Arguements against the Christian God
- Thread starter spiritual_spy
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It's like when you try to explain to a child that santa is just a made-up fantasy... They won't listen to reason because they want to believe for the emotional benefits.
Ggazoo: You and other people that are practically identical to you here, Woody, TheVisitor etc, are exposed with each post that you beleive purely for emotional benefits. Although Woody's song lyrics about the 'Lord' and his happy family singing those lyrics did have me in tears... of laughter
You not only believe in Santa... Oops, I mean 'God', but you belong to a particular organised religion because you are that intellectually bankrupt. You are not content with beleiving in the Flying Spag.... I mean 'God', but you associate a million other irrational, wishful guesses to that Tooth fairy... I mean 'God'.
If you have a need to believe in God, then why do you need to attatch that beleif to just one out of an unlimited number of organised faiths?
Ggazoo: You and other people that are practically identical to you here, Woody, TheVisitor etc, are exposed with each post that you beleive purely for emotional benefits. Although Woody's song lyrics about the 'Lord' and his happy family singing those lyrics did have me in tears... of laughter
You not only believe in Santa... Oops, I mean 'God', but you belong to a particular organised religion because you are that intellectually bankrupt. You are not content with beleiving in the Flying Spag.... I mean 'God', but you associate a million other irrational, wishful guesses to that Tooth fairy... I mean 'God'.
If you have a need to believe in God, then why do you need to attatch that beleif to just one out of an unlimited number of organised faiths?
KennyJC said:
Now that is something which I'm tired of hearing. Christians are often characterized as people who believe whatever they are told by the church. Faith is thought of as something that one believes blindly - with no supporting evidence. However, this viewpoint does not represent biblical Christianity. In contrast, to what many skeptics believe, the Bible challenges its readers to test it and come to a reasonable conclusion. There are those Christians who believe blindly, and certain cults (such as Mormonism) teach that truth can be known through prayer. These ideas are heretical to biblical Christianity and often lead to deception, making such individuals susceptible to conversion by the cults.
And as far as your Santa Claus and Pink Unicorn analogies go, well, they just make me laugh. Most of us believe in Santa Claus as small children, but give up that belief by age 10. People do not believe in false things, even if those things make them feel better. If people routinely believed in things just to make them feel better, we would all continue to believe in the existence of Santa Claus.
God created the entire universe,including time itself, which did not exist prior to God creating it. Both Santa Claus and unicorns are contingent beings, whereas God is non-contingent. Therefore, to make an analogy between God and either Santa Claus or invisible pink unicorns is logically flawed from the outset.
The idea that God is a made-up concept to soothe our fears makes no sense, since we reject the existence of other made-up figures that might, likewise, make us feel better.
To answer these questions would take prior knowledge of God, and Gods charactoristics alone. How do we really know any of whats beyond what humans have wrote? You've made a step towards posting the right, i will admit. But i think you lacked the essentials to read this. How do you know that God doesn't like taking walks, and only talking to the jews, seeing as how he made it clear he could do it if he wanted too. Every point as a matter a fact that this document made, was on generalizations that humans would make, not on a matter of gods. Now i'm going to use my power of reasoning, and figure that you weren't smart enough to make your own theory, so you googled one up, and hoped for people to agree with you, or argue with you so you could google up a defense. My next use of reasoning would be that you hardly read this before posting it, because you hardly speak of the document, with a knowledgable account.
From what I have read of your posts, this is exactly why you believe in God. And yes, 'God' is a made-up concept... I can not stress that enough as it is obvious. It would have to have been divinely revealed to man through supernatural means if God isn't a man-made concept. I look forward to you saying "oh but it was divinely revealed to man"...
I am also aware that Christians don't all share identical beleifs, but they share the same belief that Jesus is their savior and Bible as truth. If you deny this then tell me why you do not follow Mohammed and the Quran? Or the countless other less popular saviors and accompanying books written by 'God'.
So what then is the difference between Santa and God? Well there are very specific claims about Santa which can be put to bed when you see your parents putting the presents under the tree.
The genius about 'God' is that even if humans have perfect knowledge of the universe and no 'God' is found... The notion of 'God' is vague enough that there is still room to believe.
