Are God's Creations Real?

[PsychoticEpisode]

The story goes that at some point God was alone in His world and He decided to end His solitude by creating a place with little monkey people to live in it. In reality, we and everything else are a thought element. In fact you could say we essentially exist because God thought of us.

Technically speaking then, God is still alone, a God with His thoughts. Can God be any other way should He exist? So if God exists then nothing else does, for God in this case should be the only reality, a total non fabrication, the true package.

However.......

Being fabricated by God from out of nothingness could mean that we and everything else are still nothing, or not real as if a part of a dream. For us to exist then we have to be on par with God, or at least have arrived on the scene at the same time as co-tenants in the universe. We must be completely 100% seperate from God in order to be real. Only then can we attempt to prove or acknowledge God's existence.

That would mean God had nothing to do with our being here. It does not make Him our Lord and Master(as Creator) since we had to have come into being together, in order to be real.

I can't possibly be real if I come from nothing. I have trouble getting over this hurdle everytime I think of a creator God, the old something from nothing. I either came here together with God or I made Him up once I arrived. God can only be real if I didn't make Him up. Thus God did not create. We deserve to be here as much as God, if He exists at all. There is more of a reason for me to be real than God.

 

[Mr. Hamtastic]

Nope. You do not exist. This is actually just a very detailed game of Sims 2.

 

[one_raven]

Even if we are just figments of imagination inside God's head, if he created us with free will then we are effectively real - as he created us to be beyond his control.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

1st, it must be proven that god is real.
No matter how powerful a being may be, they can't get something from nothing. Thus if only 1 being exists & makes something, it has to be made from the being itself. God took a "rib" from itself.

 

[one_raven]

1st, it must be proven that god is real.

Why must it be proven that God is real to have a philosophical discussion regarding what the nature of a creator God may be?

No matter how powerful a being may be, they can't get something from nothing.
Thus if only 1 being exists & makes something, it has to be made from the being itself. God took a "rib" from itself.

1.) How can you be so sure?
2.) Perhaps the building blocks always existed, and God was the one to get the ball rolling. Perhaps many things - that's the point of these discussions, in my opinion.

Imagine, for example, there was nothing but an infinite sea of an infinite number of the one fundamental particle, just watiting for the first spark of energy.
That first spark of energy would come from God's consciousness.

 

[lightgigantic]

The story goes that at some point God was alone in His world and He decided to end His solitude by creating a place with little monkey people to live in it. In reality, we and everything else are a thought element. In fact you could say we essentially exist because God thought of us.

As far as I am aware, the story is that god has numerous eternal contingent potencies - this material world is one, the spiritual world is another and we (who find ourselves either in the material or spiritual world) are a third

Technically speaking then, God is still alone, a God with His thoughts.

... or more correctly, a god with his potencies

Can God be any other way should He exist? So if God exists then nothing else does, for God in this case should be the only reality, a total non fabrication, the true package.

even a casual study of ontology reveals numerous ways and means to determine the greater and lesser aspects of "reality"

However.......

Being fabricated by God from out of nothingness could mean that we and everything else are still nothing, or not real as if a part of a dream.

if we are "fabricated" from god, why are we fabricated from nothing?

For us to exist then we have to be on par with God, or at least have arrived on the scene at the same time as co-tenants in the universe.

...hence the "eternal contingent potency" part of the story

We must be completely 100% seperate from God in order to be real. Only then can we attempt to prove or acknowledge God's existence.

the interesting thing about a contingent potency is that it is simultaneously one yet different from the cause (called "acintya bedabeda tattva in sanskrit. For instance take smoke as a contingent potency of fire. There is no question of smoke unless there is fire (so it is one with fire), yet smoke displays qualities that are distinct from fire - eg you can't cook with it - (so it is different from fire)

That would mean God had nothing to do with our being here. It does not make Him our Lord and Master(as Creator) since we had to have come into being together, in order to be real.

I can't possibly be real if I come from nothing. I have trouble getting over this hurdle everytime I think of a creator God, the old something from nothing. I either came here together with God or I made Him up once I arrived. God can only be real if I didn't make Him up. Thus God did not create. We deserve to be here as much as God, if He exists at all. There is more of a reason for me to be real than God.

the problem is already solved kiddo

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

Why must it be proven that God is real to have a philosophical discussion regarding what the nature of a creator God may be?
.

To reach a valid answer to the question, it can't be assumed there's a god.
But I didn't say we couldn't have a discussion from the premise that there is a god. Obviously, I made a step in that direction.

