Straw Man depiction of Christians, and thus not a very good argument. Proselytising Christians of the kind found frequently on these pages sure talk about "the only way to be Saved is to believe in Jesus", but I don't pretend to assume that their only motivation to be Christians and to love Jesus is fear of eternal torment or on their own desire for eternal life. History is full of Christians who did act selflessly, not through a desire to avoid Hell, but through a wish to follow Jesus's example. And history is also full of non-Christians who have done the same for similar reasons. "Christians do what God tells them to do in order to please God. That's selfish." Maybe it's just hero-worship, a perfectly normal human characteristic. Maybe it's through a genuine desire for self-improvement. Maybe its simply following a good example.Joeman said:Jesus preached selfless love in the bible, but I wonder if Christians are capable of doing what he preached.
Selfless means a person do something but except nothing in return.
Christians have to love God and love people so that they can get to heaven. That sounds awfully selfish. Christians do what God tells them to do in order to please God. That's selfish.
I'm not a Christian, and I don't believe in God. Sometimes, particularly in a place like this, it's easy fall prey to the illusion that every single Christian is a fundamentalist who wants to destroy childrens education by dictatorially imposing a Creationist ideology, or who will "argue" by inserting circular references to the Bible's importance and infallibility taken from the Bible itself. But the fact remains that there are many Christians all round the world doing important work in charitable fields, helping the poor, the sick and the needy. And they are not doing those things in order to avoid hell, any more than a charitable Jew, or a charitable Muslim or a charitable atheist would be.
Jesus's actual existence is kind of irrelevant.M*W: There is no proof that Jesus ever existed, so there is no proof that he ever preached anything. I believe Jesus to be just a myth, so there is nothing in the bible that Jesus actually said.
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You only have to read the Acts of the Apostles and the letters of Paul to realise that clearly Jesus was not Paul's fictional creation. Paul actually had arguments with Christian founders who actually knew Jesus. If anyone invented Jesus, they did, but Paul could not have. Then there's the second half of your sentence which seems to display symptoms of some kind of aphasia. The "collective 16-25 dying demigod saviors"?? M*W, I hope you're not having a stroke! Again, irrelevant to any argument as to the selflessness or otherwise of actual Christians.M*W: The NT was written and influenced by Paul of Tarsus who based his fictional character, Jesus, on the collective 16-25 dying demigod saviors who preceded him.
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You do keep bringing this New Age sun worship crap into everything. Really, who cares if the elements how people worship Christ originates in sun-worship? Maybe they do, but that's for a valid discussion of its own, and once only. Nobody who thinks of Christ is consciously paying homage to the Sun God Ra, nor does the Sun actually effect what they believe.Joeman: Christians have to love God and love people so that they can get to heaven. That sounds awefully selfish. Christians do what God tells them to do in order to please God. That's selfish.
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M*W: Christians love who they believe to be their creator, and yes, this is selfishly convenient for them. God, however, I believe is the Sun who has been anthropomorphized through human history.
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*Yawn* What on earth does Heliopolis, Egypt and sun worship have anything to do with Joeman's point? He's talking about the nature of real selfless love, not the cultural origins of Hell.Joeman: Selfless love is more like people who knew they are going to hell but still do good things and expect nothing in return.
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M*W: Your analogy is true. Hell is taken from the city in Egypt called Heliopolis. Early humans feared and awed the Sun. It was the Sun who created and sustains life, but the Sun gives no judgment to mankind except in their own frail minds.
No, indeed! Instead of an argument, we get an unwanted and utterly irrelevant airing of "the Medicine*Woman version of Christian history", with some side notes on what a douchebag Paul was, for the umpteenth time.[M*W]: You won't find an argument from me here.