So I wouldn't be so quick to say this:
God, religion, ghosts, Loch Ness monster, Aliens visiting Earth, Astrology, palm reading, heaven, prayer, eternal life, clairvoyant's...
You know as well as I do that many/all of the above/some of those I listed above are false, yet people believe because it makes them feel good.
How is your luck? Are the things you believe in that list the ones that are true? I doubt it very much.
Nice..KennyJC said:From what I have read of your posts, this is exactly why you believe in God. And yes, 'God' is a made-up concept... I can not stress that enough as it is obvious. It would have to have been divinely revealed to man through supernatural means if God isn't a man-made concept. I look forward to you saying "oh but it was divinely revealed to man"...
I am also aware that Christians don't all share identical beleifs, but they share the same belief that Jesus is their savior and Bible as truth. If you deny this then tell me why you do not follow Mohammed and the Quran? Or the countless other less popular saviors and accompanying books written by 'God'.
So what then is the difference between Santa and God? Well there are very specific claims about Santa which can be put to bed when you see your parents putting the presents under the tree.
The genius about 'God' is that even if humans have perfect knowledge of the universe and no 'God' is found... The notion of 'God' is vague enough that there is still room to believe.
So I wouldn't be so quick to say this:
God, religion, ghosts, Loch Ness monster, Aliens visiting Earth, Astrology, palm reading, heaven, prayer, eternal life, clairvoyant's...
You shouldnt be so hard on them kenny, believers are fragile creatures. KennyJC said:From what I have read of your posts, this is exactly why you believe in God. And yes, 'God' is a made-up concept... I can not stress that enough as it is obvious. It would have to have been divinely revealed to man through supernatural means if God isn't a man-made concept. I look forward to you saying "oh but it was divinely revealed to man"...
Oh, and you say this because? Wait, is it because if you where a god you would make everything different? Try to balance two things for me real quick though, if you can of course. Balance peace and free will. I don't see how it could be hard, but go ahead try your best shot.
KennyJC said:
Ohh going for the old religous crutch routine. Well how do you know if religions mental relieving abilities are more or less an after effect from the reilgion, and not a sub concious state of mind?
Easy. Give the the power to choose but first show them what will happen if they disobey. (Show them a veiw of hell and give them a brief moment in hell to just get a taste) then say if you obey you you stay here in paradise. When someone disobeys instead of allowing it to spread, toss him into the fire. Destroy the virus before it spreads. Simplicty.Ricky Houy said:
spiritual_spy said:
I'm sure your followers would find such redemption under your reign, sad enough to say you would do this.
In short you can not obtain peace with free will, it cannot be possible unless 6 billion people decide to agree on one thing, and look at 4 people here who can barely agree on this.
Yes i would. I wouldnt use the "well one of you sinned so i am going to make billions suffer for your mistake" logic".Ricky Houy said:
spiritual_spy said:
I suppose your logic would make sense, the day only 1 person out of 6 billion sinned. I think the numbers are more accurate the way the bible goes, atleast it seemed like you were saying this. Well let me be the first to tell you the christian bible doesn't punish billions for one, but billions for billions, roughly the exact same number. The only thing is, they are given their whole life to be with god.
No the God of the bible does this. Adam and eve sinned. Instead of just letting the curse stay on them he curses all there decendants for crimes they didnt even commit. fast foward a few thousand years. You have mass genocide, wars, murders, rapes, and almost every other horror you can imagine. All a result of the sins of TWO people. Just? I dont think so.Ricky Houy said:
spiritual_spy said:
Yes he did punish mankind, for Adam and Eves actions, but he gave them a fair warning. The test of adam eating the apple was deaper then just him doing it, it was a test of mankind. Most men would have eaten the apple, and with a naked girl sitting in front of you encouraging it i imagine it wasn't any easier. Besides after eating the apple he gave mankind the knowledge to know the difference between right and wrong, therefor they didn't need to live in the garden anymore.
With the mass genocide to be gods fault or the rape or murder, you would have to tell me how god interfered with their free will to commit such actions, and then i would really like to know what his motive was.