1.) How can you be so sure?
2.) Perhaps the building blocks always existed, and God was the one to get the ball rolling. Perhaps many things - that's the point of these discussions, in my opinion.

Imagine, for example, there was nothing but an infinite sea of an infinite number of the one fundamental particle, just watiting for the first spark of energy.
That first spark of energy would come from God's consciousness.

I see now I wasn't quite clear enough. I should've said (& I meant) if nothing exists but the 1 being. I did say no something from NOTHING tho.

 

[one_raven]

The question still stands...
You said it doesn't matter how powerful the being is.
How can you be so sure that a sufficiently powerful being coul dnot create something out of nothing?

Assuming the being does exist, that presumes that energy must also exist and some claim that energy is the fundamental aspcet of all matter.
What IS nothing, anyway.
If space existed for the being to exist in, does space itself have a fasbric of existence?

I think there are quite a few scenarios that could be reasonable, once you accept, if just for the sake of argument, that a creator God was the first thing to exist.

 

[Leo Volont]

Everyone should be a bit familiar with Sanskrit Philosophy... just so we don't have so many cases of people attempting, so to speak, to re-invent the wheel all the time. so much of what people struggle to think up themselves is already commonplace to little children in the Sanskrit Tradition.

Religion is a matter of viewpoint. Advaita, or Unity, is sort of a Mystical View that there is only One... no separation or duality is perceived. Spiritually it is a very High place to be, but in the actual World Advaita people come off as extremely Autistic... unless you have a good sense of the difference between one's own self and body from those of others, then it becomes difficult to hold down a job and pay the bills.

So most people see things in terms of Duality. God still exists within Duality, but in a Transcendent Sphere where all relationship resolves into Unity.

But the moment where any Subject or Object is distinguished as separate, then the Framework of Duality comes into play.

Notice that the Universe is the Same in either case. Only the Psychology of Perception and Viewpoint change.

Perfectly, or rather, Most Practically, one should be able to glimpse the Transcendent Advaita Unity once in awhile... this is called God Realization. It is what ALL mystics had done, at least once. But then one must return to the view of Duality in order to function.

You know, it IS a bit more than just viewpoint. The Experience of Oneness is often expansive... going beyond one's own borders. I remember a friend I had met in India. He had sat for Meditation but soon stirred. He asked that I follow him. About a half a mile away, where we had not been all day, there was a cow tangled up in his rope, and his water bucket had been knocked over. He got the cow some water. he explained that in his Meditation he had expanded out and had felt himself as the struggling thirsty cow.

Even out of trance that guy was sort of Hooked In. I remember him arguing with the Taxi Drivers over the smallest differences in pricing, and so I gave the Cabbies a nod and a wind behind my friends back indicating that they were to seem to break down and give up and let my friend believe he had won the argument, and I would pay the slight difference myself. They did a wonderful job, surrendering surely but not too quickly. At first my friend was delighted with himself. Then we went to tea. It must have been a half an hour later when my friend suddenly blirted out "You signalled the cabbies to give in and you planned to pay the difference yourself, didn't you?" Well, I just laughed in his face for being so petty... but he clearly had some insight into things which was most easily explained by supposing that he had a great deal of fluidity in his 'personal' boundaries.

The story goes that at some point God was alone in His world and He decided to end His solitude by creating a place with little monkey people to live in it. In reality, we and everything else are a thought element. In fact you could say we essentially exist because God thought of us.

Technically speaking then, God is still alone, a God with His thoughts. Can God be any other way should He exist? So if God exists then nothing else does, for God in this case should be the only reality, a total non fabrication, the true package.

However.......

Being fabricated by God from out of nothingness could mean that we and everything else are still nothing, or not real as if a part of a dream. For us to exist then we have to be on par with God, or at least have arrived on the scene at the same time as co-tenants in the universe. We must be completely 100% seperate from God in order to be real. Only then can we attempt to prove or acknowledge God's existence.

That would mean God had nothing to do with our being here. It does not make Him our Lord and Master(as Creator) since we had to have come into being together, in order to be real.

I can't possibly be real if I come from nothing. I have trouble getting over this hurdle everytime I think of a creator God, the old something from nothing. I either came here together with God or I made Him up once I arrived. God can only be real if I didn't make Him up. Thus God did not create. We deserve to be here as much as God, if He exists at all. There is more of a reason for me to be real than God.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

No matter how powerful a being may be, they can't get something from nothing. Thus if only 1 being exists & makes something, it has to be made from the being itself.

