Oh COME ON! Theists make sense. Sometimes. Ummmm ... 17% of the time.
Are God's Creations Real?
- Thread starter PsychoticEpisode
- Start date
That statistic is only relevant when one theist talks to another.
I'd question that logic.
The something from nothing factor is a difficult concept to accept for theists and atheists alike. Whether you're talking God's origin or that of the universe.
Is a thought real? Sure I guess, but there is a difference between the thinker and the idea. The thinker is real in the conventional sense, made of substance & occupying space whereas the thought does neither. I was simply trying to emphasize that we are God's thoughts and if God is real then what does it make us? Essentially, if a causal God's ideas are manifest then we are of a different reality, something you alluded to.
For myself, there can only be one reality. If you believe God is real then that is reality. The only way God's reality and ours can work is if everything originated from the same beginning moment. Therefore we are no different than God as far as being real. We are not His thoughts.
I'm just trying to introduce something different into the age old arguments. Why couldn't everything have had the same origin? Theists can still believe in God & atheists can still not believe in God even if we all came from the same place. God could still exist but He would be drastically different than what is commonly portrayed. God just might be some smart guy laying claim to divine status. Then again He could be our idea.
And in reality, the thought is real. You experience it as something other than reality, but in truth it is the result of electric and chemical actions in the brain. So yes, the thought does take up conventional space, and is real in the conventional sense.
But I'm failing to see what you're getting at...are you asking atheists and theists to get along? I mean, listen, there is a fundamental difference between theism and atheism, and it involves not only the nature of our existence, but how we came to be. That's a bridge you cannot gap without converting.
That's absolutely asinine.
Atheists and theist can't get along because they have fundamentally different belief systems?
So, Christians and Hindus can't get along either?
Republicans and Democrats can't get along?
What small-minded bullshit.
Wow, first of all, fuck you.
Second, that's not how I meant it. He was saying, if I was reading it correctly, that theists and atheists should agree on the origins. That's why he said "why can't we all come from the same place" comment, right? If I'm mistaken, I'm mistaken, but I obviously didn't mean that theists and atheists can't get along. I meant it in the argumentative sense.
Theists can't get along with me.
That would be nice but no. I would like the two sides stop their nonsense. Believe in God if you wish but for both camps it has to end right there, no need to go further.
As for reality....What I'm trying to say is that this is it, one reality. You can twist it and bend it or shape it anyway you want. You can even suggest or hypothesize other realities but we cannot ever find them because, and this is simple, once we are there it is our reality. Wherever we go, call it Heaven or Hell.... in whatever shape or form, call it life form or soul...we are always in our reality.
If God is to exist then He is in our reality. Even if He can magically communicate with us from His supposed reality to ours, once the connection is made that reality becomes ours. For us there is but one reality.
Early explorers were once thought of as Gods by certain peoples they met along the way. Gods from another reality you might say but in the end it was all the same.
God is only mysterious because He hasn't showed up yet.
God seems to me to be a greater deity than I first imagined.
The more I learn, the more I contemplate existence and the greater a being I see God to be.
My reasoning is that God may be a sun to an uncivilized native but once educated it would no longer be a God to him.
Some of what I once thought of as Godlike actions I am now able to do myself so MY GOD is a far greater being to me than I imagined previously.
As far as others beliefs I really do not care too much about. When I am buying my petrol from a china man I do not care who he believes in as long as his till gives me correct change.
My two pence worth...
The more I learn, the more I contemplate existence and the greater a being I see God to be.
My reasoning is that God may be a sun to an uncivilized native but once educated it would no longer be a God to him.
Some of what I once thought of as Godlike actions I am now able to do myself so MY GOD is a far greater being to me than I imagined previously.
As far as others beliefs I really do not care too much about. When I am buying my petrol from a china man I do not care who he believes in as long as his till gives me correct change.
My two pence worth...
PsychoticEpisode
Its obvious that we are simply discussing an issue of theory (I mean its not like you are seriously interested in applying yourself to evidencing god's nature ... rather you feel more comfortable discussing issues of logic that surround the issue)
At this point, I feel the question is "On what basis do you make this premise?" since the dominant premise for god is the exact opposite (namely that everything came into being because of god ... much like smoke comes into being because of fire, or sunlight comes into being because of the sun or clouds of vapourized water comes into being from smokers etc etc)
so you want to argue that the sun or smokers do not have contingent potencies?
no need
Its obvious that we are simply discussing an issue of theory (I mean its not like you are seriously interested in applying yourself to evidencing god's nature ... rather you feel more comfortable discussing issues of logic that surround the issue)
At this point, I feel the question is "On what basis do you make this premise?" since the dominant premise for god is the exact opposite (namely that everything came into being because of god ... much like smoke comes into being because of fire, or sunlight comes into being because of the sun or clouds of vapourized water comes into being from smokers etc etc)
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so you want to argue that the sun or smokers do not have contingent potencies?
