Arguments – Obstacles on the way leading to eternal life

The lack of thinking
Actually, thinking is what turned me away from the literalness of traditional Judeo-Christianity.

Therefore we must understand, that the attitude of the "scientific" man is , in fact, entirely based on faith and it is no more scientific than believing in creation. They are both based on faith
There are many public misconceptions about science, but it is not equal to some other random possibility that, with faith, one could also believe in. I think science has discovered some uncomfortable truths about biology that reduce the need for the explanatory power of the supernatural. The Big Bang is also not entirely a matter of faith, but a logical deduction from observation, which theology is not.

What we are discussing is the immune system of a viral-like entity that uses words as a medium of control of the human mind. These arguments for theology are meant for weak minds that don't want to think too much about it.
 
PetriFB said:
http://koti.phnet.fi/elohim/arguments.html

The purpose of the following lines is to contemplate those obstacles, which one may encounter on the way leading to eternal life and why some people don't turn to God so easily. The purpose is to deliberate especially over those outlooks and thoughts, which lie in the minds of many people and make them negative toward spiritual matters and God's call; in other words reasons, why they turn their backs on God's salvation and grace.

So, when we start searching for reasons and obstacles, why these people don't turn to God and on what grounds, especially the following points are relevant. They appear again and again in the lives of many people and are a reason for why spiritual matters and God's call are neglected by them.
Let’s begin by analyzing the concept of ‘eternal’ before we add the ‘life’ to it.

Eternal denotes an escape from time – space being but another aspect of the temporal.

To be timeless is to be unchanging, devoid of becoming and simply being.

Being, the notion of ONE, is the cessation of existence.
To be not-temporal is to fall out of existence and never change - singularity.

To never change is to be inert, stagnating, unmoving, devoid of dimensions.

Consciousness is the apprehension of change, the universal flux, need.
Consciousness is one thought followed by another in a continuous stream of temporal alteration.
Self-consciousness is the looking-back upon one’s self, by arbitrarily separating a piece of consciousness and objectifying the rest – giving the impression of duality and the mind/body illusion.

When I refer to an ‘I’ I am referring to a hypothetical unity that has past and I am observing it in hindsight.
The same can be said for the concept of ‘Here’ and ‘Now’ and the number ‘1’.
These concepts are generalizations encompassed between the beginning and the end of a thought. This is why they are imprecise concepts and can be infinitely divided.
There is no Here, Now, Self, One because there is no absolute, no stability, no inertia.
If there were it would drop out of existence.

We can only imagine what an absolute void would be like because the concept is beyond out conceptual abilities.
We are products of change and we can only relate to it.

Our concepts concerning the void or substance or matter are all in relation to our own temporal flow.
Something is considered hard or stable when it alters slower in relation to us.

So, in essence, consciousness is a temporal phenomenon caused when universal flux produces a temporal direction and manifests itself in alteration, giving birth to different speeds of it (matter).

The future represents – as Sartre said – my potential for becoming and my past the sum of my choices in this becoming.
If I would actually become and Be then I would cease existing.

I can look to the past, and even to myself in it, because the past has ceased being temporal, in other words, it has ceased to alter and is fixed as a memory in my mind.
We can then study the fixed.
The accuracy of our study determines our awareness of the events that occurred.

Consciousness, and its enhancement of self-consciousness, is essentially matter, change, trying to stabilize itself by becoming more efficient in its resistance to change.

Therefore consciousness cannot exist and has no reason to outside necessity.
It is a product of it and in the service of it.

This makes the entire idea about a conscious God ludicrous, to say the least.
An omnipotent, omniscient being would have no reason to think, it would be perfects table, inert, timeless and spaceless.

The only way we can justify God is by making ourselves a manifestation of his struggle to create himself.
 
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Re "The lack of thinking":

Mental institutions are full of people who think *too much* to still be able to function in the world.
 
