Are vegan and vegetarian diets really healthy?

Originally posted by Jack_Quack:
B12 is only found NATURALLY in fish, milk and milk products, eggs, meat, and poultry. That would make it impossible for vegans to get some. However it is also found in fortified breakfast cereals. "Vitamin B12 is naturally found in animal foods including fish, milk and milk products, eggs, meat, and poultry. Fortified breakfast cereals are an excellent source of vitamin B12 and a particularly valuable source for vegetarians (5, 6, 7). The table of selected food sources of vitamin B12 suggests dietary sources of vitamin B12." Source: http://www.cc.nih.gov/ccc/supplemen...12.html#provide or the National Institute of Health.
Click to expand...
Yes, Vitamin B12 is a pretty unique nutrient found exclusively in animal products. But about the information on fortified breakfast cereals being excellent sources of Vitamin B12, I express my deepest doubts. You may have heard about how cereals are great sources of Vitamin B12 on TV commericials or other advertisements, but are they really true and believable? Not necessarily. Because I just found this web site that clearly states that plants are not good sources of Vitamin B12, and that vegans should take supplements in order to get this important nutrient.
The article states: "...However, the present consensus is that any Vitamin B12 present in plant foods is likely to be unavailable to humans and so these foods should not be relied upon as safe sources."
"Vitamin B12 is necessary for the synthesis of red blood cells, the maintenance of the nervous system, and growth and development in children. Deficiency can cause anaemia. Vitamin B12 neuropathy, involving the degeneration of nerve fibres and irreversible neurological damage, can also occur."
FROM VEGETARIAN SOCIETY: http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html
This info should be reliable since it is a veganism-promoting web site.
 
Actually the food we grow are not found in nature, they are not natural. Though your right that eveything effects the ecosystems, the diffrents between farms that grow food for animals to eat and make meat and farms that grow for for people to eat isn't much.
 
yes well certainly the products we consume everyday is hardly ever found in nature, but they are made of raw materials which are found in the natural environment. For example, if you trace the components of bread, it would be something like this:
Ending product of bread (in stores) -> dough -> flour -> cereal grains, and grains are found in nature.
The ultimate raw material of everything is always found in the natural environment. We humans are only using the stuff found on Mother Earth to make all kinds of different things.
 
eddymrsci,

Why stop there, everything made of atoms, atoms from the stars, we are all star dust! the problem is what relevant. In a ecosystem, all of us being made of star dust is not relevant, all food being made of biomolecules is not relevant. Where talking about what would cause a serious effect to the world ecosystems. Face it before man started farming the world was a very different place: forest covered the state were I live, but deforestation turn it all to parries and tilled soil, and the wild life adapted. A change like removing all meat producing domestic animals is nothing compared to what we have already done. In fact animals that make meat required 10 times as much land as is needed to provide that same nutritional value from plants. We could cut back on farming or use less extensive farming, less pesticides and fertilizers, Improving the water supply and the environment.
 
I can't believe by leaving this topic for a few days, I've been left behind by miles.....
By the way, I need your opinion on the fact that animal protein is a little simpler than veg protein, thus more easily digested and so on..... any effect from that? (sorry, I'
m awful at typing long talks...)
 
It more like animal carbohydrates are simpler then plant carbohydrates and thus easier to digest. But that rule comes with many exceptions considering the table sugar is made from plants.
 
you are definitely wrong eddymrsci. I did not find my information from a tv advertisement, or other ad. It says right there that it is from the National Institute of Health. And what does B12 content in plants have to do with cereals. The amounts of B12 in cereals is the second greatest amount you can find. It is second in B12 content only to Beef liver. Thank you ver much.
 
Thank you very much to WellCookedFetus for shutting eddymrsci down on the meat production/consumption effects on the ecosystem. You are very correct about the relevance. And as to curioucity look at the times of the post. I was posting like crazy last night.
 
"Vegans are recommended to ensure their diet includes foods fortified with vitamin B12. A range of B12 fortified foods are available. These include yeast extracts, Vecon vegetable stock, veggieburger mixes, textured vegetable protein, soya milks, vegetable and sunflower margarines, and breakfast cereals. " Vegetarian Society
 
"Although some vegans may get vitamin B12 from inadequate hand washing, this is not a reliable vitamin B12 source. Vegans who previously ate animal-based foods may have vitamin B12 stores that will not be depleted for 20 to 30 years [1] or more. However, long-term vegans, infants, children, and pregnant and lactating women (due to increased needs) should be especially careful to get enough vitamin B12." By: Reed Mangels, Ph.D., R.D from Vegetarian Resource Group at http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/b12.htm
 
So, vegetarian/vegan diets are healthier than those diets that include meat, but only if they include supplements and/or fortifications to make up for the stuff that others get from eating meat that vegetarian/vegan diets are low in? Isn't that circular reasoning?
 