Agree. The only resource available would be part or all of God himself unless He wasn't the only thing floating around out there. Somehow I think this is where theists will claim that what actually occurred is beyond our comprehension.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

As far as I am aware, the story is that god has numerous eternal contingent potencies - this material world is one, the spiritual world is another and we (who find ourselves either in the material or spiritual world) are a third


... or more correctly, a god with his potencies

even a casual study of ontology reveals numerous ways and means to determine the greater and lesser aspects of "reality"

if we are "fabricated" from god, why are we fabricated from nothing?

...hence the "eternal contingent potency" part of the story

What I tell ya. The story of God isn't as simple as it once was. I'm sure during the last few thousand years that the ordinary slob spent countless sleepless nights worrying about God's eternal contingent potency. God better start worrying about our intelligence lest we find out about Him.

LG, I'm happy that you're getting a chance to access the glossary of terms book that's been collecting dust on your bookshelf.

the problem is already solved kiddo

Yaayyy! What problem? There's a problem?

 

[Balerion]

I can't possibly be real if I come from nothing

I'm no theist, but I fail to see how this is a logical statement. Assuming there is a God, why would being created from nothing make you any less real? Perhaps to come from nothing is nothing more than a prerequisite of being real. As in, you must come from nothing? If he created you, then you are real...that is how I'd work that logic, anyway.

Also, assuming there is a God, what is to make you think that you were created from nothing? Maybe God used some exotic mixture of...whatever the heck...to create you? I mean, there are plenty of logical arguments against the existence of the Abrahamic God, but I think you're going about it all wrong.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

If he created you, then you are real...that is how I'd work that logic, anyway.

I'd question that logic.

The something from nothing factor is a difficult concept to accept for theists and atheists alike. Whether you're talking God's origin or that of the universe.

Is a thought real? Sure I guess, but there is a difference between the thinker and the idea. The thinker is real in the conventional sense, made of substance & occupying space whereas the thought does neither. I was simply trying to emphasize that we are God's thoughts and if God is real then what does it make us? Essentially, if a causal God's ideas are manifest then we are of a different reality, something you alluded to.

For myself, there can only be one reality. If you believe God is real then that is reality. The only way God's reality and ours can work is if everything originated from the same beginning moment. Therefore we are no different than God as far as being real. We are not His thoughts.

I'm just trying to introduce something different into the age old arguments. Why couldn't everything have had the same origin? Theists can still believe in God & atheists can still not believe in God even if we all came from the same place. God could still exist but He would be drastically different than what is commonly portrayed. God just might be some smart guy laying claim to divine status. Then again He could be our idea.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

The question still stands...
You said it doesn't matter how powerful the being is.
How can you be so sure that a sufficiently powerful being coul dnot create something out of nothing?

Assuming the being does exist, that presumes that energy must also exist and some claim that energy is the fundamental aspcet of all matter.
What IS nothing, anyway.
If space existed for the being to exist in, does space itself have a fasbric of existence?

I think there are quite a few scenarios that could be reasonable, once you accept, if just for the sake of argument, that a creator God was the first thing to exist.

Nothing is NO THING. No matter, no light, no energy, no antimatter, no atoms, no protons or electrons, no quarks, no strange matter, no life, no souls or spirits, no gods, no black holes, no singularity, no anything.
Assuming 1 being exists doesn't assume energy also exists but if we start with that, it means SOME THING exists other than that being. The being uses that energy to "create".
No, space does not have a fabric. Space isn't made of anything. It's simply the 3D area in which things exist. Saying space is made of something is saying area is made of something.

 

[one_raven]

Nothing is NO THING. No matter, no light, no energy, no antimatter, no atoms, no protons or electrons, no quarks, no strange matter, no life, no souls or spirits, no gods, no black holes, no singularity, no anything.

Then that's a simple, pointless contradiction, because if nothing existed, that one being could not exist.
If that one being did exist, then it had to exist somewhere - therfore spoace existed.

No, space does not have a fabric. Space isn't made of anything. It's simply the 3D area in which things exist. Saying space is made of something is saying area is made of something.

Prove it.

Assuming 1 being exists doesn't assume energy also exists but if we start with that, it means SOME THING exists other than that being.

Of course it does.


"The Universe" implies all that exists, but we couldn't possibly know all that exists, so the term is rather silly and no different than postulating a God - at the very least, it could be a misnomer.
Given that, there is no way we can know whether we live in a snow-dome of sorts and God could hold "The Universe" in thepalm of his hand.
If you place stuff in an empty container, that is creating matter, from the perspective of the inside of the snow-dome universe.
Those who claim nothing existed before the "Big Bang" are rather silly and deluded, in my opinion.

 

[one_raven]

No matter how powerful a being may be, they can't get something from nothing.