Sarkus said:
If you agree with it you must surely be able to support what it says? Otherwise you are as guilty as the writer of logical fallacies in what you agree with.

Let's be more specific....


WHAT exactly do you agree with?
Please quote some statements from the piece that you agree with and let's see how they stand up to scrutiny. :rolleyes:

Jari's article:

A reason for why many reject the heavenly treasure and God's call, are the mistakes and wrongs of other people and churches, which have been done in the name of God. They may use the mistakes made by their acquaintances or politicians or wrongs done in the past as pretexts, and therefore they regard themselves as being sensible, when they don't turn to God. I myself too formerly gave reasons for my negative attitude on spiritual matters, one of which was only the wrongs done in the name of God during past centuries. Since I had the impression that on these grounds a God could never exist, I therefore did not understand to turn to him. This along with many other so called rational arguments influenced me in such a way, that instead of paying any attention to spiritual matters, I rejected them. And therefore I understand that many others too reject the heavenly treasure due to the same reasons.
 
Nope, that's not why. In fact, the Christians I know are fine honorable people who have never done me wrong.

It's just a silly idea, too anthropomorphic, to convenient that our God resembles us, we who only recently in Earth's history evolved to be intelligent. Everything I see tends to be self-organizing in a passive way from within, not directed from without.
 
spidergoat said:
Nope, that's not why. In fact, the Christians I know are fine honorable people who have never done me wrong.

It's just a silly idea, too anthropomorphic, to convenient that our God resembles us, we who only recently in Earth's history evolved to be intelligent. Everything I see tends to be self-organizing in a passive way from within, not directed from without.

Fact is that many people thinks that they are so scientifically and rational thinking that they can't believe silly things as beliving to God .....
 
What is wrong with being rational? You think you are rational to believe in God, but it is obvious you lack even a primitive understanding of science, while I am familiar with the basics of Christianity and some of it's early history.

I think you are promoting anti-intellectualism.
 
spidergoat said:
What is wrong with being rational? You think you are rational to believe in God, but it is obvious you lack even a primitive understanding of science, while I am familiar with the basics of Christianity and some of it's early history.

I think you are promoting anti-intellectualism.

I have read scientific text and often there reads words as assumed, assumption, estimation, assess and hypothesis .....so how I can base my life to assumptions, when I can base my life to truth in God ....
 
PetriFB said:
I have read scientific text and often there reads words as assumed, assumption, estimation, assess and hypothesis .....so how I can base my life to assumptions, when I can base my life to truth in God ....

*************
M*W: You poor dumb child! You are still basing your life on an 'assumption!' Have you ever tried 'reality?' That works for me.
 
PetriFB
Jesus didn't write anything down. Don't you assume a kind of sainthood on the part of those who brought you His message? You assume miracles were real, even though you didn't see them. You assume that even though only four disciples are represented in the Bible that they knew what they were talking about. Disciple means student, and Jesus died prematurely, there is no guarantee they learned what he taught.
 
I can think of one obstacle to thinking critically, and that is the fear of death and Christianity's unverifiable promise of eternal life in paradise.
 
Another obstacle to critical thinking is a great desire to appear noble and magnanimous. It can do horrid things to one's mind.
 
PetriFB said:
I have read scientific text and often there reads words as assumed, assumption, estimation, assess and hypothesis .....so how I can base my life to assumptions, when I can base my life to truth in God ....
Did you know it is only an "assumption" that when you walk off a cliff you will fall to the bottom?
You'll find that the assumption has so far held to be correct in every occurrence.
If you doubt the "assumption" - please feel free to test it - and provide the scientific community with more evidence.

The fact is that everyone's life is based on assumptions and estimations. You "assume" that your car will work in the morning - so you get in it to drive it to work / school etc.
You "assume" that when you work you'll get paid.
These are all assumptions built up on observed evidence.
 