No, it isn't. You do not need to take supplements like pills. You usually don’t need to pay attention to getting enough vitamins and minerals. But for things like B12, if you are concerned, you can buy a number of things that have it. But if you eat a variety of foods, and you don’t eat meat, you can be perfectly healthy. The key is variety.
 
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By the way, Jack Quack, off topic....
Notice that edit link there?

EDIT: nevermind.......
 
it simply is untrue that meat has any nutrient that can't be gotten from a better source. i said on the first page that yes, plants don't have B vitamins. but last time i checked, cyanobacteria wasn't an animal. there's nothing magical about the B's in meat. bacteria and fungi are wonderful sources of it. i'm never actually deficient in B12 but i do have a bottle of vitamins which i take occasionally just in case. you don't really need it. the bacteria present everywhere is enough. the calcium in cow milk isn't readily absorbed in your stomach. plant sources like greens and tofu not only have more of it, but you can digest/absorb it better. i've heard people talk about protein like that, making it blindingly obvious they know nothing about biochemistry. fortunately sir, i'm a biochemist. i can tell you that no matter where you get your protein, protein is protein. all the amino acids are in there. legumes and fungi have complete proteins, but it matters little if it is complete anyway. a human body will get more than enough of all amino acids if they eat as little as a slice of bologna a day (as an example for size comparison). honestly, that's all you need. americans eat far too much protein for their bodies to handle. our unique health problems are a function of how much protein and fat we eat...and salt and cholesterol. hey look at that. everything found in meat.
 
SwedishFish,
Thank you very much swedishfish. but i was wondering about your post on peta. I would like to know where you have learned this, because it is well liked by all vegans and vegetarians i know, including myself. THanks
 
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Ok, I have a couple of questions.

Why do we have the teeth and digestive systems of omnivores? if we aren't meant to eat meat shouldn't our teeth and stomachs resemble a cow's for example?

In modern times it's hard to tell what is right because of all the choices and opinions around us but in the past what you ate was a matter of survival and they chose meat, are you really arguing they were wrong? Even animals know what they are supposed to eat instinctively and for all of recorded history and in every culture meat has always been part of human diet.

I'm not being facetious here, I've always wondered about this.
 
Think about it this way. Of course vegetarian and vegan diets are healthy, because why would millions of people choose a vegetarian lifestyle. Even in the bible (although I am not religious, Adam and Eve were in the start vegetarians or vegans I forget which). Buddhism also teaches you to be a vegetarian. Almost all Buddhists (If they listen to its teachings) are vegetarians. Health advocates would also condemn it if it were bad. So, it can't be bad, because if it were, you would have definitely heard about it.
 
thank me for what??
i didn't "learn" that peta sucks from anyone else. i read what they have to say and see their bs propaganda. it's sensationalism, not fact. you've been taken in apparently, accomplishing their mission. oh well, at least you were taken in by a semi-good cause.

buffys, i have answers for that. we don't. do you eat raw meat? god i hope not. your stomach would hate you for it. if you were a carnivore you could. we're not born with tolerance for meat (denatured). babies can't digest it. after subtle introduction you can build up the ability to digest it by producing the necessary enzymes because you are an omnivore. but it still has to be denatured. if you were to stop eating meat you'd lose your ability to digest it. if i were to eat any i'd throw it right up. don't have the right enzymes. our teeth are also not designed for ripping into raw meat.
in our natural history, diversity of diet has contributed to our success as a species. but in 2004 in developed nations there's no need to eat anything from an animal. if you want to that's another story. i hate when people defend their love of a juicy steak by saying they need to eat it. fine, enjoy it. but don't make shit up.
 
Okay, before I make any more comments on this issue, let me just declare that I have no intention of changing or offending in any possible way whatsoever the lifestyle of anybody, including vegetarians. If I had done this in any way, I apologize for my rudeness. I started this question just because I was wondering about the popular issue, and I want to see and collect views and opinions from different perspectives. In my past experience, I have attempted to discuss this issue with others, and now I am only trying to get views and possibly answers on this issue from the public. I didn't mean to offend anybody in any sort of way.
I am saying this because I was overwhelmed by some people's reaction and attitude toward answering my question. We are just having a fair, reasonable, objective, and logical discussion about vegetarianism. All we want is other people's suggestions and opinions, possibly accompanied by supporting evidence. So don't take any of this as a personal issue, although it may be to certain vegetarians here. and again I apologize if it offends you. But please don't let your passions and feelings interfere with this discussion, be nice and honest when replying, try not to be hostile.
All people have the freedom of lifestyle choice, including whether to be a vegetarian.
 
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