


And genetic evidence does not support it.

According to many of the sources we're going over, the Y-chromosome European affinity cannot be explained by anything but a proto-European populace into India.
 
SamCDKey:



I am incapable of responding to this when other scholarly sources, of similar timeframe, affirm quite the opposite in the Y-Chromosome findings, and which do not seem to be invalidated by these tests. Quite simply, until or if more tests are done that settle the issue, I cannot present to you a rebuttal of this besides the sources I presented which claim otherwise.

According to here...http://www.proutworld.org/features/gen.htm

"Recent genetic discoveries by Dr. Spencer Wells (well documented in his book Journey of Man) shows that there were at least two large migrations into India, one by dark skinned people from Africa via the coastal areas and then into Australia, and another much later migration by lighter skinned people from central Asia."

"The researchers first analyzed mitochondrial DNA, which people only inherit from their mothers. When they looked at specific sets of genes that tend to be inherited as a unit, they found about 20 to 30 percent of the Indian sets resembled those in Europeans. The percentage was highest in upper caste males, which supports the theory of Aryans being upper castes. Overall, though, each caste resembled other Asians most."

Yet even if dillutted and wildly interbred with native people (it seems that Aryan men liked native-Indian women) it still shows enough difference to warrant a foundation for a genetic intrusion into India of the Aryans, specifically in the upper-castes.

This predates the PNAS (the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences) paper, which has addressed and refuted these claims based on a comprehensive analysis of the literature and the haplotypes

Archaeological evidence advocates the settlement of India by modern humans, using Middle Palaeolithic tools, during the Late Pleistocene (1–5). The large number of deep-rooting, Indian-specific mtDNA lineages of macro haplogroups M and N, whose presence cannot be explained by a recent introduction from neighboring regions (6), is consistent with the archaeological data. These two lines of evidence suggest that the initial settlement, followed by local differentiation, has left a predominantly Late Pleistocene genetic signature in the maternal heritage of India (7–11). The initial settlement of South Asia, between 40,000 and 70,000 years ago, was most likely over the southern route from Africa because haplogroup M, which is the most frequent mtDNA component in India, is virtually absent in the Near East and Southwest Asia (6, 11–14)

Several studies have argued that, in contrast to the relative uniformity of mtDNA, the Y chromosomes of Indian populations display relatively small genetic distances to those of West Eurasians (17), linking this finding to hypothetical migrations by Indo-Aryan speakers. Wells et al. (18) highlighted M17 (R1a) as a potential marker for one such event, as it demonstrates decreasing frequencies from Central Asia toward South India. Departing from the "one haplogroup equals one migration" scenario, Cordaux et al. (19) defined, heuristically, a package of haplogroups (J2, R1a, R2, and L) to be associated with the migration of IE people and the introduction of the caste system to India, again from Central Asia, because they had been observed at significantly lower proportions in South Indian tribal groups, with the high frequency of R1a among Chenchus of Andhra Pradesh (6) considered as an aberrant phenomenon (19). Conversely, haplogroups H, F*, and O2a, which were observed at significantly higher proportions among tribal groups of South India, led the same authors to single them out as having an indigenous Indian origin. Only O3e was envisaged as originating (recently) east of India (20), substantiating a linguistic correlation with the TB speakers of Southeast Asia.

The present study significantly increases the available sample size for India by typing 936 individuals from 77 populations, representing all four major linguistic groups (Fig. 1). The increased range of informative SNPs typed permits more detailed resolution of geographic patterns and the identification of some region-specific subsets of lineages. These Y chromosomes are analyzed in the context of available data from West Asia, East Asia, Southeast Asia, Central Asia, Europe, the Near East, and Ethiopia. Measures of genetic distance, admixture, and factor analysis drawn from the Y-chromosome data are used to investigate three themes central to population genetics in India: demographic links to West and Central Asia, the genetic relationship between castes and tribes, and geographic versus linguistic grouping for the current populations of the Indian subcontinent.

By considering all haplogroup frequencies simultaneously, an indication of the relatedness between regions is obtained (Table 1). Here, for the sake of comparison only, the categories used by a previous study (19) are retained, but the tribal population is split into two because of the close association identified here between Hg O and tribal groups of the east and northeast of India (O2a represents 77% of AA speakers and 47% of TB speakers), which are combined to form the east and northeast tribes. In contrast to the earlier study (19), the caste populations of "north" and "south" India are not particularly more closely related to each other (average Fst value = 0.07) than they are to the tribal groups (average Fst value = 0.06). The multidimensional scaling plot of these values (Fig. 4, which is published as supporting information on the PNAS web site) demonstrates that the combined data set for the tribal peoples (derived from all regions of India, excluding those of the east and northeast) actually falls midway between those for northern and southern castes, whereas the tribal populations of the east and northeast are confirmed as a separate category. The position of the reduced tribal category, comprising groups from Southern, Northern, and Western India, is suggestive of geographical structuring north to south.
 
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