It's just that I've never seen sunsmoke nor do I expect to. I've never had a campfire beneath the lake either.
It goes hand in hand with my reality rant. If me or you can access the other reality(ies) then it is still our reality. There is no such thing as a separate reality for me or you. However if God is in His own little reality, then in order to keep it He can't leave it, especially to come here. If He does then He has made a connection to us thus negating the separation. Heaven, hell, soul land or whatever is in store for us is simply nothing special as far as serparate realities go. If I or you can get there then it is our reality. Same for God, ours is His, there is no distinction. Ergo God, man and the universe will share the same beginning, the beginning of it all.
there are however contingent realities - like smoke from fire, heat from the sun, etc etc
why not?
Its kind of like saying that you can't place a fire in a smokey room
hence contingency enables simultaneous oneness and difference
linear time is also a contingent potency of god
LG, why don't you think God could have emanated from the beginning? Having nothing to do with creation would probably make God more believable
Having a god that cannot surmount inherent difficulties posed by linear time makes for something more unbelievable ..... mainly because you have a god that is simply like you and me (ie fallible)
I don't think God should have any contingent potencies. Why would He need them? If He is all powerful and what not why would anything labelled contingent be associated with Him.? I think knowing it all kind of foregoes any contingencies, whether something happens or not should have already been considered. By indicating God has potencies contingent upon what may or may not happen suggests that God has not yet reached His full potential and that is purely theoretical also.
Are you saying God has a hidden reserve of power He is prepared to use if the situation dictates? This would not make sense. Yes, an unused arsenal still has potential but for God everything should be known to Him and warehousing His strengths for eventualities that may or may not occur seems rather odd. Contingent potency is hardly a term meant for a God in my estimation. God's potential should be fixed but you think that just in case He needs more to deal with an unseen(?) happenstance He is able to draw more if required.
LG, you make God seem like one of us everyday.
Are you saying God has a hidden reserve of power He is prepared to use if the situation dictates? This would not make sense. Yes, an unused arsenal still has potential but for God everything should be known to Him and warehousing His strengths for eventualities that may or may not occur seems rather odd. Contingent potency is hardly a term meant for a God in my estimation. God's potential should be fixed but you think that just in case He needs more to deal with an unseen(?) happenstance He is able to draw more if required.
LG, you make God seem like one of us everyday.
I think it would be kind of hard to assume anything about any supreme being's potential attributes, considering that, as far as we know, it would have to exist separately from our reality. That is to say, a creator wouldn't have a house on Pluto; it would have to be in a realm where the creation of a universe is possible, so all of the laws could potentially be vastly different, which means that the limitations of a being could be vastly different.
I guess it boils down to the fact that you draw something when you don't know what it looks like.
I guess it boils down to the fact that you draw something when you don't know what it looks like.
anything that has power (even a light bulb) has contingent potencies
I'm not sure you understand the implications of contingency. For instance, suppose a light bulb had consciousness, it could control its contingent potencies according to its desire (ie it could illuminate an enclosed room or shroud it in darkness).
The very nature of a potency being contingent means that it is controlled by something beyond itself (for instance, the phenomena of illumination in a dark room is controlled by the light bulb)
because all power (even that of lightbulbs) is contingent on god, he has resources at his command that we cannot dream of approaching. Its not really a case of it being hidden, or god having a "reserve" of power on hand for difficult circumstances - rather it is a case of god being designated as that person whom all power is contingent upon.
on the contrary, designating god as something that has no contingent potencies makes for a god that is less potent than a clod of dirt
actually it is explained that there are three categories of god's potencies
one is the external energy (or the "material" world of inert matter)
another is the internal energy (or the "spiritual" world of eternity, knowledge and bliss)
and the last is the marginal energy (or the separated part and parcels of god, the living entities with minute independence ... who sometimes find themselves in the internal and sometimes in the external energy according to their desire and independence)
For god, there is no distinction between these energies - IOW engineering a personal abode (aka something associated within the internal energy) on pluto (something associated with the external energy) is easily tenable. In fact that is how one essentially makes spiritual advancement - with out fail we come to this world, we come to this world in a mood of exploiting god's energy (hence we get given the material world to play with) - when we realize the futility of that and start utilizing the external energy in the service of god rather than ourselves, it qualifies for the internal energy.
Hence
SB 10.87.22 When this human body is used for Your devotional service, it acts as one's self, friend and beloved. But unfortunately, although You always show mercy to the conditioned souls and affectionately help them in every way, and although You are their true Self, people in general fail to delight in You. Instead they commit spiritual suicide by worshiping illusion. Alas, because they persistently hope for success in their devotion to the unreal, they continue to wander about this greatly fearful world, assuming various degraded bodies.