You never answered...

Can you qualify this statement?

 

[lightgigantic]

What I tell ya. The story of God isn't as simple as it once was. I'm sure during the last few thousand years that the ordinary slob spent countless sleepless nights worrying about God's eternal contingent potency. God better start worrying about our intelligence lest we find out about Him.

its kind of amusing the way you inflate things

LG, I'm happy that you're getting a chance to access the glossary of terms book that's been collecting dust on your bookshelf.

I think its time you started worrying about your intelligence

Yaayyy! What problem? There's a problem?

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

“ Originally Posted by StrangerInAStrangeLa
Nothing is NO THING. No matter, no light, no energy, no antimatter, no atoms, no protons or electrons, no quarks, no strange matter, no life, no souls or spirits, no gods, no black holes, no singularity, no anything. ”

one raven --- Then that's a simple, pointless contradiction, because if nothing existed, that one being could not exist.
If that one being did exist, then it had to exist somewhere - therfore spoace existed.

====The OP strongly implies nothing exists except 1 being. You thought I blocked the discussion by saying 1st we need to prove god exists. Now you don't accept the OP for the purpose of discussion?


“ Originally Posted by StrangerInAStrangeLa
No, space does not have a fabric. Space isn't made of anything. It's simply the 3D area in which things exist. Saying space is made of something is saying area is made of something. ”

one raven --- Prove it.

====Prove what???


“ Originally Posted by StrangerInAStrangeLa
Assuming 1 being exists doesn't assume energy also exists but if we start with that, it means SOME THING exists other than that being. ”

one raven --- Of course it does.

====HUH???


one raven --- "The Universe" implies all that exists, but we couldn't possibly know all that exists, so the term is rather silly and no different than postulating a God - at the very least, it could be a misnomer.

====The Universe implies all that exists within this plane. It could be that all we presently "see" is the whole universe but we have no way of knowing & it seems extremely unlikely. It was once thought the Milky Way was all there is. Maybe in 20 years, we'll see galaxies 60 billion light years away & in 50 years we'll see things 800 trillion light years away. Perhaps the universe consists of a googol of cosmi, 1 of which is what we now call the universe & the closest other cosmi to ours is 444 trillion googolplex light years away & we'll never see it in a billion years. For the foreseeable future, at the least, applying the universe to what we can detect is rather silly.

one raven --- Given that, there is no way we can know whether we live in a snow-dome of sorts and God could hold "The Universe" in thepalm of his hand.
If you place stuff in an empty container, that is creating matter, from the perspective of the inside of the snow-dome universe.

====Perspective has nothing to do with it. Either something exists or nothing exists. Either 1 being & nothing else exists or 1 being & something else exists. Regardless of whether matter is coming from a parallel universe or a higher universe that ours popped out of or whatever 1 might come up with. Either something exists other than the 1 being or it doesn't. If we detect matter coming into this universe from a reverse black hole, it would be silly to say it's being created.

one raven --- Those who claim nothing existed before the "Big Bang" are rather silly and deluded, in my opinion

====I could not agree more. Except I'd say it's ABSURD. And I wouldn’t say “in my opinion”.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

one raven --- 2.) Perhaps the building blocks always existed, and God was the one to get the ball rolling. Perhaps many things - that's the point of these discussions, in my opinion.

====Those building blocks are not nothing. Many things are not nothing.

one raven --- Imagine, for example, there was nothing but an infinite sea of an infinite number of the one fundamental particle, just watiting for the first spark of energy.
That first spark of energy would come from God's consciousness.

====That 1st spark of energy is part of god. An infinite sea of infinite fundamental particles is not nothing.

one raven --- Assuming the being does exist, that presumes that energy must also exist

====That energy is not nothing.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

Off topic remarks coming...read at own risk!

its kind of amusing the way you inflate things........
I think its time you started worrying about your intelligence.

I'll start worrying about my intelligence when theists start making sense.

For instance take smoke as a contingent potency of fire. There is no question of smoke unless there is fire (so it is one with fire), yet smoke displays qualities that are distinct from fire - eg you can't cook with it - (so it is different from fire)

Where is the smoke from the Sun? Where is the fire in deep ocean vents(smokers).

You're hung up on proverbial philosophical linquistics. I know it makes you feel smart to be able to exhibit your use of analogy, similes & metaphor but sometimes I wonder if you could just go beyond that for even a moment. I'd like to hear one idea from you that isn't contained in your database of things you know(of).

Lg, my idea is simple. God, should He exist, came into being with everything else. A natural birth I suppose.

Are you going to tell me there is no evidence of this?