Medicine Woman said:
*************
M*W: You poor dumb child! You are still basing your life on an 'assumption!' Have you ever tried 'reality?' That works for me.
All reality is an assumption.
Some just have better arguments than others.
 
PetriFB said:
I have read scientific text and often there reads words as assumed, assumption, estimation, assess and hypothesis .....so how I can base my life to assumptions, when I can base my life to truth in God ....
And every one of those assumptions is tested by experiment, and if found wanting, is rejected. If it seems valid the experiment is repeated many times, by many workers, with variations in the character of the experiment, to further test the range and validity of the assumptiom.

In every instance the assumption is provisional, temporary and subject to change if rigorous investigation invalidates it. That is the difference between assumptions in science and assumptions in religion. The one is tested by evidence, the other is founded on faith.
 
petriFB,

Obstacles on the way leading to eternal life
People have been wishing they could escape involuntary death ever since they realized what it was. The human’s innate instinct to survive makes him continually seek solutions to real problems and insurmountable problems. So far no one has solved the problem of involuntary death. For many the prospect of non-existence is unthinkable and unacceptable, but the lack of a real solution quickly led to entirely fictional and imaginative concepts to at least give hope, no matter how fantastic the ideas.

From that basic scenario from ancient times to the current we are still faced with no solution to the rather obvious non-existence when we die. But the human imagination has spawned an enormous array of fantasy scenarios that would allow one to cheat death. Most of which do not include the actual body recovering since the 100% evidence shows that it simply rots away, although various attempts at mummification did try to solve that problem. But the result is the multitude of religions and superstitions that have come and gone over the various millennia.

That people still cling to fantasies like souls, and reincarnation etc, is a testament to human stupidity and gullibility.

Is there a solution to death? Well perhaps it isn’t too far away but it will take a lot more work and lot more intensive science and technology. Possibly the most reputable site for investigating and discussing practical possibilities of longer lifespans is the immortality institute www.imminst.org This has many scientists and technologists working on this very real age-old problem.

Needless to say the religious crap of this thread is just that. Eternity is something that is really difficult to comprehend in practical terms, but religions usually spout these utopian extremes simply because fantasy isn’t limited by reality.
 
Cris said:
petriFB,

People have been wishing they could escape involuntary death ever since they realized what it was. The human’s innate instinct to survive makes him continually seek solutions to real problems and insurmountable problems. So far no one has solved the problem of involuntary death. For many the prospect of non-existence is unthinkable and unacceptable, but the lack of a real solution quickly led to entirely fictional and imaginative concepts to at least give hope, no matter how fantastic the ideas.

From that basic scenario from ancient times to the current we are still faced with no solution to the rather obvious non-existence when we die. But the human imagination has spawned an enormous array of fantasy scenarios that would allow one to cheat death. Most of which do not include the actual body recovering since the 100% evidence shows that it simply rots away, although various attempts at mummification did try to solve that problem. But the result is the multitude of religions and superstitions that have come and gone over the various millennia.

That people still cling to fantasies like souls, and reincarnation etc, is a testament to human stupidity and gullibility.

Is there a solution to death? Well perhaps it isn’t too far away but it will take a lot more work and lot more intensive science and technology. Possibly the most reputable site for investigating and discussing practical possibilities of longer lifespans is the immortality institute www.imminst.org This has many scientists and technologists working on this very real age-old problem.

Needless to say the religious crap of this thread is just that. Eternity is something that is really difficult to comprehend in practical terms, but religions usually spout these utopian extremes simply because fantasy isn’t limited by reality.


Personal faith to Christ and religion are totally two different thing ...........

I don't support any religions, because they chains people and cause wars and many bad things .......but I support faith to Christ .......'
 
PetriFB,

Personal faith to Christ and religion are totally two different thing ...........

I don't support any religions, because they chains people and cause wars and many bad things .......but I support faith to Christ .......'
They are for all practical purposes identical. Both assert that a fantasy is true. Both are therefore quite irrational and dangerous.
 
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