You forget. before Sin adam and eve were still pure & ignorant. God just tells them if you eat you die. Im pretty sure if god would have have shown them what would happen if they ate the apple (Ie the horrors of humanity today) they wouldnt of went anywere near that damned tree. Any sane man wouldnt. It is Gods fualt for not stopping the horror before it was unleashed instead he just let i run about and let billions suffer.
spiritual_spy said:
You forget about free will, you see god gave us the choice, to walk with him, or be sinners. Adam made the choice, and we sit here because of it. But i fail to see any logic in this, because god didn't do anything to disprove his own existance, rather then make you disagree with his actions. It's still funny to see people fight religion with charactoristics of mankind, and not having any knowledge of what a true god is. All you know is what man has written about god. No one but the few who get to join him in heaven knows why or what made him decide to do anything. So when i stop to see you disagree with this, i can only think you just dont know what to agree with.
So a man with little knowledge of what he was doing made a choice so now all of us have to suffer for it? i still fail to see what is just in that. i mean we are all labeled as sinners at birth becuase of the original sin even though we had no choice in the matter. Plus here is another problem with God. He communicated to all mankind from anceint people who to put it lightly were savages and expects me, a person who lives in the modern age with science and reason, to believe in a bunch of anceint texts which supports a god who ordered the sluaghter of entire cities and who destroyed all mankind in a massive flood but decided to let one man and his family live. I mean WTF?
He expects us to believe tales from a bunch of savages?
He expects us to believe tales from a bunch of savages?
spiritual_spy said:
Adam knew what he was doing, god gave him the knowledge to know the reprecutions of his actions of eating the apple. It's not like he was a walking idiot, he knew he needed a companion, which god gave him. God gave him everything he needed to live peaceful but as you have yet to notice, free will just doesn't seem to work out well with peace. So it was bound to fail no matter WHO was in the garden of eve. Basically it was a test of the inevitable, and we were all bound to lvie this way dispite the fact we could have lived in the garden of eve. Yes he flooded the world of evils, and let Noah, a man who never commited any wrongs, a truelly pure person to live. So this goes back to where he saves the rightious and destroying the evil. Wow doesn't that sound sort of simular to your idea. But even so it failed to save peace in the world, because men are sinners. So tell me what part do you still not get?
So telling him if you eat you die is telling him the full force of his actions? And i seriously doubt that Noah was the only good man on earth. Even at the level of corruption today there are still lots of good people. So unless things worse than thefollowing things happened God wasnt justified.Ricky Houy said:
1.Mass genocide
2.Wars
3.massive levels of adultry and sexual perversion
4.Murders
5.Destruction of the enviroment
All of this is present today yet there is still good people. (And remeber we are supposed to be heading toward the end times the worst period of human history) And your telling me that the only good person was Noah? I doubt it.
And you still didnt touch on my my statement about the the beleif in savages.
The free will argument is an annoying one. The theist is limited only to the fact that true free will exists as is commonly described by religions... People who objectively think about it on the other hand come to different possabilities:
1. God created everything and had perfect knowledge of past and future events - We are in effect puppets the same way pacman is to us.
2. God does not exist - but even so do we still have free will? We are just following our nero pattern and chemical/genetic makeup.
It does seem like free will exists because it is apparent that I have a choice in what to type... But what theists miss is that when you bypass the macroscopic view and think about all the things that contribute to our choice... can it be described as true free will even without knowledge of possible Godly external factors?
The whole 'evil' thing is irrelevant. Evil is a perception depending on the cultural notions in a society. Evil has nothing to do with 'free will' in my opinion.
1. God created everything and had perfect knowledge of past and future events - We are in effect puppets the same way pacman is to us.
2. God does not exist - but even so do we still have free will? We are just following our nero pattern and chemical/genetic makeup.
It does seem like free will exists because it is apparent that I have a choice in what to type... But what theists miss is that when you bypass the macroscopic view and think about all the things that contribute to our choice... can it be described as true free will even without knowledge of possible Godly external factors?
The whole 'evil' thing is irrelevant. Evil is a perception depending on the cultural notions in a society. Evil has nothing to do with 'free will' in my opinion.